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On My Replacement

bsh1
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2/9/2016 1:45:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think any and all discussion about how I am replaced, and the list of potential future mods for the series, should be public.

I also think BOTH camps, for the sake of compromise and amicability, should be able to decide who makes up that group of moderators. I think, perhaps, that a 3 person committee should be impaneled, with one person from each camp and a bipartisan pick, for the purpose of choosing 5 moderators to be the "pool" of moderators who will oversee the series on a rotating system.

It is quite clear to me that FT and F16 should be disqualified from being part of the "pool," though not the panel. Several members have voiced objections to their conduct over the last few days, and I think these objections should be taken seriously. I will also--at least for some time--do not intend to be a part of this pool either.

I think a good panel might be myself, F16 or FT, and Saph. Saph has shown a great willingness to compromise and work with people, and she would be an excellent neutral party. This group of three could then choose the 5 moderators of the pool.
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 1:50:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I also believe that there should be NO FURTHER CHANGES without public, community debate from the model that was agreed to in the earlier threads, namely Saph's two-game system.
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BlazingRodent
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2/9/2016 1:53:32 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:45:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I think any and all discussion about how I am replaced, and the list of potential future mods for the series, should be public.

I also think BOTH camps, for the sake of compromise and amicability, should be able to decide who makes up that group of moderators. I think, perhaps, that a 3 person committee should be impaneled, with one person from each camp and a bipartisan pick, for the purpose of choosing 5 moderators to be the "pool" of moderators who will oversee the series on a rotating system.

It is quite clear to me that FT and F16 should be disqualified from being part of the "pool," though not the panel. Several members have voiced objections to their conduct over the last few days, and I think these objections should be taken seriously. I will also--at least for some time--do not intend to be a part of this pool either.

I think a good panel might be myself, F16 or FT, and Saph. Saph has shown a great willingness to compromise and work with people, and she would be an excellent neutral party. This group of three could then choose the 5 moderators of the pool.

This is a pretty good idea :)
Cobalt
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2/9/2016 1:53:51 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I agree.

ER has been quite active regarding this issue from the bsh camp. If a panel was to be established, ER would make an excellent member.
bsh1
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2/9/2016 1:54:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:53:51 AM, Cobalt wrote:
I agree.

ER has been quite active regarding this issue from the bsh camp. If a panel was to be established, ER would make an excellent member.

I concur.
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EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 1:57:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
A mod for a beginner's series needs to be willing to commit to a long and even exhaustive activity. A mod needs to be active and engaged. More importantly, however, a mod needs to be approachable. They need to be someone who can communicate civilly and in a positive manner with both experienced and prospective players.

I think we can unanimously agree that Saph has earned a spot in the table of rotating mods. I'm fine with her being both a panelist and one of the mods.

In terms of other mods, there aren't many that are both active and approachable. I think Smithers or Maikuru would be excellent choices, but they're both relatively inactive and takes long breaks from DDO.

If he's willing, I also think Solon could be an excellent mod to enter the rotation.
bsh1
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2/9/2016 2:03:18 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I can think of several people who would make good beginners' mods if willing, and I think these are agreeable people, too. But, I think that the ultimate shortlist of moderators should be decided in a balanced, democratic, committee. I dislike the idea of nebulous negotiations (I reference here something Endark posted awhile ago) where the exact parties to these talks are unknown to the community and potentially not balanced, and where the process may not be democratic.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Vaarka
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2/9/2016 2:03:19 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:45:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I think any and all discussion about how I am replaced, and the list of potential future mods for the series, should be public.

I also think BOTH camps, for the sake of compromise and amicability, should be able to decide who makes up that group of moderators. I think, perhaps, that a 3 person committee should be impaneled, with one person from each camp and a bipartisan pick, for the purpose of choosing 5 moderators to be the "pool" of moderators who will oversee the series on a rotating system.

It is quite clear to me that FT and F16 should be disqualified from being part of the "pool," though not the panel. Several members have voiced objections to their conduct over the last few days, and I think these objections should be taken seriously. I will also--at least for some time--do not intend to be a part of this pool either.

I think a good panel might be myself, F16 or FT, and Saph. Saph has shown a great willingness to compromise and work with people, and she would be an excellent neutral party. This group of three could then choose the 5 moderators of the pool.

I like the idea, though I'm short on time and trying to type something else out. It's already pretty late where I am, and I've done very little homework, so I'll be brief.

Panel, sounds fine to me, as it creates a group of members who can oversee the possible pool of mods that will come in. I like your choices, as FT, F-16, and Sapph are all cut for it (as far as I can tell), though I don't see exactly why FT and F-16 shouldn't mod.

Oh well, back to reading DDO instead of doing homework I guess XP.
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 2:05:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 2:03:19 AM, Vaarka wrote:
though I don't see exactly why FT and F-16 shouldn't mod.

Several members, amidst all this drama, voiced concern over their conduct. There was a lot of blame to go around, including myself. But, to point to a specific answer, F16 insulted Chris for being 15. Since most beginners are teens, this doesn't exactly prove F16 can treat them with respect.

But, I am glad you endorse/like the panel idea.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Hayd
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2/9/2016 2:09:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:45:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I think any and all discussion about how I am replaced, and the list of potential future mods for the series, should be public.

I also think BOTH camps, for the sake of compromise and amicability, should be able to decide who makes up that group of moderators. I think, perhaps, that a 3 person committee should be impaneled, with one person from each camp and a bipartisan pick, for the purpose of choosing 5 moderators to be the "pool" of moderators who will oversee the series on a rotating system.

It is quite clear to me that FT and F16 should be disqualified from being part of the "pool," though not the panel. Several members have voiced objections to their conduct over the last few days, and I think these objections should be taken seriously. I will also--at least for some time--do not intend to be a part of this pool either.

I think a good panel might be myself, F16 or FT, and Saph. Saph has shown a great willingness to compromise and work with people, and she would be an excellent neutral party. This group of three could then choose the 5 moderators of the pool.

This seems like the best plan to move forward with, I support it.
1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 2:14:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Regardless, I disagree with the very notion that we should have a system to rotate mods. I think the negatives of it are way too overblown.
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lannan13
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2/9/2016 2:15:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:50:27 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I also believe that there should be NO FURTHER CHANGES without public, community debate from the model that was agreed to in the earlier threads, namely Saph's two-game system.

I agree with this,.
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1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 2:17:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
But if we have to go with the system, this is probably the best one, but I don't think there needs to be five moderators.
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 2:27:03 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 2:17:05 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
But if we have to go with the system, this is probably the best one, but I don't think there needs to be five moderators.

It could be less if any committee could not settle on that many, or felt fewer was wiser.
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Sapphique
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2/9/2016 2:49:56 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
So are we picking panel members right now, or potential mods, or...?
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

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bsh1
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2/9/2016 2:53:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 2:49:56 AM, Sapphique wrote:
So are we picking panel members right now, or potential mods, or...?

We should be selecting a committee of 3 people to decide who will be in the rotating pool of beginners' mods. I propose, re: this committee, either myself or Endark be included, that either FT or F16 be included, and that you be included.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/9/2016 2:54:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:45:50 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I think any and all discussion about how I am replaced, and the list of potential future mods for the series, should be public.

I also think BOTH camps, for the sake of compromise and amicability, should be able to decide who makes up that group of moderators. I think, perhaps, that a 3 person committee should be impaneled, with one person from each camp and a bipartisan pick, for the purpose of choosing 5 moderators to be the "pool" of moderators who will oversee the series on a rotating system.

It is quite clear to me that FT and F16 should be disqualified from being part of the "pool," though not the panel. Several members have voiced objections to their conduct over the last few days, and I think these objections should be taken seriously. I will also--at least for some time--do not intend to be a part of this pool either.

I think a good panel might be myself, F16 or FT, and Saph. Saph has shown a great willingness to compromise and work with people, and she would be an excellent neutral party. This group of three could then choose the 5 moderators of the pool.

I like the idea. It's a nice compromise.
Suh dude

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The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/9/2016 2:54:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 1:50:27 AM, bsh1 wrote:
I also believe that there should be NO FURTHER CHANGES without public, community debate from the model that was agreed to in the earlier threads, namely Saph's two-game system.

+1. Any policy change should be hashed out in a debate.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/9/2016 3:28:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
This is already in the works. I, FT, and a group of core mafia players are working on the details. It's not feasible for us to not mod beginner games. I know I will be at some point or the other.

This is not a political endeavor. This is not about appeasing both sides. This is about doing what's best for DDO mafia.

I'm disappointed that bsh1 continues to create a ruckus and acts in a destructive manner even after resigning from his post. What happens next is not your concern.

EndarkenedRationalist decided to quit mafia and 1harder apparently doesn't play anymore.

There are no "camps" here. Again, this isn't politics.
bsh1
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2/9/2016 3:46:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 3:28:00 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
This is already in the works. I, FT, and a group of core mafia players are working on the details. It's not feasible for us to not mod beginner games. I know I will be at some point or the other.

That's not sufficient. I am almost certain that this group is not bipartisan. Continuing on your path of partisanship, F16, is what is "destructive" for this community. Many users in this thread alone have expressed support for my plan. This is a good way to reconcile the divide that has been breached, and to ensure the widest possible basis of support for the series moving forward, so that it retains its legitimacy on the site.

This is not a political endeavor. This is not about appeasing both sides. This is about doing what's best for DDO mafia.

This is the voice of someone who can only see one side of the coin, and refuses to admit that the other side even exists. "What's best for DDO mafia" is clearly a matter of opinion, yet you talk about it as if it is objective and obvious fact. There is room for disagreement, though you've repeatedly failed to acknowledge this, preferring instead to assume that the opinions of yourself and FT are necessarily correct.

Given that there is a gulf on the site, negotiation and compromise are necessary, unless it is your desire to alienate a huge chunk of the community, which it seems you've already done superbly. It will be good for DDO mafia to heal the divisions, and this proposal is a good place to begin, though I doubt it is sufficient. It allows both groups to have a say in the pathway forward.

I'm disappointed that bsh1 continues to create a ruckus and acts in a destructive manner even after resigning from his post. What happens next is not your concern.

I was not aware that calling for a fairly transparent, impartial panel--i.e. compromise--was "destructive." You'll note that many members have commented here voicing their support for this bipartisan route.

And, as a member of the mafia community, what happens next is certainly my concern.

F16, your response above is misrepresentative of the facts, highly uncompromising, dismissive of many members of the community who feel a bipartisan committee is best, and certainly dismissive of me.

EndarkenedRationalist decided to quit mafia and 1harder apparently doesn't play anymore.

Endark is still involved in and a part of this community. And rather than merely accepting his departure of it, were your chief concern the welfare of the community, I would've thought that you'd try to move forward in a bipartisan way in the hopes of bringing back or keeping disillusioned members such as him.

Harder does mod. You don't just have to play to be a member of this community. People like Drafter and TV rarely play anymore, but they do mod.

There are no "camps" here. Again, this isn't politics.

Camps is not, as you know, merely a political term. Anytime where there are groups of people with different, usually constrasting priorities or loyalties, there are camps. The threats of boycotts on one side, and you and FT being unrelenting in your demands on the other, form camps. This is self-evident.
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 3:54:53 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
"I, FT, and a group of core mafia players are working on the details."

I am also flabbergasted that any group of users thought it was okay--without seeking the mandate of the community--to meet together in secret and decide, by fiat, what would be done moving forward. This is not even remotely democratic. This is not even remotely transparent. This is not even remotely community-oriented. This is not even remotely conciliatory and divide-bridging. What this is, is "my way or the highway"-type action. For all the accusations leveled at me for this kind of dictatorial action, it is ironic to hear it now being employed by those that accused me.

Moreover, respect for the community should necessarily entail a respect for the diverse views of the community. This process disrespects the community by failing to respect the disagreement within it on a host of issues, by failing to include dissenters, and by attempting to push onto the community reforms and moderators it may not approve of.

F16 and FT's model here is to push onto the community their demands by presenting--fait accompli--a series set up and mod-list. They did not receive a community mandate through any kind of vote or conciliatory process to do this. This is unacceptable and divisive.
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 3:58:18 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Notice how FT is also try to otherize people from the community, or to exclude dissenters from who counts as the "DDO Mafia Community."

Rather than treat the concerns of myself, Endark, and Chris seriously, he attempts to point out why our opinions should not count in the first place. This is dangerous thinking.
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YamaVonKarma
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2/9/2016 4:01:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 3:58:18 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Notice how FT is also try to otherize people from the community, or to exclude dissenters from who counts as the "DDO Mafia Community."

Rather than treat the concerns of myself, Endark, and Chris seriously, he attempts to point out why our opinions should not count in the first place. This is dangerous thinking.

I've been saying this for months.
Glad it's become mainstream enough for you to acknowledge it.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
YamaVonKarma
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2/9/2016 4:02:14 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Well. Only the bit about players trying to exclude others from mafia. You're really choking yourself with that idea.
People who I've called as mafia DP1:
TUF, and YYW
bsh1
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2/9/2016 4:04:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
@F16 - Please answer these questions:

1. Are you willing to discuss the set-up for the series publicly?

2. Are you willing to publicly divulge the names of those working in your group, for the sake of transparency?

3. Are you willing to discuss the mod-list issue publicly?
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bsh1
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2/9/2016 4:11:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Supporters of My Proposals:

==================================

1. bsh1
2. BlazingRodent
3. Cobalt
4. EndarkenedRationalist
5. Vaarka
6. Hayd
7. Lannan13
8. 1harderthanyouthink
9. The-Voice-of-Truth
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
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Wylted
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2/9/2016 4:19:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Honestly, this stuff is so petty that people siding with BSH1 just stay quiet, many of them not even wanting to get in the middle by adding their name to this list, but people siding with BSH1 are probably atound 90% total
Wylted
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2/9/2016 4:20:49 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 4:11:28 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Supporters of My Proposals:

==================================

1. bsh1
2. BlazingRodent
3. Cobalt
4. EndarkenedRationalist
5. Vaarka
6. Hayd
7. Lannan13
8. 1harderthanyouthink
9. The-Voice-of-Truth
10. Wylted
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
bsh1
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2/9/2016 9:52:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
F16 has sinced informed me that: "There is no way I will support some political panel at the expense of quality of game."

What he is unwilling to recognize is simple: by excluding some groups of users, he has chosen to make this partisan. In order to heal the divisions that this drama has caused, we NEED a compromise panel such as this. It would represent all those concerned, including those users unsatisfied with the trajectory of those now attempting to autocratically dictate the terms of the series. This proposal is the best course of action.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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