Total Posts:16|Showing Posts:1-16
Jump to topic:

Moving Forward: The DDO beginner's series

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:06:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Several threads have cropped up in the past few days involving the beginner's series. Not all of them are accurate and some are misleading. I'll lay out a summary of what actually happened and the future of the beginner's series.

A proposal was made spearheaded by FT and me to revamp the beginners series and several people weighed in overwhelmingly in favor of our proposal. Bsh1 objected and FT continued to push the merits of the proposal arguing that it should be done with or without bsh1. While the community was divided on the issue of bsh1 leaving, there was far less debate about the fact that the beginner's series change proposals had a lot of merit. Bsh1 chose to resign from his position as sole moderator of the beginner's series rather than implement the changes prescribed by FT.

Now it fell upon us to take care of the changes ourselves and kickstart the series in a new direction. In the coming days, we'll be hard at work doing an overhaul of the beginner series and fine-tuning the changes needed. We're going to do this through PMs. We will lead this effort because we started it but in no way will it be some "exclusive club." If you are sincerely interested in helping shape the future of DDO mafia, you are welcome to send us a PM with your own ideas.

Part of the revamping of the series includes rotating the mods among a small group rather than have one constant. The current group includes me, FT, and Saph. We're all very qualified and moderators and since we are beginning this overhaul of the series, we will take the responsibility to help moderate it. We won't be the only ones though. This group may expand before the next series and I will be updating everyone with the expansions. If you would like to be added to the pool of rotating mods, send a PM to me and I will discuss with the group. If you have ideas on how to improve the series, shoot me a PM.

I will very quickly address the numerous other threads that have cropped up. Contrary to the impression they may give you, improving mafia on DDO is not a political game with parties. Bsh1 has resigned specifying that he will be taking a break from DDO mafia while vehemently arguing against the revamping. That's a perfectly acceptable position to take and I therefore don't expect him to be a part of the revamping. In the far future, when bsh1 returns, he can discuss with the group of people modding the game and be added to the list like everyone else. There are no "camps," "factions," or "sides." We're all on the same side here. We were divided about whether bsh1 should stay or go but he's left now and the issue is settled. Now we're all on the same side which is shaping DDO's mafia future.

"Boycotting" beginner games will only hurt the community. There are some elements of chaos that don't care about mafia on DDO but only care about sabotaging our efforts to move forward for motivations that only they fully know. There is little doubt that revamping the series is what the DDO community wants. And with the previous mod resigning, we will revamp it. The way to be constructive is to help us achieve this goal, not sabotage our efforts. If you have a personal problem with anyone, talk to them through PM. Trying to sabotage our efforts isn't going to hurt us, it will hurt the DDO community and the beginners who are trying to learn games. Don't encourage this behavior.

FT and I got into several heated arguments as a project of this caliber demands but we maintained a code of conduct. If you are curious about anything said about either of us, go to the source (http://www.debate.org...) and read for yourself. It's a long thread but reading in context is invaluable.

Moving forward, help us build this beginner's series and churn out competitive players and revitalize DDO mafia. I'll keep everyone updated with our progress. I may not respond to replies in this thread since I fully expect some members to clutter it, protest, and sabotage (this is also one of the reasons we can't hash out the details in public) and I have no intention of participating in a flame war. Your reply may get lost in the mess that this thread will become. If you want a guaranteed response, the way to do that is to send a PM.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:14:06 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
A tl:dr summary: FT and I proposed that the beginner's series be revamped in a big way. Many agreed that they wanted to see changes. So, we're going ahead and doing it. If you sincerely want to help and haven't engaged in destructive behavior, you are very welcome to get on board. This isn't country club with anyone having exclusive rights. Someone has to start a project. We did. If you want in, send us a PM and get working on it too.
Hoppi
Posts: 1,655
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:30:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Here's my proposal for sorting this out.

We have a roleless, balanced mafia game modded by Airmax. Anyone can join, including beginners. People alive at the end get to form the panel and make decisions about the beginners' series. They can do whatever they want, including canceling it and making beginners jump into regular games at the mods' discretion, or keep bsh1, or do whatever. That way, we get to have a big and emotionally high stakes game that would be awesome to watch.
Hoppi
Posts: 1,655
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:35:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Yeah, and we could repeat it every six months to coincide with the election of the president.

Haha this is the best solution by far. Recognize it!
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:35:29 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 8:06:02 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Several threads have cropped up in the past few days involving the beginner's series. Not all of them are accurate and some are misleading. I'll lay out a summary of what actually happened and the future of the beginner's series.

You make sound as if your personal interpretation of events is object.

A proposal was made spearheaded by FT and me to revamp the beginners series and several people weighed in overwhelmingly in favor of our proposal.

They weighed in in favor of elements of your proposal--particularly balance. But a few people, including Dalt, Solon, Endark, 1harder, Saph, and myself argued that preserving role madness was important, and some of us raised other points of disagreement.

Bsh1 objected and FT continued to push the merits of the proposal arguing that it should be done with or without bsh1. While the community was divided on the issue of bsh1 leaving, there was far less debate about the fact that the beginner's series change proposals had a lot of merit. Bsh1 chose to resign from his position as sole moderator of the beginner's series rather than implement the changes prescribed by FT.

This is not the case and blatantly misrepresents what happened. I agreed to a slew of changes before I resigned--including a compromise position that would include a M6 set-up and a role madness game. Rather than compromising of other legitimate points of disagreement, you and FT insisted on an all-or-nothing approach that sharply divided the community. This caused me to leave even earlier than I had originally intended, but only after I had expressed willingness to reach various other compromise points.

So, to say that I resigned rather than implement the changes is ridiculous. I agreed to implement virtually everything you asked for and that was still not good enough.

Now it fell upon us to take care of the changes ourselves and kickstart the series in a new direction.

In fact, it did not. You took it upon yourselves, when it should've been the responsibility of the entire community and not just a narrow group of those who already agreed with you. There is a difference between being given the duty and seizing it from the community.

In the coming days, we'll be hard at work doing an overhaul of the beginner series and fine-tuning the changes needed. We're going to do this through PMs. We will lead this effort because we started it but in no way will it be some "exclusive club." If you are sincerely interested in helping shape the future of DDO mafia, you are welcome to send us a PM with your own ideas.

This is, frankly, categorically unacceptable, and as long as this is the model you pursue I will support the boycott. This is demeaning towards everyone who disagrees or may disagree with your dictatorial decisions--which, oddly enough, was your objection towards me. You're basically saying "put your comments in the box, but you cannot actually be part of the negotiating team...we 'promise' to read the comments."

The current group includes me, FT, and Saph. We're all very qualified and moderators and since we are beginning this overhaul of the series, we will take the responsibility to help moderate it.

You and FT have no business being the beginners moderators. There are various reasons why this is the case, but multiple members have expressed dissatisfaction with your abrasive and condescending styles towards noobs and other players. There are qualified people who are also approachable.

What is more, you should not be dictating for the community who the mods are. If part of the purpose of having multiple mods was to prevent any one person from controlling it, then it seems odd that any one clique or faction or camp should also control the moderator position.

I will very quickly address the numerous other threads that have cropped up. Contrary to the impression they may give you, improving mafia on DDO is not a political game with parties.

Camps is not, as you know, merely a political term. Anytime where there are groups of people with different, usually constrasting priorities or loyalties, there are camps. The threats of boycotts on one side, and you and FT being unrelenting in your demands on the other, form camps. This is self-evident.

Bsh1 has resigned specifying that he will be taking a break from DDO mafia while vehemently arguing against the revamping. That's a perfectly acceptable position to take and I therefore don't expect him to be a part of the revamping.

I argued against your ideas, but that does not give you license to exclude me from the process. This is the kind of divisive, partisan activity that will split the mafia community. You must be inclusive--that is not optional.

"Boycotting" beginner games will only hurt the community.

Then you need to take the initiative to be more inclusive of those people. Here is what you are basically saying, F16, and it's quite imperious:

"I got to implement everything I wanted."
"Yeah, some people disagree. But I shouldn't meet them in the middle. I should just let them give into me."

There are some elements of chaos that don't care about mafia on DDO but only care about sabotaging our efforts to move forward for motivations that only they fully know.

Not elements of chaos, unless by chaos you mean dissent. Again, more autocratic sentiments.

Moving forward, help us build this beginner's series and churn out competitive players and revitalize DDO mafia. I'll keep everyone updated with our progress. I may not respond to replies in this thread since I fully expect some members to clutter it, protest, and sabotage (this is also one of the reasons we can't hash out the details in public) and I have no intention of participating in a flame war. Your reply may get lost in the mess that this thread will become. If you want a guaranteed response, the way to do that is to send a PM.

I will rescind my resignation unless you agree to the 3 person panel proposal I put forth. This is ridiculous. You cannot rule the mafia community by fiat, F16.

Moreover, respect for the community should necessarily entail a respect for the diverse views of the community. This process disrespects the community by failing to respect the disagreement within it on a host of issues, by failing to include dissenters, and by attempting to push onto the community reforms and moderators it may not approve of.

F16 and FT's model here is to push onto the community their demands by presenting--fait accompli--a series set up and mod-list. They did not receive a community mandate through any kind of vote or conciliatory process to do this. This is unacceptable and divisive.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 8:56:38 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Bsh1, I'm going to say this once. If you want to play micro-politics on this forum to the detriment of everyone, feel free. I just hope you understand that you are hurting the community you claim to want to help.

You've resigned and said you wanted to take a break. So, feel free to do that and when you return, we can add you to the list of rotating mods.

FT and I will take input from a diverse group of mafia players on DDO and will draw from players that have given a lot to the community. Anyone is welcome to join need only send a PM with their ideas.
Cobalt
Posts: 991
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 9:20:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Actually, F-16, Bsh is being completely reasonable. He's not playing "micro-politics".

The way you constructed the OP painted bsh as some failed leader with you and FT as rational, community-centric revolutionaries who only want to help. This is not an accurate representation of the situation.

Bsh admitted to his failings and agreed to a variety of changes, none of which were enough for you. That's fine, but to imply that bsh behaved in an unreasonable way or was unwillingly to compromise is a flat out lie.

You have to remember, this isn't 7th grade and rhetoric heavy arguments don't work. Anyone with half a brain can easily read what has transpired and come to the astounding conclusion that you and FT are attempting to unjustly hijack bsh's seat.

----------------------------------

I think bsh's resignation was a mistake and that he succumbed to pressure too quickly. But what's done is done.

Now we need to proceed in a reasonable way. This is a community game, so it only seems natural that we allow the community to decide the next BS mod. Bsh's suggestion of a panel is an excellent idea, as a mixed and balanced panel will more accurately reflect the will of the DDO community than your individual thoughts and opinions ever could.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 9:23:59 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
You don't have the full background here. FT and I proposed changes to the beginner's system which we plan to implement. There is no doubt that the majority saw these as meritorious regardless of their like or dislike for bsh1.

You are too caught up in an us vs them mentality. There is no such thing and therefore no need for a panel. We're all on the same side. Everybody is a part of this. If you want to work on improving the beginner's game rather than play politics, do it. FT and I started it and we're halfway through. You are welcome to join us through PM.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 9:56:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:23:59 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
You don't have the full background here. FT and I proposed changes to the beginner's system which we plan to implement. There is no doubt that the majority saw these as meritorious regardless of their like or dislike for bsh1.

This demeans Cobalt's ability to read the text. You invited people to read it so that they could understand what transpired. When they do and they disagree with your interpretation, they "don't have the full background."

You are too caught up in an us vs them mentality.

The best way to put this mentality to rest is to agree to the panel. It is the less controversial, most cooperation-driven model out there, that has been supported by at least 10 users, and maybe more will add their support.

Going with the 3 personal panel brings the community together and builds consensus. I assume that is what you want, and I think having this panel gets everyone there faster, with less intervaling drama.

I asked you three questions in the other thread which I would still like you to answer, but I would ask one more thing: why NOT do this proposal?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 10:02:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:58:03 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 2/9/2016 9:56:39 AM, bsh1 wrote:

Hi, I just sent you a PM. Discuss with me there.

I would prefer transparency. I dislike your method because--literally--you have refused to say who was in your group making these decisions (unless I missed it somewhere, if so link me). This undermines the idea that the process of selecting mods and finalizing the changes (which were already finalized, as far as I could tell) to the series, should be done in such a divisive and exclusive way is highly concerning to me.

Your model here is to push onto the community their demands by presenting--fait accompli--a series set up and mod-list. They did not receive a community mandate through any kind of vote or conciliatory process to do this. This is unacceptable and authoritarian.

However, if you insist that I discuss via PM, I will, since some progress has to be made towards a conciliatory and unifying panel, rather than this rule-by-fiat style.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,324
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 10:04:49 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
For now, PM. "Transparency" is all well and good but it makes it ridiculously hard to communicate with someone when they are intent on talking to an audience rather than a person.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 10:05:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:04:49 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
For now, PM. "Transparency" is all well and good but it makes it ridiculously hard to communicate with someone when they are intent on talking to an audience rather than a person.

You like to miscast my motives. Very well, PM is fine.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 11:43:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 8:14:06 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
A tl:dr summary: FT and I proposed that the beginner's series be revamped in a big way. Many agreed that they wanted to see changes. So, we're going ahead and doing it. If you sincerely want to help and haven't engaged in destructive behavior, you are very welcome to get on board. This isn't country club with anyone having exclusive rights. Someone has to start a project. We did. If you want in, send us a PM and get working on it too.

Nothing about this is correct.

First of all, bsh1 agreed to every single change that would benefit the beginner's series. This is a fact. You continued forcing him to step down. This is also a fact.

Your and FT's stubborn refusal to even see that there is another side here, not to mention your complete unwillingness to admit that you may be wrong, and that you are destroying DDO's Mafia identity by making it like MS, is exactly why none of you are fit to lead the beginner's series.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/9/2016 11:44:33 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:04:49 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
For now, PM. "Transparency" is all well and good but it makes it ridiculously hard to communicate with someone when they are intent on talking to an audience rather than a person.

You do not get to dictate the future of this community through backroom politics.