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EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 9:56:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
We in the community agreed today, as seen in bsh's thread, to discuss matters publicly. There's been a lot of stubbornness going around, so Saph and I discussed transforming our system into a more anarchic one. Beginner's Mafia mod setups would work the same as regular game setups - that is, anyone could sign up to mod. Saph would act as a centralized point of contact for all new players, but each mod would be free to run their games as they wished. This means that people would be free to use the rules and mods they believe would best benefit the community. I believe only one mod could go at a time in this setup, rather than 2.

What are your thoughts on the matter?
SolonKR
Posts: 4,039
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2/9/2016 10:15:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I'm collecting a general idea of where everyone stands (including those who have been silent) in a poll here:
https://www.surveymonkey.com...

[this is being C/P'd into each of the recent discussion threads]
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 10:25:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:15:39 PM, SolonKR wrote:
I'm collecting a general idea of where everyone stands (including those who have been silent) in a poll here:
https://www.surveymonkey.com...

[this is being C/P'd into each of the recent discussion threads]

I don't think this poll really captures the divide at all.
SolonKR
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2/9/2016 10:29:11 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:25:42 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't think this poll really captures the divide at all.

Can you elaborate, please?
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 10:35:08 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:29:11 PM, SolonKR wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:25:42 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I don't think this poll really captures the divide at all.

Can you elaborate, please?

The split isn't really over who gets to be moderating. That's a small issue in comparison. The split is over the setup itself, as well as the need for FT and F-16 to simply apologize for how they treated bsh.
SolonKR
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2/9/2016 10:39:14 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:35:08 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
The split isn't really over who gets to be moderating. That's a small issue in comparison. The split is over the setup itself, as well as the need for FT and F-16 to simply apologize for how they treated bsh.

Well, I think that this survey addresses the structure of how the setup will be addressed, which is ultimately what will determine the setup itself. For example, if Saph becomes permanent mod (which I don't have an objection to), she could simply unilaterally do the rebalancing of Matrix6 that you're talking about.

Ultimately, we'll probably end up arguing about how the set-up of the series should be until the cows come home, so it will in all likelihood be up to the person in charge to implement any changes.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 10:44:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:39:14 PM, SolonKR wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:35:08 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
The split isn't really over who gets to be moderating. That's a small issue in comparison. The split is over the setup itself, as well as the need for FT and F-16 to simply apologize for how they treated bsh.

Well, I think that this survey addresses the structure of how the setup will be addressed, which is ultimately what will determine the setup itself. For example, if Saph becomes permanent mod (which I don't have an objection to), she could simply unilaterally do the rebalancing of Matrix6 that you're talking about.

Ultimately, we'll probably end up arguing about how the set-up of the series should be until the cows come home, so it will in all likelihood be up to the person in charge to implement any changes.

Hence Saph and my "anarchy" proposal.
SolonKR
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2/9/2016 10:45:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:44:32 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Hence Saph and my "anarchy" proposal.

I included that in my survey.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Sapphique
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2/9/2016 10:51:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:56:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We in the community agreed today, as seen in bsh's thread, to discuss matters publicly. There's been a lot of stubbornness going around, so Saph and I discussed transforming our system into a more anarchic one. Beginner's Mafia mod setups would work the same as regular game setups - that is, anyone could sign up to mod. Saph would act as a centralized point of contact for all new players, but each mod would be free to run their games as they wished. This means that people would be free to use the rules and mods they believe would best benefit the community. I believe only one mod could go at a time in this setup, rather than 2.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

I would actually prefer this system over me being a permanent mod. Since there will probably never be consent on the JK/RB issue, having a system where anyone can sign up and implement the version they desire seems fairest.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/9/2016 10:53:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Who mods the game was actually a pretty significant point since opinions have gotten very heated. The OP proposed anarchy and I think that's the last resort. If we can agree on nothing, that's the go-to solution, yes.

However, I think everyone can agree that Saph will make a good mod and that's a better option than anarchy and I doubt anyone at all would object to Saph.

The biggest issues that remain are the setup. The setup should be community approved and discussed beforehand with Saph running the setup as agreed upon. Most changes have already been agreed upon but just in case. The thread is here (http://www.debate.org...) so review the setup to make sure we can all agree going forward and if not, point out what is objectionable. Once we all have concensus, we can move forward and put this behind us.

It's not up to the mod (Saph in this case) to unilaterally change major setup issues.

I do think the survey is focused more on the politics of how we select people who control how the setup works so it's not much help. However, a survey on very specific aspects of setups like "do you want the unvote rule" can be helpful if concensus cannot be reached in thread. But that should be a last resort.
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:54:08 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:51:56 PM, Sapphique wrote:
I would actually prefer this system over me being a permanent mod. Since there will probably never be consent on the JK/RB issue, having a system where anyone can sign up and implement the version they desire seems fairest.

This is not about what is most "fair" to potential mods. It is about what is "best" for the newer players and DDO mafia as a whole.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 10:54:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:53:42 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Who mods the game was actually a pretty significant point since opinions have gotten very heated. The OP proposed anarchy and I think that's the last resort. If we can agree on nothing, that's the go-to solution, yes.

Saph prefers anarchy to being the one mod.

However, I think everyone can agree that Saph will make a good mod and that's a better option than anarchy and I doubt anyone at all would object to Saph.

The biggest issues that remain are the setup. The setup should be community approved and discussed beforehand with Saph running the setup as agreed upon. Most changes have already been agreed upon but just in case. The thread is here (http://www.debate.org...) so review the setup to make sure we can all agree going forward and if not, point out what is objectionable. Once we all have concensus, we can move forward and put this behind us.

It's not up to the mod (Saph in this case) to unilaterally change major setup issues.

I do think the survey is focused more on the politics of how we select people who control how the setup works so it's not much help. However, a survey on very specific aspects of setups like "do you want the unvote rule" can be helpful if concensus cannot be reached in thread. But that should be a last resort.
1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 10:57:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
There should only be one mod.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 10:57:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:54:08 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:51:56 PM, Sapphique wrote:
I would actually prefer this system over me being a permanent mod. Since there will probably never be consent on the JK/RB issue, having a system where anyone can sign up and implement the version they desire seems fairest.

This is not about what is most "fair" to potential mods. It is about what is "best" for the newer players and DDO mafia as a whole.

And this system allows everyone to mod a game how they think is best, since I will never accept a Matrix6 with the MS jailer/roleblocker as good. Never. It will only harm the Mafia community here. Removing it is what is beneficial. And I will continue defending the Mafia community. You and F-16, on the other hand, can also run your own beginner's games your way, since you guys refuse to even consider that what bsh and I want is better for the new players.
1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 10:59:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Anarchy would be about the worst decision possible.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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lannan13
Posts: 23,017
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2/9/2016 11:02:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 9:56:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We in the community agreed today, as seen in bsh's thread, to discuss matters publicly. There's been a lot of stubbornness going around, so Saph and I discussed transforming our system into a more anarchic one. Beginner's Mafia mod setups would work the same as regular game setups - that is, anyone could sign up to mod. Saph would act as a centralized point of contact for all new players, but each mod would be free to run their games as they wished. This means that people would be free to use the rules and mods they believe would best benefit the community. I believe only one mod could go at a time in this setup, rather than 2.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

No offense, but an anarchic system for the beginner's series is terrible. You going to let bhu mod?
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If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 11:04:35 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:02:48 PM, lannan13 wrote:
At 2/9/2016 9:56:20 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
We in the community agreed today, as seen in bsh's thread, to discuss matters publicly. There's been a lot of stubbornness going around, so Saph and I discussed transforming our system into a more anarchic one. Beginner's Mafia mod setups would work the same as regular game setups - that is, anyone could sign up to mod. Saph would act as a centralized point of contact for all new players, but each mod would be free to run their games as they wished. This means that people would be free to use the rules and mods they believe would best benefit the community. I believe only one mod could go at a time in this setup, rather than 2.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

No offense, but an anarchic system for the beginner's series is terrible. You going to let bhu mod?

It's Saph's and my counter plan. If the alternative is a system dominated by FT and F-16, then yes. I'd rather have Saph as an indefinite mod.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 11:05:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:59:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Anarchy would be about the worst decision possible.

Better than a system dominated by FT and F-16.
lannan13
Posts: 23,017
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2/9/2016 11:21:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:05:13 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:59:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Anarchy would be about the worst decision possible.

Better than a system dominated by FT and F-16.

That is true, but you can't counter cr@p with one turd. (no offense, it's a better alternative, but we could do a whole lot better and if we have to just have them protesting against bsh1 then so be-it.)
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-Lannan13'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

If the sky's the limit then why do we have footprints on the Moon? I'm shooting my aspirations for the stars.

"If you are going through hell, keep going." "Sir Winston Churchill

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." "Eleanor Roosevelt

Topics I want to debate. (http://tinyurl.com...)
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,098
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2/9/2016 11:50:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:05:13 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:59:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Anarchy would be about the worst decision possible.

Better than a system dominated by FT and F-16.

I would rather have a jackass mod than a random dipsh!t.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
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2/10/2016 4:23:55 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think Saph should be my permanent replacement for a least a year. She can bring on co-mods if she needs help or if new mods want experience.
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tejretics
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2/10/2016 1:56:52 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I disagree. Saph should be a consistent moderator -- that would be better for DDO's mafia community and for new players.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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2/10/2016 1:57:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
*should be a permanent moderator
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass