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Proposed Changes

FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:09:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
F-16 and I, along with a few others, have proposed a number of changes to the beginner series. These are the changes we have been discussing:

1. The series will have two games as opposed to three. We believe that two games is enough to prepare new players for the regular games. Two games also avoids the burnout that some players feel after the three game series. Our hope is that new players will go into the regular games excited to test their newly developed skills against more experienced players.

2. The first game in the series will use mafiascum's Matrix 6 setup, with one modification: mafia will have daytalk. Although this might give the scum a slight advantage, we do not think it will be statistically significant, because the DPs on DDO are much shorter than on mafiascum. In terms of balance, this setup is the best there is. In nearly 300 games over the past year on mafiascum, the setup has produced roughly 50-50 odds for both town and scum. It is balanced, both in theory, and in practice.

3. The second game in the series will be a role madness game designed by the mod. However, to ensure balance, we want to have these games reviewed for balance. The reviewers should be proven players and mods who have shown a nuanced understanding of balance. Experience helps in that regard. This is important, because balancing role madness games is a tricky business. Even competent mods often struggle to balance them well. By having multiple reviewers, we do the best we can to make sure there are no broken role combinations, and to ensure the game is still competitive, fair to both sides, and fun for both sides.

4. The series will use a standard set of rules, regardless of who mods the games. The rules will provide the basic framework on which forum mafia is based. The most noticeable change to the current rules used by bsh1 is the removal of the "unvote" rule. In our proposed set of rules, players will be able to change their votes by simply voting a player. Below, I have reproduced a copy of our proposed set of rules to be used in the beginner games.

We believe these changes will make the beginner games a better experience for newer players, as well as better prepare them for regular games. We also intend to ask for feedback at the end of each game, to see how these changes are working in practice. At this point, you may be wondering how these changes will improve mafia on DDO. Let me briefly explain.

First, balanced setups. Balance encourages a competitive environment and fairness. Imbalanced games are unfair to one of the sides, either town or mafia. And nothing sucks more than losing a game because the odds were severely stacked against you. It's important we send newer players a message that mafia is not only competitive but also offers fair odds to each side. This is the sort of thing that will help motivate players to try their best, ensuring that we don't have perpetual no-lynches and widespread apathy (a recurring problem in recent mafia games).

Second, getting rid of the "unvote" rule will have a number of effects going forward. The obvious effect is that it will make it easier for players to change their votes. In recent games, there have been a number of no-lynches. In one game, town even lost at LYLO because it no-lynched. Making it easier to change your vote is one step towards promoting lynches over no-lynches. When it is harder to change your vote, players are less likely to do so. Though this point is subtle, it may have unconscious effects that have not been noticed. At the very least, no harm is going to come from making it easier for players to change their votes.

However, the biggest problem is that unvote rule clutters the game with unnecessary words and posts, making the game more difficult to read. More "unvotes"are scattered through the game than necessary. Ever heard the writing advice, "omit needless words"? In effect, the unvote rule forces every player to become a bad writer, as they are forced to use a needless word to change their vote.

The unvote rule also clutters the game with posts from mods reminding players to unvote. These reminds lead players to revote a player they are already voting, effectively creating two unnecessary posts (the reminder, and the revote). These posts create clutter that make the game harder to sift through, harder to reread, and thus more frustrating. This is not the sort of environment we should create for newer players. Nothing turns people off mafia quicker than meaningless clutter they have to sift through.

--

Going forward, we would like the next beginner series to implement these changes. The only issue left to discuss is who will mod these games. Initially, I asked bsh1 to incorporate these changes. I wanted him to mod the games using these changes. However, bsh1 has said he is not willing to mod games that fully incorporate these changes. So, we are now at the point of choosing who will replace bsh1.

bsh1 has recommended Saph as the next mod. We agree that Saph would make a great mod. So, we have decided that Saph will mod the next beginner game.

We asked her if she would be willing to mod indefinitely, and she has said she could do it most of the time, though she would need help during exam time. We think that is fair, and have offered to mod the games ourselves during that time, or to have others mod the games. The primary requirement to mod the games is that you are willing to follow the structure outlined above, and that you have some experience playing/modding mafia. This is where we are in this process.

I hope this thread isn't derailed by politics. I want it to be about a substantive discussion of the actual changes we're trying to implement. If you agree with the changes we have outlined above, please express approval. If you disagree, explain what the problem is. Note: Saying that the changes are bad because bsh1 disagrees with them is not a substantive reason to retain the current series as is. This thread is for substantive discussion, not personal attacks.

Appendix: The Rules

Gameplay

1. Votes or unvotes must be bolded.
2. You may unvote or change your vote at any time before the final vote count is posted. However, once a lynch occurs, no further vote changes will count.
3. A lynch occurs when a majority of the players votes to lynch someone.
4. After a lynch occurs, all players may talk until I post the final vote count.
5. If a majority hasn"t been reached by deadline, or if a majority VTNLs, the DP will end in a no-lynch.
6. Submit night actions via your PM.
7. DPs have a deadline of 72 hours. NPs have a deadline of 24 hours.

Player Conduct

1. Don't C/P anything from your role PMs into the game. Paraphrasing is fine.
2. Don't talk about the game outside the thread or mod-sanctioned PMs.
3. Don't post in the game thread after you die and have been flipped.
4. Play to your win condition.
5. Violating one of these rules will result in a modkill.

Other

1. If you are asking me a question in the DP, please bold it.
2. Please try to maintain civil conduct.
3. Please try limiting quote pyramids. They clutter the game, making it more difficult to read.
4. Anything not covered here will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
SolonKR
Posts: 4,041
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2/9/2016 10:16:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I'm collecting a general idea of where everyone stands (including those who have been silent) in a poll here:
https://www.surveymonkey.com...

This is being C/P'd into each of the recent discussion threads.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
Vaarka
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2/9/2016 10:29:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
So far, most of these seemed like things that had been discussed and, eventually, agreed on. But forget that. The changes seem fine to me, and I'm sure Sapph will make a great mod.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 10:33:31 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:29:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
So far, most of these seemed like things that had been discussed and, eventually, agreed on. But forget that. The changes seem fine to me, and I'm sure Sapph will make a great mod.

All of the changes have already been agreed on. All of these changes were agreed on before bsh left. Except for rebalancing the Matrix6 for DDO. Saph and I keep trying to do that, but we keep hitting a wall every time we do. People keep trying to twist what I'm doing to make it seem like this is emotional or political. It isn't. It's about what's best for DDO Mafia, and what is best for DDO Mafia is NOT a carbon copy of Mafia Scum. DDO Mafia needs to retain its own identity.
Vaarka
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2/9/2016 10:36:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:33:31 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:29:54 PM, Vaarka wrote:
So far, most of these seemed like things that had been discussed and, eventually, agreed on. But forget that. The changes seem fine to me, and I'm sure Sapph will make a great mod.

All of the changes have already been agreed on. All of these changes were agreed on before bsh left. Except for rebalancing the Matrix6 for DDO. Saph and I keep trying to do that, but we keep hitting a wall every time we do. People keep trying to twist what I'm doing to make it seem like this is emotional or political. It isn't. It's about what's best for DDO Mafia, and what is best for DDO Mafia is NOT a carbon copy of Mafia Scum. DDO Mafia needs to retain its own identity.

DDO Mafia is still DDO Mafia, but the beginners series is different, I guess. The series is for the new guys to figure stuff out, which is it's own thing. What sets our mafia games apart are the other games that go on in the forums.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:36:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:33:31 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
All of the changes have already been agreed on. All of these changes were agreed on before bsh left. Except for rebalancing the Matrix6 for DDO. Saph and I keep trying to do that, but we keep hitting a wall every time we do. People keep trying to twist what I'm doing to make it seem like this is emotional or political. It isn't. It's about what's best for DDO Mafia, and what is best for DDO Mafia is NOT a carbon copy of Mafia Scum. DDO Mafia needs to retain its own identity.

The proposals here aren't a "carbon copy" of mafiascum. Even if they were, DDO would still retain an identity separate from mafiascum. The players are what makes the difference.

Rebalancing Matrix 6 isn't necessary. Why are you trying to do that?
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:37:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:33:46 PM, Mikal wrote:
Did khaos quit mafia

I haven't seen Khaos in some time. It would be curious to see what he thinks of these proposals.
Mikal
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2/9/2016 10:37:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:37:05 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:33:46 PM, Mikal wrote:
Did khaos quit mafia

I haven't seen Khaos in some time. It would be curious to see what he thinks of these proposals.

I'm not curious
Mikal
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2/9/2016 10:41:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:38:58 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:37:41 PM, Mikal wrote:
I'm not curious

Do you support these changes?

I can't offer my thoughts

1) I have not did mafia in ages because I could not get along with khaos
2) I'm inherently bias towards any move that makes DDO more like mafia scum, just because the site is better by any measurable standard.
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:42:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:41:01 PM, Mikal wrote:
I can't offer my thoughts

Yeah, you can.

1) I have not did mafia in ages because I could not get along with khaos
2) I'm inherently bias towards any move that makes DDO more like mafia scum, just because the site is better by any measurable standard.

That doesn't make you biased. This isn't about mafiascum. It's about what's best for DDO. If you agree this will make DDO better, you should say so. If you disagree, say so. Explain why. I want to improve these changes if possible.
Mikal
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2/9/2016 10:44:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:42:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:41:01 PM, Mikal wrote:
I can't offer my thoughts

Yeah, you can.

1) I have not did mafia in ages because I could not get along with khaos
2) I'm inherently bias towards any move that makes DDO more like mafia scum, just because the site is better by any measurable standard.

That doesn't make you biased. This isn't about mafiascum. It's about what's best for DDO. If you agree this will make DDO better, you should say so. If you disagree, say so. Explain why. I want to improve these changes if possible.

I think on balance shifting to matrix 6, would improve the overall quality of play on DDO. I always feel shifting the meta is necessary at certain points, and when you compare the two communities there is no argument against it. Mafia scum has better quality players, better quality games, and a setup that helps produce and motivate those players to become even better. The very few times that I have time to play any more, I only play on mafia scum.

I don't think bsh should be removed though
Vaarka
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2/9/2016 10:44:53 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:42:30 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

Wasn't something about only certain people currently being ringers also mentioned? I don't see it here.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:45:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:44:44 PM, Mikal wrote:
I don't think bsh should be removed though

bsh1 wasn't removed. He did not want to implement the changes outlined above, so he stepped down. Encourage him to implement the changes if you want him around.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 10:45:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:36:19 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:33:31 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
All of the changes have already been agreed on. All of these changes were agreed on before bsh left. Except for rebalancing the Matrix6 for DDO. Saph and I keep trying to do that, but we keep hitting a wall every time we do. People keep trying to twist what I'm doing to make it seem like this is emotional or political. It isn't. It's about what's best for DDO Mafia, and what is best for DDO Mafia is NOT a carbon copy of Mafia Scum. DDO Mafia needs to retain its own identity.

The proposals here aren't a "carbon copy" of mafiascum. Even if they were, DDO would still retain an identity separate from mafiascum. The players are what makes the difference.

Rebalancing Matrix 6 isn't necessary. Why are you trying to do that?

Because you keep trying to turn the DDO roleblocker/jailer into a carbon copy of Mafia scum's, which is a deal breaker because it destroys a key aspect of DDO Mafia identity. Why are you so resistant to changing it?
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:46:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:44:53 PM, Vaarka wrote:
Wasn't something about only certain people currently being ringers also mentioned? I don't see it here.

We haven't discussed those changes, though we have agreed to play in the games. We want to revitalize DDO mafia, and that means having the best players showing the newbies how it's done.
Mikal
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2/9/2016 10:49:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:45:46 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:44:44 PM, Mikal wrote:
I don't think bsh should be removed though

bsh1 wasn't removed. He did not want to implement the changes outlined above, so he stepped down. Encourage him to implement the changes if you want him around.

I did not say he was removed. I can see him him removing himself though. He is always sensitive to how people treat him, so when he is met with critiques that can easily be construed as attacks(even if that is not the purpose), it's quite reasonable to see why he has no desire to mod. It's a mix mesh of people (on both sides), not wanting to give up ground and people taking a forum way to seriously and allowing it to affect them on a personal level

He has devoted countless hours into making the beginners series work. He is a great mod, really approachable, and really devoted to mafia on the site. When people question that (add in his sensitive nature), he would easily construe it as a personal attack.

While I think DDO can definitely be improved on, I most certainly think he should mod. He is by far the most perceived approachable person out of anyone named so far.
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:51:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:45:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because you keep trying to turn the DDO roleblocker/jailer into a carbon copy of Mafia scum's, which is a deal breaker because it destroys a key aspect of DDO Mafia identity. Why are you so resistant to changing it?

(1) The roleblocker/jailkeeper is not a key aspect of DDO's identity. It is used by different mods in different ways. Neither variation is at the core of DDO's identity. In fact, if we were to look at every game ever played on DDO, the mafiascum version has probably been used more often.

(2) I am not resistant to changing it. We were discussing potential changes, and ultimately decided to include daytalk, because daytalk is actually a core aspect of DDO's identity. But this doesn't change what the data shows. It shows that the setup is balanced as used on mafiascum. When you can demonstrate 50-50 odds over 300 games of play, I am hesitant to mess with that setup. The slightest changes can have dramatic affects on balance that are extremely difficult to predict ahead-of-time.

(3) In terms of the roleblocker and jailkeeper, the odds that town wins in the Jailkeeper/Bulletproof/Roleblocker setup are the lowest in all the potential setups. Instead of 55%, as in the Doc/Cop/Roleblocker setup, it is 40%. Bsh1 and you have suggested nerfing the town even further. This may bring the odds that town wins even lower, especially in an environment where we have already introduced daytalk for the mafia. I can't predict the specific consequence, but it could be lowering the odds to 30-70, in favor of the mafia. This would be too much of a scum-sided game. As is, that specific setup is at the edge of being balanced.
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 10:53:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:51:20 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:45:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because you keep trying to turn the DDO roleblocker/jailer into a carbon copy of Mafia scum's, which is a deal breaker because it destroys a key aspect of DDO Mafia identity. Why are you so resistant to changing it?

(1) The roleblocker/jailkeeper is not a key aspect of DDO's identity. It is used by different mods in different ways. Neither variation is at the core of DDO's identity. In fact, if we were to look at every game ever played on DDO, the mafiascum version has probably been used more often.

It was used by one mod, one different way, once, in the last 2 years. Possibly even longer back, since Trekie says Drafter used it the DDO way.

(2) I am not resistant to changing it. We were discussing potential changes, and ultimately decided to include daytalk, because daytalk is actually a core aspect of DDO's identity. But this doesn't change what the data shows. It shows that the setup is balanced as used on mafiascum. When you can demonstrate 50-50 odds over 300 games of play, I am hesitant to mess with that setup. The slightest changes can have dramatic affects on balance that are extremely difficult to predict ahead-of-time.

Sure. What are DDO beginner's Mafia's odds?

(3) In terms of the roleblocker and jailkeeper, the odds that town wins in the Jailkeeper/Bulletproof/Roleblocker setup are the lowest in all the potential setups. Instead of 55%, as in the Doc/Cop/Roleblocker setup, it is 40%. Bsh1 and you have suggested nerfing the town even further. This may bring the odds that town wins even lower, especially in an environment where we have already introduced daytalk for the mafia. I can't predict the specific consequence, but it could be lowering the odds to 30-70, in favor of the mafia. This would be too much of a scum-sided game. As is, that specific setup is at the edge of being balanced.

No, because bsh and I have suggested rebalancing the entire branch to conform with DDO's standards rather than Mafia Scum's. Saph and I have worked on this as well, since she too disagrees with the MS jailer/roleblocker.
1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 10:54:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:51:20 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:45:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Because you keep trying to turn the DDO roleblocker/jailer into a carbon copy of Mafia scum's, which is a deal breaker because it destroys a key aspect of DDO Mafia identity. Why are you so resistant to changing it?

(1) The roleblocker/jailkeeper is not a key aspect of DDO's identity. It is used by different mods in different ways. Neither variation is at the core of DDO's identity. In fact, if we were to look at every game ever played on DDO, the mafiascum version has probably been used more often.

http://www.debate.org...

Check the past two years or so, if you really want to substantiate that.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 10:59:06 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:53:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
It was used by one mod, one different way, once, in the last 2 years. Possibly even longer back, since Trekie says Drafter used it the DDO way.

I'll look into the stats but ultimately the stats are irrelevant. DDO's core identity isn't about the use of a specific variation of roleblocker. DDO's identity is about experimentation. It's about implementing new roles, creating variations on old roles, and so on. There is no set of standard DDO roles.

Sure. What are DDO beginner's Mafia's odds?

The setups vary from 10-90 to 90-10. In other words, they are very unfair setups, where mafia often has a guaranteed win, and town often has a guaranteed win, depending on the particular setup used.

No, because bsh and I have suggested rebalancing the entire branch to conform with DDO's standards rather than Mafia Scum's. Saph and I have worked on this as well, since she too disagrees with the MS jailer/roleblocker.

I'm not sure what these DDO standards are that you speak of. Nor am I sure why you keep distinguishing mafiascum from DDO, as if DDO must make itself inferior on purpose, solely for the purpose of distinguishing itself.

In terms of Saph's disagreement about the mafiascum jailkeeper, I don't know if that's true. If it is, she should express that sentiment on her own. In my talks with her, she seemed aware of the balance issues with using bsh1's variation rather than mafiascum's variation.
SolonKR
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2/9/2016 11:00:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
My issue is that I don't see how any of this will result in what the original goal of your other thread was--to produce good players. You can balance until the cows come home--to be clear, I'm not opposed to the revised structure--in fact, I think it will make the series at least marginally more fun (although, for obvious reasons, I advocate for craziness over balance in role madness, as I believe they're more about the thrill of the ride, and I would do a third all-naive Jester live mafia set-up in a heartbeat)... however, I really don't have any reason to believe that these changes will actually improve the caliber of beginners. I've probably played around 30 games on this site, and my read accuracy as town has not changed at all since I first started playing, so simply balancing the games is not going to magically make people good.

There's going to have to be a deeper level of investment than this. Some things I was thinking of were: changing the long intro posts into a rap, the dedicated ringer idea (I agree with you on this), and instituting ghost talk (altering the set-up in such a way that dead players may still talk, ensuring that the NP1 kill still is invested in the series and scum hunts--in fact, dead townies would be in an even better position to learn scum hunting because there is absolutely no pressure on them). I think balance is less important than discussing changes that will actually affect the ways the beginners learn.
SO to Bailey, the love of my life <3
EndarkenedRationalist
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2/9/2016 11:02:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:59:06 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/9/2016 10:53:55 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
It was used by one mod, one different way, once, in the last 2 years. Possibly even longer back, since Trekie says Drafter used it the DDO way.

I'll look into the stats but ultimately the stats are irrelevant. DDO's core identity isn't about the use of a specific variation of roleblocker. DDO's identity is about experimentation. It's about implementing new roles, creating variations on old roles, and so on. There is no set of standard DDO roles.

There is very much a set standard of DDO roles. The roleblocker itself is not the core. It is, however, a core aspect.

Sure. What are DDO beginner's Mafia's odds?

The setups vary from 10-90 to 90-10. In other words, they are very unfair setups, where mafia often has a guaranteed win, and town often has a guaranteed win, depending on the particular setup used.

I assume this is because they were role madness without balance. Well, all parties agreed to two games, both balanced. I don't see why we try that for a while before trying to change the standard of the roles themselves.

No, because bsh and I have suggested rebalancing the entire branch to conform with DDO's standards rather than Mafia Scum's. Saph and I have worked on this as well, since she too disagrees with the MS jailer/roleblocker.

I'm not sure what these DDO standards are that you speak of. Nor am I sure why you keep distinguishing mafiascum from DDO, as if DDO must make itself inferior on purpose, solely for the purpose of distinguishing itself.

Inferior, lol. DDO has a separate identity from MS. They are different sites with different audiences. That must be preserved.

In terms of Saph's disagreement about the mafiascum jailkeeper, I don't know if that's true. If it is, she should express that sentiment on her own. In my talks with her, she seemed aware of the balance issues with using bsh1's variation rather than mafiascum's variation.

Ask her, then. I only know what she's told me, and she and I have worked on many alternatives.
1harderthanyouthink
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2/9/2016 11:03:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I vehemently disagree with the notion that ghost talk should be implemented.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
Sapphique
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2/9/2016 11:03:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 10:59:06 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
In terms of Saph's disagreement about the mafiascum jailkeeper, I don't know if that's true. If it is, she should express that sentiment on her own. In my talks with her, she seemed aware of the balance issues with using bsh1's variation rather than mafiascum's variation.

I do think the RB/JK as used on DDO has become a part of site meta, and saying that the stats are irrelevant don't really change that if there indeed hasn't been a game run the MS way in 2 years or more. I gave an idea of what I thought would be balanced which removed the JK so that wouldn't be an issue. It was mostly disregarded, though I don't know why.
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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2/9/2016 11:05:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:03:45 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I vehemently disagree with the notion that ghost talk should be implemented.

Thank goodness. I thought we had to debate that too.
FourTrouble
Posts: 12,757
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2/9/2016 11:07:11 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
These are the mods who have modded games in the past 2 years:

1. Drafter - uses MS version
2. bsh1
3. Seventh - don't know
4. Beginner - uses MS version
5. Smithereens - don't know
6. Solon - don't know
7. TUF - uses MS version
8. Lannan - don't know
9. Wylted - don't know
10. Ford - don't know
11. F-16 - uses MS version
12. Bullish - uses MS version
13. Khaos - don't know
14. Trekie - don't know
15. Subutai - don't know
16. FourTrouble - uses MS version
17. Medic - uses MS version (actually, medic goes even further, saying that roleblockers can stop bulletproofs from being bulletproof, lol)
18. Mikal - uses MS version
19. Skep - don't know
20. Zaradi - uses MS version
21. TN05 - don't know
22. Danielle - uses MS version
23. Endark - bsh1 version
24. Lucky - uses MS version
25. TV - uses MS version
26. Ore - don't know
27. TheAntidoter - uses MS version
28. Yraelz - uses MS version

The actual mods from the past two years tell a very different story about roleblockers. DDO is about experimentation. No role or variation is part of its core identity.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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2/9/2016 11:07:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:00:36 PM, SolonKR wrote:
My issue is that I don't see how any of this will result in what the original goal of your other thread was--to produce good players. You can balance until the cows come home--to be clear, I'm not opposed to the revised structure--in fact, I think it will make the series at least marginally more fun (although, for obvious reasons, I advocate for craziness over balance in role madness, as I believe they're more about the thrill of the ride, and I would do a third all-naive Jester live mafia set-up in a heartbeat)... however, I really don't have any reason to believe that these changes will actually improve the caliber of beginners. I've probably played around 30 games on this site, and my read accuracy as town has not changed at all since I first started playing, so simply balancing the games is not going to magically make people good.

There's going to have to be a deeper level of investment than this. Some things I was thinking of were: changing the long intro posts into a rap, the dedicated ringer idea (I agree with you on this), and instituting ghost talk (altering the set-up in such a way that dead players may still talk, ensuring that the NP1 kill still is invested in the series and scum hunts--in fact, dead townies would be in an even better position to learn scum hunting because there is absolutely no pressure on them). I think balance is less important than discussing changes that will actually affect the ways the beginners learn.

Yeah...I don't think ghost talk is a good idea. I see what you're saying, but a new Mafia team would be just as frustrated as the person killed N1. Making the games more "hip' is something we can look at later.
FourTrouble
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2/9/2016 11:08:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/9/2016 11:03:54 PM, Sapphique wrote:
I do think the RB/JK as used on DDO has become a part of site meta, and saying that the stats are irrelevant don't really change that if there indeed hasn't been a game run the MS way in 2 years or more. I gave an idea of what I thought would be balanced which removed the JK so that wouldn't be an issue. It was mostly disregarded, though I don't know why.

We don't want to mess with a demonstrably balanced setup because it is really hard to predict balance. At this point, better safe than sorry. Again, see Bullish's response.

Also, you're wrong that it has become site meta. I just skimmed the list of mods, and a large number of them use the MS version of the role.