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Beginners' Mafia 44.1: Endgame

Sapphique
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3/6/2016 9:18:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Town wins!

This game used column C of the Matrix 6 setup, so the full setup was 5 Vanillas, 1 Doctor, 1 Tracker, and 2 Goons.

Town

Famous - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Geo - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Obi - You are a Doctor. Each night you may select a player. This player will be protected from lethal actions during that night. You may not self-target. You win with the Town.

Tenebris - You are a Tracker. Each night you may select a player. You will learn who they visited, but not what action(s) they took. You win with the Town.

Flex (Teddy) - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

F-16 - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

FT - You are a Vanilla. You have no special abilities. You win with the Town.

Mafia

Torton - You are a Goon. You have no special abilities. You win with the Mafia.

Skep - You are a Goon. You have no special abilities. You win with the Mafia.

Night Actions

NP1
Skep - NK FT
Obi - doc FT
Tenebris - track Geo

NP2
Skep - NK Geo
Obi - doc F-16
Tenebris - track Skep
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 9:29:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Also, I want to emphasize how well the town did solely through behavioral analysis. This game is yet another example of what happens when the town focuses its efforts on behaviors instead of roles. No mention of roles on D1, and the focus on developing reads, made for a great scumhunting environment. I'm looking forward to the next game, and although that game will have more roles, an important takeaway from this game is to continue focusing on behaviors, and to use roles as a supplement to your scumhunting, like we did here.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/6/2016 9:31:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:25:21 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
That was impressive play from the town. Tenebris, Obi, Flex, all did great. We had the game on D1.

Yeah, I too am impressed with the current crop of new players.

It is too soon to say whether Matrix 6 is working but it definitely does seem that way. The lack of people immediately focusing on roles means that everyone was encouraged to post behavioral reads and as more and more of us bounced off each other and built on each others reads, we managed to get a D1 scumlynch without any claims at all.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 9:38:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Torton also has a lot of potential. He did lots of things that we normally associate with town. I hope he doesn't get discouraged from that difficult start to the game.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 9:39:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I'll take you up on this.
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/6/2016 9:41:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:39:57 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I'll take you up on this.

Haha.

And yeah, I agree on Torton. Everyone played well.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 9:43:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:41:01 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Haha.

My play was pretty laughable, huh?

Everyone played well.

This. I don't even have much to critique the new players for. They approached the game precisely as they should, they were reasonable, they sorted through the posts carefully, the weighed the evidence, and they made smart decisions.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 9:46:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:45:48 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Any chance we can see the mafia PM? Did you guys discuss strategy much?

I'm especially curious about the kill on Geo.
ObiWan
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3/6/2016 9:50:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.

If any of you have any feedback for me I'd appreciate it.
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Sapphique
Posts: 4,119
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3/6/2016 9:51:33 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I asked all the ringers if they'd like to give advice to the new players after the game, and each agreed. I believe FT would prefer that players PM him for feedback, so please do so if you're interested.

Thank you all for playing and thanks especially to FT, F-16, and Skep for being wonderful ringers. It was fulfilling as a mod to watch everything unfold so well, especially because this is my first solo-modded series. If there's anything you think I can do better as a mod, feel free to tell me in your PMs with me.

The next game will be up in a couple days.
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch
ObiWan
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3/6/2016 9:52:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:45:48 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Any chance we can see the mafia PM? Did you guys discuss strategy much?

Can the mafia still talk in the PM after they die?
These are not the droids you're looking for.
Sapphique
Posts: 4,119
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3/6/2016 9:55:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I would also like to add that I'm very pleased with the activity and engagement levels in this game--only a single replacement, with consistent posting throughout the game. I hope all of you newer players will continue to stick around and play, because you have a lot of potential ^.^
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch
Sapphique
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3/6/2016 9:58:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:52:44 PM, ObiWan wrote:
At 3/6/2016 9:45:48 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
Any chance we can see the mafia PM? Did you guys discuss strategy much?

Can the mafia still talk in the PM after they die?

In this game, they could. It's something we're still experimenting with to see which way works best. The next game will also allow mafia to talk in their PM after they die, but we might change that for the next series and get feedback from you guys.
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch
Geographia
Posts: 1,472
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3/6/2016 9:59:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.

How did I do.
Torton
Posts: 988
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3/6/2016 10:09:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.
Reply.
Tenebris_Sanguinis
Posts: 77
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3/6/2016 10:18:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.

I'd like feedback, and also would like a question answered.

In the case of Geo, I feel as tho he did some anti-town/pro-scum suggestions, but obviously was town at the end of the game. How can someone tell if someone is scum, or just had the wrong idea as town?
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 10:30:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 10:18:22 PM, Tenebris_Sanguinis wrote:
In the case of Geo, I feel as tho he did some anti-town/pro-scum suggestions, but obviously was town at the end of the game. How can someone tell if someone is scum, or just had the wrong idea as town?

It depends on the player. If you're playing with someone like me or F-16, you should assume pro-scum actions are scum-tells. But if you're playing with someone like Geo, who is relatively inexperienced and has developed a few bad habits from other games, you should assume the pro-scum action is more null. In that case, you look for other things - the genuineness of their scumhunting, whether their thought process makes sense, and so on. Geo was pro-scum but his thought process made sense, and he seemed genuinely interested in finding the scum. Consider the difference between Torton and Geo - Torton was doing things that we normally associate with town, but his thought process didn't make much sense from a townie's perspective, he didn't have the same sort of genuine interest in finding scum that Geo had.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 10:39:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:59:00 PM, Geographia wrote:
How did I do.

I think you have a lot of potential but you have a few ideas about the game that are wrong. You didn't want to start developing reads early in the game, and that didn't make much sense. F-16 explained, and posted a great article, one that I highly recommend you read. I'd recommend trying to develop reads more at the start of a game, and don't discourage others from developing reads.

Later, you wanted to lynch Skep without really thinking about things, simply because we were ahead. Again, not a pro-town suggestion. I've seen towns lose when they're up five mislynches and only one scum is left. Don't assume you'll win simply because you lynched scum on D1. Also, in terms of outing roles, the best time to do that was when we did it, as that helped confirm players while maximizing their utility. The mafia didn't know who the roles were, so we were able to get another tracker result, confirming Skep as scum. In general, I think you should think through the stuff you're saying more, as you were making a lot of pro-scum suggestions without even realizing that's what you were doing, and it made it much more difficult to read you as town.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 10:44:43 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 9:50:39 PM, ObiWan wrote:
If any of you have any feedback for me I'd appreciate it.

At 3/6/2016 10:18:22 PM, Tenebris_Sanguinis wrote:
I'd like feedback.

I don't have much feedback for either of you. I liked the way both of you approached the game. You were looking for scum, posting your reads, letting us know what you thought about the game, asking relevant questions, and furthering town's interest. Keep doing what you're doing, and I think you'll both continue to improve. I've already noticed improvement in Obi's play from one game to the next, and I imagine I'll also continue to see Tenebris improve.

I'd recommend you both consider precisely what made Torton/Skep scum in this game, their scum-tells, and also consider precisely what the townies did that was pro-town or indicative of town alignment. The best way to learn is experience and self-reflection. I can't really tell you more than that, except to say that you both played great.
Torton
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3/6/2016 10:53:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 10:09:38 PM, Torton wrote:
At 3/6/2016 9:38:51 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
So, Saph asked me before the game if as a ringer I'd be willing to give constructive feedback as it might be helpful to have someone critique your play.

I don't know which of you are new though besides FT and Skep who I have played with extensively.

So, if you are new/if you want feedback, just reply to this post and I'll post my thoughts about your play and suggest improvements.

FT and Skep are also good players to ask for feedback.
Reply.
Feedback in general would also be awesome.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 10:53:51 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 10:09:38 PM, Torton wrote:
Reply.

You did lots of things we normally associate with townies. F-16 pointed those out, and I'd recommend continuing to do those things, as both town and scum.

As scum, the reason we caught you is because (a) you were nitpicking irrelevant points, (b) you weren't saying anything about alignments (notice how all the townies kept saying "X is town" whereas you weren't saying anything until later in the game), and (c) you weren't making much sense (e.g. when I explained a point, you didn't really seem interested in understanding the point I was making, but rather continuing with your attack). These things, when taken together, made it seem like you had no interest in finding the scum (a scum-tell) and that you were contriving analysis (a scum-tell). To improve, remember the big picture - you need to develop positions about alignments, not just nitpick potential inconsistencies. You should be thinking about who you can potentially mislynch, and work towards that goal. Geo would have been a solid option for you to push on D1. I wasn't. Remember, to survive as scum, you need to appear more town than the townies you're trying to mislynch. That means actively doing things that will get you town-read -- and that means pretending that you don't know who is who or what is what (cluelessness about alignments is a town-tell), but also pretending that you're interested in who is who. This will make much more sense when you play as town, as you'll have some basis to see what townies think about when they're reading the game.
FourTrouble
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3/6/2016 10:56:34 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
@Torton

Also, you seemed more interested in "justification" for things rather than "actual alignments." Scum tend to be more interested in justifying their points, so they look for justifications from others, too. That was a giveaway. Town don't worry about justification as much as whether the person is town or scum. That's something to consider in your approach to playing scum. When you started justifying points that I wasn't even attacking you for, it showed me that you were more interested in justifications than alignments. These are subtle points, but if you have it in the back of your mind when you're playing as scum that you need to look for alignments, not justify stuff, it'll help you contrive posts that don't justify. The goal is to contrive the appearance of scumhunting.
Tenebris_Sanguinis
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3/7/2016 12:08:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 10:56:34 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

A couple more questions if I may (mostly about RVS)

How do you approach RVS in terms of how you should start + what you should look for. Is the RVS more player specific analysis (i.e. a certain players traits as either town or scum) or are there general tendencies in all scum/town players you should look for. While it's called random voting, do you genuinely pick players at random or is there a bias in who you would start with?
FourTrouble
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3/7/2016 12:22:42 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 12:08:44 AM, Tenebris_Sanguinis wrote:
How do you approach RVS in terms of how you should start + what you should look for. Is the RVS more player specific analysis (i.e. a certain players traits as either town or scum) or are there general tendencies in all scum/town players you should look for. While it's called random voting, do you genuinely pick players at random or is there a bias in who you would start with?

The name "RVS" is a misnomer. Give a reason for your vote, even if it isn't based on anything solid. Analyze what others have done. Grasp at straws. Build a wagon. Do things that force others to make non-random decisions, and then analyze those decisions. As an example, look at how I started this game. I immediately offered a read on Teddy. It wasn't based on much but it was something to get the game going. You immediately offered reads, too, and that was effective. It helped get discussion going, because it gave us something non-random to analyze.
FourTrouble
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3/7/2016 12:31:18 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Re: scumhunting

There are no absolutes. The only thing townies know with certainty is that the mafia are informed, town aren't, mafia want to lynch townies, townies want to lynch mafia. So, when you're evaluating behaviors, keep that in mind. You have to ask how the information you have available lines up wtih these differences. In doing that, consider the behavior (specific posts/votes), the player performing the behavior (meta), the context in which the behavior occurs (other player"s posts), and the player"s explanation/justification for their behavior (responses to pressure). Was the player trying to figure out who the scum were or was the player trying to lynch town? Was an emotional outburst natural or fake, genuine or forced? Is the player"s degree of certainty about a read/vote excessive, or does it square with the game state? Was there a pro-town reason for a change in opinion or was it opportunistic and pro-scum?

In general, players who do pro-town things are more likely to be town, while players who do pro-scum things are more likely to be scum. But that isn"t always the case. Geo, case in point. So you also need to look past the pro-town or pro-scum effect that certain actions have, and ask whether the specific player behaving that way was intentionally trying to accomplish pro-town or pro-scum objectives. For instance, misinterpreting what another player has said is inherently pro-scum. But sometimes, townies misread what others have said. So the right question to ask is why the player has been misinterpreting things. Was it intentional or unintentional? Was it manipulative, designed to lead a lynch on a townie? Or was it an honest mistake? These are the sorts of questions you might ask when trying to add depth to your analysis, and by extension, accuracy to your reads.

At the end of the day, you should be able to say exactly why a particular behavior is more likely to come from scum than town. But it"s important to remember that town are clueless, so they"ll make mistakes. Don"t assume mistakes or errors are inherently scummy; they"re not. Don"t assume bad logic is scummy; that depends largely on why the person is using bad logic. Look at the motivations and effects of bad logic - is it intentional or unintentional? is it leading to bad results or positive results? The more depth your analysis has, the more likely you are to locate scum.

And on that note, the more depth someone"s analysis has, the more likely that person is a townie trying to find the scum. Faking thoughtful analysis that asks these sorts of questions is difficult, because the scum already know the answers to the puzzle. This is part of why F-16 initially townread Torton - his analysis seemed to have depth because he was reading the game closely. But on closer inspection, it didn't have the sort of depth that I'm talking about here - it lacked actual analysis of alignments. And it's because scum don't analyze posts the way a townie analyzes posts; scum must by necessity fake analysis, since they already know the answers to everyone's alignments. So, scum rarely ask these deeper questions about motivations and effects, and when they do ask those questions, they already know the answers. So it is incredibly difficult for scum to fake the sort of depth I'm talking about here. That means this sort of depth is more likely to come from town. But again, there are no absolutes in mafia.
Tenebris_Sanguinis
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3/7/2016 12:36:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 12:31:18 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
Re: scumhunting

There are no absolutes. The only thing townies know with certainty is that the mafia are informed, town aren't, mafia want to lynch townies, townies want to lynch mafia. So, when you're evaluating behaviors, keep that in mind. You have to ask how the information you have available lines up wtih these differences. In doing that, consider the behavior (specific posts/votes), the player performing the behavior (meta), the context in which the behavior occurs (other player"s posts), and the player"s explanation/justification for their behavior (responses to pressure). Was the player trying to figure out who the scum were or was the player trying to lynch town? Was an emotional outburst natural or fake, genuine or forced? Is the player"s degree of certainty about a read/vote excessive, or does it square with the game state? Was there a pro-town reason for a change in opinion or was it opportunistic and pro-scum?

In general, players who do pro-town things are more likely to be town, while players who do pro-scum things are more likely to be scum. But that isn"t always the case. Geo, case in point. So you also need to look past the pro-town or pro-scum effect that certain actions have, and ask whether the specific player behaving that way was intentionally trying to accomplish pro-town or pro-scum objectives. For instance, misinterpreting what another player has said is inherently pro-scum. But sometimes, townies misread what others have said. So the right question to ask is why the player has been misinterpreting things. Was it intentional or unintentional? Was it manipulative, designed to lead a lynch on a townie? Or was it an honest mistake? These are the sorts of questions you might ask when trying to add depth to your analysis, and by extension, accuracy to your reads.

At the end of the day, you should be able to say exactly why a particular behavior is more likely to come from scum than town. But it"s important to remember that town are clueless, so they"ll make mistakes. Don"t assume mistakes or errors are inherently scummy; they"re not. Don"t assume bad logic is scummy; that depends largely on why the person is using bad logic. Look at the motivations and effects of bad logic - is it intentional or unintentional? is it leading to bad results or positive results? The more depth your analysis has, the more likely you are to locate scum.

And on that note, the more depth someone"s analysis has, the more likely that person is a townie trying to find the scum. Faking thoughtful analysis that asks these sorts of questions is difficult, because the scum already know the answers to the puzzle. This is part of why F-16 initially townread Torton - his analysis seemed to have depth because he was reading the game closely. But on closer inspection, it didn't have the sort of depth that I'm talking about here - it lacked actual analysis of alignments. And it's because scum don't analyze posts the way a townie analyzes posts; scum must by necessity fake analysis, since they already know the answers to everyone's alignments. So, scum rarely ask these deeper questions about motivations and effects, and when they do ask those questions, they already know the answers. So it is incredibly difficult for scum to fake the sort of depth I'm talking about here. That means this sort of depth is more likely to come from town. But again, there are no absolutes in mafia.

This game would be easier if we could see each others faces lol
Sapphique
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3/7/2016 1:11:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 12:36:20 AM, Tenebris_Sanguinis wrote:
This game would be easier if we could see each others faces lol

This is actually why I prefer forum mafia ^.^ It's more complex.
DDO Beginners' Mafia Moderator -- PM me if you'd like to learn how to play mafia!

"We wondered what happiness would look like if we could give it a physical form...the shape of happiness might resemble glass...even though you don't usually notice it, it's still definitely there. You merely have to change your point of view slightly, and then that glass will sparkle when it reflects the light. I doubt that anything else could argue its own existence more eloquently." ~Lelouch