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Intentional innactivity from scum in mafia

Discipulus_Didicit
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11/21/2016 7:19:10 AM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
I understand being too busy to play more than just a few posts a day or being innactive because you don't have time for the game. Those things make sense. I can even understand giving up after you are caught and before you are lynched.

Intentionally being innactive just because you are on the scum team? This shows how much sense that makes:

Fred: Hi Joe, I just started playing this new game called mafia.

Joe: Really? How is it played?

Fred: Players are secretly divided into two teams, one usually about triple the size of the other. Everyone on the smaller team knows who is on their team but everyone on the bigger team just knows that they are on the bigger team. The goal is to kill of everyone on the other team by voting on a player to eliminate each day. After a player is eliminated through voting the smaller team also gets to select one player to eliminate.

Joe: Interesting. So which team are you on in your current game?

Fred: Looks like I am on the smaller team now. Hmmm... I think it would be best if I just not play at all for a few days. I wouldn't want to say something that accidently gives away the fact that I am on the smaller team, if I do then the larger team may use their numbers to vote for me to be eliminated.

Joe: That makes sense. So, want to hear about this new game I got in the meantime?

Fred: Sure. What game did you get?

Joe: It's called Call of Duty. The players all pretend to shoot eachother and the person that shoots the most people wins the match, and the game keeps track of how many times you have killed another player and how many times other players have killed you since you bought the game.

Fred: Okay. Are you going to start playing now?

Joe: Well, kinda. I'm going to set up my online profile that keeps track of the kills and deaths. When I first make it, it will say that I have zero deaths. After that all I have to do is never play the game at all and I will be at zero deaths forever. Pretty neat, huh?

Fred: Um, I guess so. But isn't the point of buying Call of Duty... to play Call of Duty?

Joe: Don't be silly, Fred. If I actually play then other players might kill me. The way to have zero deaths is to not play.

Fred: But then... Why even say you are playing the game in the first place?

There is a leson here ladies and gentlemen. The whole point of playing mafia in the first place... is to play mafia. If you aren't going to play just because you are assigned to the smaller team, why sign up in the first place?
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
Vaarka
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11/21/2016 2:31:10 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/21/2016 7:19:10 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I understand being too busy to play more than just a few posts a day or being innactive because you don't have time for the game. Those things make sense. I can even understand giving up after you are caught and before you are lynched.

Intentionally being innactive just because you are on the scum team? This shows how much sense that makes:

Fred: Hi Joe, I just started playing this new game called mafia.

Joe: Really? How is it played?

Fred: Players are secretly divided into two teams, one usually about triple the size of the other. Everyone on the smaller team knows who is on their team but everyone on the bigger team just knows that they are on the bigger team. The goal is to kill of everyone on the other team by voting on a player to eliminate each day. After a player is eliminated through voting the smaller team also gets to select one player to eliminate.

Joe: Interesting. So which team are you on in your current game?

Fred: Looks like I am on the smaller team now. Hmmm... I think it would be best if I just not play at all for a few days. I wouldn't want to say something that accidently gives away the fact that I am on the smaller team, if I do then the larger team may use their numbers to vote for me to be eliminated.

Joe: That makes sense. So, want to hear about this new game I got in the meantime?

Fred: Sure. What game did you get?

Joe: It's called Call of Duty. The players all pretend to shoot eachother and the person that shoots the most people wins the match, and the game keeps track of how many times you have killed another player and how many times other players have killed you since you bought the game.

Fred: Okay. Are you going to start playing now?

Joe: Well, kinda. I'm going to set up my online profile that keeps track of the kills and deaths. When I first make it, it will say that I have zero deaths. After that all I have to do is never play the game at all and I will be at zero deaths forever. Pretty neat, huh?

Fred: Um, I guess so. But isn't the point of buying Call of Duty... to play Call of Duty?

Joe: Don't be silly, Fred. If I actually play then other players might kill me. The way to have zero deaths is to not play.

Fred: But then... Why even say you are playing the game in the first place?

There is a leson here ladies and gentlemen. The whole point of playing mafia in the first place... is to play mafia. If you aren't going to play just because you are assigned to the smaller team, why sign up in the first place?

In most games, I'd agree with this. The problem for new players, however, may be linked to them not really knowing how to play in the first place. Let's say you were asked by a friend to play a game. You had never played the game before, and maybe had heard of it and knew the basic idea, but didn't know all the little details. Your friend, however, does.

Now, you start playing this game, and you know "this button does this, and this button does this". You try to play this way, but your friend knows much more about the mechanics, and won't tell you what to press, what does what, or does a really bad job of explaining it. You're left just sitting there, not knowing what to do, and after a while of just letting your friend win over and over by doing something you can't figure out, you get tired of playing.

I think this is one of the causes of noob inactivity, for both sides. A lot of them come to the game, expecting to play a fun game, and are met with a bunch of players who know exactly what they're doing. The noobs try to catch on, but can never figure it out. They know they're supposed to post, but they don't know what to say. They know they're being asked something, but don't know how to answer. For a new player, this is already stressful enough, even as town, because you want to participate, but are struggling to do so.

Now, let's say that, on top of all of this, you are scum. You are being hunted, and you already don't really know what to do. If you have a scum mate who's more experienced and actually helpful, this is made easier, but if you are paired up with another noob, or an experienced player who chooses to mostly neglect you, it just becomes more difficult. They don't know what to post or what to say, and now there's the added stress of being caught for it. You want to win, but you don't know how, and this time, you don't have a large team of townies to help.

This is a big reason why noobs are inactive on both teams. They don't know how to play, even as town, and when they become scum, it makes it harder to adjust because you don't want to get caught. The players who push through that, however, tend to improve, but if they don't know how to play in the first place, it becomes much more difficult.

I was hoping to help get some of that "I don't know what I'm doing" stuff out of the way in 49.1, but I also have to play towards my wincon...and it kinda ended too quickly.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
Discipulus_Didicit
Posts: 3,089
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11/21/2016 3:16:07 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/21/2016 2:31:10 PM, Vaarka wrote:

When it comes to noobs I think if they refuse to start with the beginners series it is their fault for refusing. It's there for a reason. If they start with the beginners series like they should but don't ask questions or try to learn, still their fault. If they do everything right and just aren't given any mentorship by the mods or ringers then I would feel it isn't the noob fault (I have never seen this happen).

Luckily we had a pretty good batch of noobs in the last series. Not just good at playing, though most were not bad at playing either, but also good for asking questions when they needed to. I think your longer game theory posts helped too btw.

On the other hand even when noobs are not involved the ratio of intentional innactivity among experienced players that are scum seems to be higher than for experienced players that are town. This is maybe not as common as it is among noobs but lurking is a well-proven scum tell, which it would not be if this were a problem only among noobs.
Cobalt - You could be scum too.
Matt - I suppose. But I also might not be.

Kiri - Yeah, I don't know what DD is doing.
Vaarka - He's doin'a thingy do

DD - The best advice most often goes unheeded.
Wise Man - KYS, DD.
DD - Case in point ^
Kirigaya-Kazuto
Posts: 1,051
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11/21/2016 3:40:33 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/21/2016 7:19:10 AM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
I agree with all of this and that's why in the Mystery Mafia game, and all games really, that I'm scum I try to be just as active as if I were a townie. Heck I even scum hunt because you never know if there'll be a third party and, as scum, you need to take out the TP's
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Vaarka
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11/21/2016 3:51:28 PM
Posted: 2 weeks ago
At 11/21/2016 3:16:07 PM, Discipulus_Didicit wrote:
At 11/21/2016 2:31:10 PM, Vaarka wrote:

When it comes to noobs I think if they refuse to start with the beginners series it is their fault for refusing. It's there for a reason. If they start with the beginners series like they should but don't ask questions or try to learn, still their fault. If they do everything right and just aren't given any mentorship by the mods or ringers then I would feel it isn't the noob fault (I have never seen this happen).
Most noobs do start with the beginner series, and I've unfortunately seen poor mentorship from ringers. While it's not as prominent now, there were plenty of games that I've played where the ringers did little to help guide the noobs, brought them into a meta of VTLing someone DP1 Page 1 for a full claim, and rather than leading the noobs to victory, simply played the game. The ringer is supposed to lead the noobs, teach them, answer their questions, and guide them through the game and how to play it, but at the same time, they have to actually play towards their wincon. A lot of ringers, especially in the past, had to "play towards their wincon" part down, but rarely did the "lead, teach, answer, guide" part, and even then, it's difficult.

I try to avoid answering questions and giving advice in the similar manner to how I was taught in my first game, which can be summed up to this...

Player 1: "Vaarka, what are your reads?"

Me: "My what?"

Player 1: "Your reads. Who do you think is scum?"

Me: "Uh... I don't know, Player 5?"

Player 1: "Reasoning?"

Me: "What do you mean?"

Player 1: "Alright, Vaarka's just fluffing."

When they do ask, we try our best to answer their questions, but we can't always just *tell* them how to play. They have to figure some of it out for themselves, which usually takes a few games to get down. If it's your first few games, you still don't have that experience, so it's more understandable for them to not know what to say, since they've never had to "say" this stuff before. Some players are willing to sit through it all and learn, and others simply aren't.


Luckily we had a pretty good batch of noobs in the last series. Not just good at playing, though most were not bad at playing either, but also good for asking questions when they needed to. I think your longer game theory posts helped too btw.

On the other hand even when noobs are not involved the ratio of intentional innactivity among experienced players that are scum seems to be higher than for experienced players that are town. This is maybe not as common as it is among noobs but lurking is a well-proven scum tell, which it would not be if this were a problem only among noobs.

For some players, it also simply falls into their interest in the game. For a lot of experienced players who go inactive when scum, it's usually because they have fun playing as town, but don't play mafia much, and when they do, they don't get the same thrill, so they don't feel like playing. It's annoying that they do this, and I have far less mercy on them. As a mod, if I see a noob who is much less active, a friendly PM usually helps get them in the right direction. If I see a ringer who is much less active, I'm not as 'encouraging' as I am 'stern', as in "Get your crap together". If there's a reason they are inactive, I appreciate them telling me, and even asking for a replacement is fine. If they're just gonna tell me "Sorry, I'll be more active next DP," or something along those lines, and I've already had a problem with their activity that game, I'm not gonna care why they're inactive. I think I've expressed this in-game as well, where I'd encourage the noobs to be more active, give suggestions on how to play, etc..., but would tell inactive ringers (or players in regular games) that I didn't care about "their strong interest in this brand new game", or "their passion for politics", even telling some players who are constantly inactive to "get active or get out".

I can understand having an affiliation preference, but if you'll only willingly play town, or are just gonna be inactive in general, then I don't want you in my game.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya