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Teen mothers enduring childbirth

TheOutspokenOne
Posts: 6
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9/30/2009 7:16:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
My mother told me that teen mothers should suffer the pains of childbirth because it's their own fault for becoming pregnant in the first place. I found this comment of hers rude and insensitive of her, especially given the fact that she had her second child, me, when she was seventeen.

Any takers on this one?
"If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done?" Henry Ford
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/30/2009 7:18:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:16:12 PM, TheOutspokenOne wrote:
My mother told me that teen mothers should suffer the pains of childbirth because it's their own fault for becoming pregnant in the first place. I found this comment of hers rude and insensitive of her, especially given the fact that she had her second child, me, when she was seventeen.

Any takers on this one?

I'm actually a little bit confused as to your exact meaning here, perhaps you could clarify.

Are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl should experience childbirth pains as a lesson for why they should not get pregnant, or are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl who gets pregnant should experience childbirth pain and not have an abortion as a cop out?
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
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9/30/2009 7:19:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:18:45 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 9/30/2009 7:16:12 PM, TheOutspokenOne wrote:
My mother told me that teen mothers should suffer the pains of childbirth because it's their own fault for becoming pregnant in the first place. I found this comment of hers rude and insensitive of her, especially given the fact that she had her second child, me, when she was seventeen.

Any takers on this one?

I'm actually a little bit confused as to your exact meaning here, perhaps you could clarify.

Are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl should experience childbirth pains as a lesson for why they should not get pregnant, or are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl who gets pregnant should experience childbirth pain and not have an abortion as a cop out?

The latter.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/30/2009 7:24:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I can see her point; if you're negligent enough to get pregnant, then it makes sense that you should suffer through the consequences.

But that doesn't necessarily make it right. Teens make stupid decisions - it is a given. And while it is important we face the consequences of our actions, it is also important that those actions don't bite off more than they can chew. A pregnancy doesn't only mean labour pains; it also means a huge deduction on any pay, a huge investment of time, a possibility of the loss of education, and many other things. The consequences are simply too great to inflict on what really is quite a small, fixable discrepancy.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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9/30/2009 7:27:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why was she focusing on teens? Shouldn't this view encompass all age groups? If anyone should be forced to endure unwanted pregnancies, it should be adults.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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9/30/2009 7:30:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:24:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
I can see her point; if you're negligent enough to get pregnant, then it makes sense that you should suffer through the consequences.

But that doesn't necessarily make it right. Teens make stupid decisions - it is a given. And while it is important we face the consequences of our actions, it is also important that those actions don't bite off more than they can chew. A pregnancy doesn't only mean labour pains; it also means a huge deduction on any pay, a huge investment of time, a possibility of the loss of education, and many other things. The consequences are simply too great to inflict on what really is quite a small, fixable discrepancy.

And all that can be solved with one simple murder.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/30/2009 7:33:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:30:44 PM, mongoose wrote:
And all that can be solved with one simple murder.

Pretty much. Though, I don't advocate murdering the teen. I mean, that is pretty wrong.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/30/2009 7:35:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:19:42 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
Are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl should experience childbirth pains as a lesson for why they should not get pregnant, or are you saying your mother told you every teenage girl who gets pregnant should experience childbirth pain and not have an abortion as a cop out?

The latter.

In that case, I'm on your mother's side. I'm one of those extremist anti-abortionists. But I would caution you on a few things before presuming me to fit some profile of a vehement anti-abortionist:

I am atheist, I'm even a bit too anti-Christian, just look at some of my replies and posts to the Religion part.
I am a liberal, just check out my "Big Issues" section on my profile here. Aside from abortion, I'm pretty much a liberal down the line ... I consider my anti-abortion stance to be liberal as well, obviously I have an uncommon perspective.
Further, my late wife (she died in 2006) shared the exact same view as I did ... and not only was my wife a woman, but she was the victim of incestuous rape at the hands of her own father when she was 12. Her parents, whatever little say most people might give them given their vile abuse of their own daughter (her mom didn't participate, she was in another state at the time and she didn't know until several months later when it became clear her 12 year old daughter was pregnant), were vehement Christians (her father and rapist was and, to my knowledge, still is a praticing priest in suburban Texas) and vehement anti-abortionists ... so at 12 years old, she carried her father's child to term and gave birth. The daughter's baby, a girl, was given up to adoption.

My wife came to realize that real fathers don't rape their young daughters eventually, and she disowned her parents when she became though for her own reasons chose not to prosecute her father for that heinous act. She became an atheist but did retain vehement anti-abortionism, as I did. She did not regret having brought the baby to term and felt it was not the baby's fault for what her father did to her in creating that life.

I'm guessing your mom's pregnancies of you and your elder sibling were more normal teenage "whoopses" and not the result of incestuous pedophilic rape, as was the case of my wife's father upon her, so I don't expect it to really change your mind if you view you mother as being wrong.

I don't want to offend you, certainly, I know this is a very contentious issue. I'm 33 and have been in many debates. I would love to answer any questions you have, give you more details if you like, but I also don't want to push this issue on you too hard because I know this is a very personal issue. I have no aims to kill abortion doctors or kill people seeking abortions, despite my hard stance against abortion even in cases of rape and incest. I hope you can trust, as much of a stranger as I am, that I have no inkling to threaten you and that I am willing to just talk and reason (again, acknowledging neither you nor I could likely sway the other's stance) ... I leave that entirely up to you.
Volkov
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9/30/2009 7:48:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:35:01 PM, PervRat wrote:
3000 characters of stuff.

That didn't explain or really address anything, PervRat. It explained your situation and how you sort of came to believe what you believe, but none of the reasoning behind it.

Besides, you can be anti-abortion, but would you be pro-choice?
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/30/2009 8:13:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:48:36 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/30/2009 7:35:01 PM, PervRat wrote:
3000 characters of stuff.

That didn't explain or really address anything, PervRat. It explained your situation and how you sort of came to believe what you believe, but none of the reasoning behind it.

Besides, you can be anti-abortion, but would you be pro-choice?

"Any takers on this one?" was a rather vague question. I weighed in and answered I am opposed to abortion, and that my late wife was as well despite what she went through. It explained a bit that I'm not the typical "I'm a Christian and that's why I'm anti-abortion and that's the only reason I give." I offered TheOutspokenOne to ask more questions if she likes but did not feel like I should force any more details or explanations on her unless she wanted.

As for the latter question, that too is ambiguous. The one and only circumstance in which I would tolerate performing an abortion is triage -- where due to some bizarre circumstance, either the mother or the unborn child could be saved but not both. In all likelihood, the mother would have the better chance of survival since premature babies are not likely to be able to survive outside the womb (but it has been known to happen with technological assistance from an extremely young age, far more than most people realize ... IIRC, as young as 2 months into the pregnancy a fetus has survived outside of the womb with a hefty help from medical technology).

I consider abortion to be murder in all cases outside of triage. I do not believe any being, even a child's mother, has the right to take the life of another innocent being.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 8:16:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:16:12 PM, TheOutspokenOne wrote:
My mother told me that teen mothers should suffer the pains of childbirth because it's their own fault for becoming pregnant in the first place. I found this comment of hers rude and insensitive of her, especially given the fact that she had her second child, me, when she was seventeen.

Any takers on this one?

I used to agree with your mother on this, that teens shouldn't be able to cop out of the consequences of their actions; however, I believe that the child shouldn't suffer at the hands of a neglectful parents, but that doesn't give an irresponsible teenager justification to prevent the development of a possible contributor to society; ergo, I think a pharmaceutical solution is in order.
Harlan
Posts: 1,880
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9/30/2009 8:50:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
That seems like a very dangerous belief to me- that childbirth should be a tool to punish teens who have perhaps acted foolishly. Already it is bizarre to suggest that society should impose laws for the sole purpose that people may "suffer" for actions. But that the act of childbirth and the pain accompanying be assumed as a rightful punishment is frightful.

I suppose that your mother also believes that people who are injured doing foolish things should be refused hospitalization?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:05:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 8:50:30 PM, Harlan wrote:
That seems like a very dangerous belief to me- that childbirth should be a tool to punish teens who have perhaps acted foolishly.

Yeah, that's where the thought occurred that a child can't be punished for the crimes committed by the parents; after all, that may prevent the child from contributing anything to society, or from living at all.

Already it is bizarre to suggest that society should impose laws for the sole purpose that people may "suffer" for actions.

I don't think it's necessarily imposing laws for the sake of suffering; I think it would be good to have laws, however, that constantly remind people that their actions do have consequences, and that, if they act irresponsibly, there will be repercussions. If they keep the child, that's their burden; if they have an abortion, there are proven medical "side-effects"; so, either way, the person is being punished. The means of punishment is simply his/her choice.

But that the act of childbirth and the pain accompanying be assumed as a rightful punishment is frightful.

That's definitely why I support a pharmaceutical solution, instead.
PervRat
Posts: 963
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9/30/2009 9:10:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:05:30 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
That's definitely why I support a pharmaceutical solution, instead.

I wish you'd learn to be less vague and ambiguous. Your "pharmaceutical solution" may sound like a clever phrase, but it has at least two connotations:
Abortion pills to commit abortion through a "pharmaceutical solution" which to anti-abortionists like myself reeks of a "final solution" for non-consentual euthanasia
OR
Pain reduction "pharmaceutical solution" to allow a mother to have a child with the actual birthing process pharmaceutically numbed.

Which did you mean?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:16:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:10:04 PM, PervRat wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:05:30 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
That's definitely why I support a pharmaceutical solution, instead.

I wish you'd learn to be less vague and ambiguous. Your "pharmaceutical solution" may sound like a clever phrase, but it has at least two connotations:
Abortion pills to commit abortion through a "pharmaceutical solution" which to anti-abortionists like myself reeks of a "final solution" for non-consentual euthanasia
OR
Pain reduction "pharmaceutical solution" to allow a mother to have a child with the actual birthing process pharmaceutically numbed.

Which did you mean?

Neither. I think of it in simpler terms: Sexual desire is chemically controlled through hormones and such; if a drug is synthesized to suppress those hormones, or to halt their production, we would lose the desire for a lot of sexual activity, ergo we would no longer have to worry about abortions, because we would no longer have to worry about teenagers making irresponsible sexual decisions based on impulse and 'natural' desires.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/30/2009 9:21:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:16:20 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Neither. I think of it in simpler terms: Sexual desire is chemically controlled through hormones and such; if a drug is synthesized to suppress those hormones, or to halt their production, we would lose the desire for a lot of sexual activity, ergo we would no longer have to worry about abortions, because we would no longer have to worry about teenagers making irresponsible sexual decisions based on impulse and 'natural' desires.

And, I'm guessing that this should be a mandatory pill?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:29:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:21:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:16:20 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Neither. I think of it in simpler terms: Sexual desire is chemically controlled through hormones and such; if a drug is synthesized to suppress those hormones, or to halt their production, we would lose the desire for a lot of sexual activity, ergo we would no longer have to worry about abortions, because we would no longer have to worry about teenagers making irresponsible sexual decisions based on impulse and 'natural' desires.

And, I'm guessing that this should be a mandatory pill?

Quite voluntary. Unless, of course, a person demonstrates sexual irresponsibility.
Volkov
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9/30/2009 9:35:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:29:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Quite voluntary. Unless, of course, a person demonstrates sexual irresponsibility.

That is open to such flagrant abuse by the officials overseeing who or what is performing "sexual irresponsibility," what that is, etc.

You're such a fascist.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:39:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:35:06 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:29:19 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Quite voluntary. Unless, of course, a person demonstrates sexual irresponsibility.

That is open to such flagrant abuse by the officials overseeing who or what is performing "sexual irresponsibility," what that is, etc.

ANYTHING that is established in society is open to an abuse. Besides, what difference does it make if a government official determines 'sexual irresponsibility', as opposed to a pregnant teenager who is deciding whether or not to have an abortion? Why is the teenager any more qualified to make the decision?

You're such a fascist.

Believing in the positive potential of government =/= fascism.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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9/30/2009 9:41:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:35:06 PM, Volkov wrote:
That is open to such flagrant abuse by the officials overseeing who or what is performing "sexual irresponsibility," what that is, etc.

You're such a fascist.

Volkov, no matter how absurd, unnecessary, or fallacious the opposing position is, you always push on unphased and offer some logical counter-argument. You are such a good soul =D
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Volkov
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9/30/2009 9:41:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:39:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
ANYTHING that is established in society is open to an abuse. Besides, what difference does it make if a government official determines 'sexual irresponsibility', as opposed to a pregnant teenager who is deciding whether or not to have an abortion? Why is the teenager any more qualified to make the decision?

Its her body. Or his, minus the pregnancy.

Believing in the positive potential of government =/= fascism.

I don't find the oppression of citizens very positive.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:47:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:41:17 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:39:26 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
ANYTHING that is established in society is open to an abuse. Besides, what difference does it make if a government official determines 'sexual irresponsibility', as opposed to a pregnant teenager who is deciding whether or not to have an abortion? Why is the teenager any more qualified to make the decision?

Its her body. Or his, minus the pregnancy.

Does that absolve the teenagers of sexual responsibility?


Believing in the positive potential of government =/= fascism.

I don't find the oppression of citizens very positive.

Not all government action is synonymous with 'oppressing the citizens'; besides, the people's tyrannical enslavement of the government is hardly any better; if the government is oppressive as a body of few, one is hardly inclined to believe that a tyranny of the majority is any better; but of course, as a part of the empowered majority, it's likely that very few will openly complain about using that power to get whatever it is that they want.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,484
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9/30/2009 9:47:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:41:05 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:35:06 PM, Volkov wrote:
That is open to such flagrant abuse by the officials overseeing who or what is performing "sexual irresponsibility," what that is, etc.

You're such a fascist.

Volkov, no matter how absurd, unnecessary, or fallacious the opposing position is, you always push on unphased and offer some logical counter-argument. You are such a good soul =D

That hurt my feelings. Lol.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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9/30/2009 9:53:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 7:16:12 PM, TheOutspokenOne wrote:
My mother told me that teen mothers should suffer the pains of childbirth because it's their own fault for becoming pregnant in the first place. I found this comment of hers rude and insensitive of her, especially given the fact that she had her second child, me, when she was seventeen.

Any takers on this one?

Shouldn't every child be wanted?

Prior to the legalization of abortion in most developed countries, it was widely claimed that unwanted pregnancies resulted in a significant number of unwanted children, some of whom were subjects of child abuse. Legalization of abortion was held up as a panacea for this. It would reduce unwanted pregnancies and lower the incidence of child abuse. Planned Parenthood was a leader here, coining the familiar slogan, "every child a wanted child."

What happens when it is not their fault?

This belief sounds dangerous and unconstitutional if you ask me...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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9/30/2009 9:56:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:47:33 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:41:05 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 9/30/2009 9:35:06 PM, Volkov wrote:
That is open to such flagrant abuse by the officials overseeing who or what is performing "sexual irresponsibility," what that is, etc.

You're such a fascist.

Volkov, no matter how absurd, unnecessary, or fallacious the opposing position is, you always push on unphased and offer some logical counter-argument. You are such a good soul =D

That hurt my feelings. Lol.

No, no...I was talking about some other absurd argument, honest ;)
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/30/2009 10:01:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 9:47:08 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Does that absolve the teenagers of sexual responsibility?

No, but it doesn't make it incumbent upon them, or face external punishment from an overreaching government or authority.

Any consequences they face will be natural ones, instead of being forced to take a pill so they cannot have children, or sex, permanently or otherwise.

Not all government action is synonymous with 'oppressing the citizens'; besides, the people's tyrannical enslavement of the government is hardly any better; if the government is oppressive as a body of few, one is hardly inclined to believe that a tyranny of the majority is any better; but of course, as a part of the empowered majority, it's likely that very few will openly complain about using that power to get whatever it is that they want.

The government isn't some separate, conscious entity; the individuals that make up the government's processes are still separate individuals, and are still citizens. What you would be doing by granting the government "rights" over citizens, is empowering certain citizens that make up the government the ability to rule, control and oppress other individuals based on their class as the "government."

The government has no "rights" - citizens do.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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9/30/2009 10:16:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I'd say it's quite responsible to go out and earn money, keep enough for an abortion in the bank, buy lots of condoms, and thus be prepared for the unlikely while one is sexually active. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/30/2009 10:21:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 10:16:48 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I'd say it's quite responsible to go out and earn money, keep enough for an abortion in the bank, buy lots of condoms, and thus be prepared for the unlikely while one is sexually active. :)

Agreed. It isn't hard to make people be responsible, or at least prepare for the eventuality if all else fails. It also doesn't crush anyone's rights under the heel of an overzealous government.
Volkov
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9/30/2009 10:22:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/30/2009 10:21:48 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/30/2009 10:16:48 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I'd say it's quite responsible to go out and earn money, keep enough for an abortion in the bank, buy lots of condoms, and thus be prepared for the unlikely while one is sexually active. :)

Agreed. It isn't hard to teach people to be responsible, or at least prepare for the eventuality if all else fails. It also doesn't crush anyone's rights under the heel of an overzealous government.

Fix'd.