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Vaccines

MrLexa
Posts: 28
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7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.
buddha49er
Posts: 30
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7/6/2014 10:16:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll play devil's advocate here for shits and giggles. I've heard all of the arguments.

Aluminum is dangerous, mercury is in a vaccine and it's dangerous.

Paul Offit wants to give babies 10,000 vaccines at once, which would cause them to die.

Andrew Wakefield only had is license revoked because he was right and Big Pharma gets tons of profits from selling vaccines so they paid the British medical board to revoke his license.

The current vaccine schedule is dangerous for children.

Our immune systems are stronger without vaccines.

Vaccines didn't make diseases decline; they were already trending downward.

Big pharma makes lots of money on vaccines.

(If I can think of any more points for you to address, I'll let you know.)
BasicLogic
Posts: 170
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7/8/2014 6:29:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Actually, i have scientific, peer reviewed evidence that vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, and that illness with a really long name that i can't pronounce and causes you to lose memory when you're old.

A. Autism
Vaccines allow your baby to have a large chance at surviving until the age where autism becomes apparent. (Note, since autisms is genetic, i will define it as showing the symptoms to have autism)

B. Cancer
It is a FACT that as you are older, you are exposed to more radiation, and therefor-cancer. Vaccines help you live longer, and then cause cancerz.

C. Alemizers
Vaccines stop you from dying in the annual polio epidemic so you can live longer. IT IS A FACT VACCINES MAKE YOU LIVE LONGER . And as you are older, you will get Alemizers.

I DARE SOMEONE TO CHALLENGE ME
Praesentya
Posts: 195
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7/8/2014 12:52:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 6:29:29 AM, BasicLogic wrote:
Actually, i have scientific, peer reviewed evidence that vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, and that illness with a really long name that i can't pronounce and causes you to lose memory when you're old.

A. Autism
Vaccines allow your baby to have a large chance at surviving until the age where autism becomes apparent. (Note, since autisms is genetic, i will define it as showing the symptoms to have autism)

B. Cancer
It is a FACT that as you are older, you are exposed to more radiation, and therefor-cancer. Vaccines help you live longer, and then cause cancerz.

C. Alemizers
Vaccines stop you from dying in the annual polio epidemic so you can live longer. IT IS A FACT VACCINES MAKE YOU LIVE LONGER . And as you are older, you will get Alemizers.

I DARE SOMEONE TO CHALLENGE ME


I'd like to see your 'scientific, peer-reviewed evidence' as you've failed to post any.

The premise of your argument is that "vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, [etc.]." I am assuming by 'series of events,' you mean life itself, because vaccines really only decrease mortality rates. But because you don't specify, I am left guessing.

Yes, vaccines can help you live longer than you otherwise may have. However, you attempt to make a nonexistent medical connection in your argument. You might as well argue that aborting a baby is also a cure for cancer, simply because that baby will never be born and will thus never get cancer.

First of all, autism is genetic, and while the exact cause of Alzheimer's is not known, it is likely to be a combination of genetic and other factors - making the argument that vaccines 'cause' either of them absolutely absurd. Second, by living longer you are exposing your body to more medical conditions/diseases/illnesses and all of those have their OWN DIRECT CAUSES, not in any way associated with vaccinations.

By your logic, public executions are a good remedy for flu season, because dead people can't get the flu. And forced castrations are a solid way to stop the spread of STD's.
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
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7/8/2014 12:59:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 12:52:05 PM, Praesentya wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:29:29 AM, BasicLogic wrote:
Actually, i have scientific, peer reviewed evidence that vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, and that illness with a really long name that i can't pronounce and causes you to lose memory when you're old.

A. Autism
Vaccines allow your baby to have a large chance at surviving until the age where autism becomes apparent. (Note, since autisms is genetic, i will define it as showing the symptoms to have autism)

B. Cancer
It is a FACT that as you are older, you are exposed to more radiation, and therefor-cancer. Vaccines help you live longer, and then cause cancerz.

C. Alemizers
Vaccines stop you from dying in the annual polio epidemic so you can live longer. IT IS A FACT VACCINES MAKE YOU LIVE LONGER . And as you are older, you will get Alemizers.

I DARE SOMEONE TO CHALLENGE ME


I'd like to see your 'scientific, peer-reviewed evidence' as you've failed to post any.

The premise of your argument is that "vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, [etc.]." I am assuming by 'series of events,' you mean life itself, because vaccines really only decrease mortality rates. But because you don't specify, I am left guessing.

Yes, vaccines can help you live longer than you otherwise may have. However, you attempt to make a nonexistent medical connection in your argument. You might as well argue that aborting a baby is also a cure for cancer, simply because that baby will never be born and will thus never get cancer.

First of all, autism is genetic, and while the exact cause of Alzheimer's is not known, it is likely to be a combination of genetic and other factors - making the argument that vaccines 'cause' either of them absolutely absurd. Second, by living longer you are exposing your body to more medical conditions/diseases/illnesses and all of those have their OWN DIRECT CAUSES, not in any way associated with vaccinations.

By your logic, public executions are a good remedy for flu season, because dead people can't get the flu. And forced castrations are a solid way to stop the spread of STD's.

Boy, you are DENSE. lol
BasicLogic
Posts: 170
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7/10/2014 11:02:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/8/2014 12:52:05 PM, Praesentya wrote:
At 7/8/2014 6:29:29 AM, BasicLogic wrote:
Actually, i have scientific, peer reviewed evidence that vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, and that illness with a really long name that i can't pronounce and causes you to lose memory when you're old.

A. Autism
Vaccines allow your baby to have a large chance at surviving until the age where autism becomes apparent. (Note, since autisms is genetic, i will define it as showing the symptoms to have autism)

B. Cancer
It is a FACT that as you are older, you are exposed to more radiation, and therefor-cancer. Vaccines help you live longer, and then cause cancerz.

C. Alemizers
Vaccines stop you from dying in the annual polio epidemic so you can live longer. IT IS A FACT VACCINES MAKE YOU LIVE LONGER . And as you are older, you will get Alemizers.

I DARE SOMEONE TO CHALLENGE ME


I'd like to see your 'scientific, peer-reviewed evidence' as you've failed to post any.

The premise of your argument is that "vaccines cause a series of events leading up to autism, cancer, [etc.]." I am assuming by 'series of events,' you mean life itself, because vaccines really only decrease mortality rates. But because you don't specify, I am left guessing.

Yes, vaccines can help you live longer than you otherwise may have. However, you attempt to make a nonexistent medical connection in your argument. You might as well argue that aborting a baby is also a cure for cancer, simply because that baby will never be born and will thus never get cancer.

First of all, autism is genetic, and while the exact cause of Alzheimer's is not known, it is likely to be a combination of genetic and other factors - making the argument that vaccines 'cause' either of them absolutely absurd. Second, by living longer you are exposing your body to more medical conditions/diseases/illnesses and all of those have their OWN DIRECT CAUSES, not in any way associated with vaccinations.

By your logic, public executions are a good remedy for flu season, because dead people can't get the flu. And forced castrations are a solid way to stop the spread of STD's.

No, aborting a baby is not a cure for cancer, and cancer still exists, but just not in the aborted baby.

Also, i never said vaccines caused any of that, since they cause an event (Continued living) which causes these.

Lastly, i defined autism and other genetic defects as not having it, but showing symptoms of it. ANd forced castrations will stop STDS, but you can't compare castrations to vaccines
Praesentya
Posts: 195
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7/10/2014 3:59:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, i never said vaccines caused any of that, since they cause an event (Continued living) which causes these.

'Living' is not the cause of autism, cancer, or Alzheimer's. Each has it's own separate cause. Your logic is false and your argument ludicrous.
MrLexa
Posts: 28
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7/10/2014 5:20:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:59:55 PM, Praesentya wrote:
Also, i never said vaccines caused any of that, since they cause an event (Continued living) which causes these.


'Living' is not the cause of autism, cancer, or Alzheimer's. Each has it's own separate cause. Your logic is false and your argument ludicrous.

Hint....

*Whispers* It's satire! He doesnt really mean it!
BasicLogic
Posts: 170
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7/11/2014 1:05:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/10/2014 3:59:55 PM, Praesentya wrote:
Also, i never said vaccines caused any of that, since they cause an event (Continued living) which causes these.


'Living' is not the cause of autism, cancer, or Alzheimer's. Each has it's own separate cause. Your logic is false and your argument ludicrous.
I HAVE LOGIC IN MY NAME SO MY LOGIC CAN'T BE FALSE. CAPS LOCK
i define them as having the symptoms of, so living would need to happen for those to happen
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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7/11/2014 8:27:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM, MrLexa wrote:
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.

I've been thinking of doing one... Once I get the time to flush out my premise. I'll give you first crack at it.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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7/19/2014 12:27:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/11/2014 8:27:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM, MrLexa wrote:
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.

I've been thinking of doing one... Once I get the time to flush out my premise. I'll give you first crack at it.

You're an anti-vaxer?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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7/19/2014 1:21:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 12:27:04 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 7/11/2014 8:27:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM, MrLexa wrote:
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.

I've been thinking of doing one... Once I get the time to flush out my premise. I'll give you first crack at it.

You're an anti-vaxer?

In general no, but certain ones yes. There are vaccine lines that use aborted fetal tissue. These ones I'm against. MMR is the the biggest culprit. There is some evidence that these are the vaccines that cause problems. The problem is that I lack the time to do the research to really see the validity of it. Since I'm gonna have a child needing this soon I'm going to investigate it more fully to come to a conclusion in my own mind. If I feel that there actually is validity to this I'll definitely put together a debate on it.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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7/19/2014 11:23:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 1:21:28 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/19/2014 12:27:04 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 7/11/2014 8:27:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM, MrLexa wrote:
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.

I've been thinking of doing one... Once I get the time to flush out my premise. I'll give you first crack at it.

You're an anti-vaxer?

In general no, but certain ones yes. There are vaccine lines that use aborted fetal tissue. These ones I'm against. MMR is the the biggest culprit. There is some evidence that these are the vaccines that cause problems. The problem is that I lack the time to do the research to really see the validity of it. Since I'm gonna have a child needing this soon I'm going to investigate it more fully to come to a conclusion in my own mind. If I feel that there actually is validity to this I'll definitely put together a debate on it.

Yes, rubella vaccine (the "R" in MMR) is created from a cell line that was first created used two fetuses that were aborted in 1960. [http://www.chop.edu...] MMR vaccine has a few side effects, but mostly because mumps and measles are freakin nasty diseases, so the viral proteins can cause swelling and fever when injected into the body. But your child's chance of dying from measles is much higher than the chance of any adverse side effect (which are all not remotely fatal, e.g. fever).

If you don't get MMR, you're placing other people's children at risk. Pregnant women exposed to rubella have babies with serious birth defects. The reason that it is *rare* today to see deaf or blind people (when it was not very rare 50 years ago) is the rubella vaccine.

The actual vaccines administered today do not contain aborted fetuses. The cells are replicated versions made in the laboratory.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
Geogeer
Posts: 4,279
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7/19/2014 3:29:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/19/2014 11:23:29 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 7/19/2014 1:21:28 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/19/2014 12:27:04 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 7/11/2014 8:27:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 7/4/2014 7:10:11 AM, MrLexa wrote:
I would like to have a discussion about vaccines with an anti-vaccine debater. I am very pro-vaccine, but I have not yet tested my knowledge of the matter against someone of the opposite viewpoint.

Please discuss.

I've been thinking of doing one... Once I get the time to flush out my premise. I'll give you first crack at it.

You're an anti-vaxer?

In general no, but certain ones yes. There are vaccine lines that use aborted fetal tissue. These ones I'm against. MMR is the the biggest culprit. There is some evidence that these are the vaccines that cause problems. The problem is that I lack the time to do the research to really see the validity of it. Since I'm gonna have a child needing this soon I'm going to investigate it more fully to come to a conclusion in my own mind. If I feel that there actually is validity to this I'll definitely put together a debate on it.

Yes, rubella vaccine (the "R" in MMR) is created from a cell line that was first created used two fetuses that were aborted in 1960. [http://www.chop.edu...] MMR vaccine has a few side effects, but mostly because mumps and measles are freakin nasty diseases, so the viral proteins can cause swelling and fever when injected into the body. But your child's chance of dying from measles is much higher than the chance of any adverse side effect (which are all not remotely fatal, e.g. fever).

If you don't get MMR, you're placing other people's children at risk. Pregnant women exposed to rubella have babies with serious birth defects. The reason that it is *rare* today to see deaf or blind people (when it was not very rare 50 years ago) is the rubella vaccine.

The actual vaccines administered today do not contain aborted fetuses. The cells are replicated versions made in the laboratory.

LOL. Thanks for trying to be tactful, I do appreciate it. I'm not some crazy fundie who chooses what to believe in without some good reason. I have a master's degree and I know how to go through research - the difficult thing will be to track down the relevant research. My previous children all have their inoculations and I've generally agreed that the link between autism and vaccines was not verifiable.

However, I'm now over 40 and that places my children at a greater risk because the chances of genetic "mistakes" slipping into my sperm is increasing by the year. From the amount I've managed to research so far, Autism is related to roughly 100 genetic errors (more likely to occur in children with older parents), but that it isn't directly genetic itself. It requires an external catalyst to activate.

The original MMR vaccine appears to have been derived from an animal cell culture, however it was later switched to being derived from the tissue of an aborted fetus (which is when the autism rates supposedly went up). These vaccines may continue to have residual human DNA fragments in them. Animal DNA residuals would have little effect, however human DNA residuals can cause the immune system to recognize it as foreign material and result in an auto-immune attack on the body. Additionally, residual DNA fragments of less than 250 base pairs seem to have a higher probability of entering the nucleus of a human cell they then integrate with the host DNA and replicate.

The DNA fragment length in the rubella vaccine is 220 base pairs long. And the 25 integration/recombination locations are located in the Autism associated genetic trouble spots. So it is not unreasonable to assume that there is a possibility of a link.

What I am going through right now is this study by the American Academy of Pediatrics:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org...

This is a meta study that reviews effects associated with vaccines. The study concludes that there is no relationship between MMR and autism - Great! However, the critique that I read of this study is that to come to this conclusion they based their findings on a MMR study from Japan. The problem being that Japan uses an Animal based MMR vaccine and not the fetus based one.

So what I am doing is reading this through when I get the chance, and then tracking down the other studies. I've got just under a couple of years before my next child will be receiving the MMR vaccine so I have time.