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Kickoff Topics: Who owned Israel?

Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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7/9/2012 2:36:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is a historical argument that goes on between several groups who claim they are the rightful owners of Israel (Jews, muslims, palestinians, arabs, etc) due to ancestral living.

Now, aside from the questionability of basing territory now off territory in the past, which ethnic/religious/cultural/racial group has the best claim to historically "owning" Israel?
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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7/9/2012 2:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Palestinians own Israel, which should rightfully be called Palestine.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
DetectableNinja
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7/9/2012 2:53:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I dunno. I did want to ask what people thought about this idea: isn't the Jews' claim to Israel akin to the Mormons claiming they own Missouri, because that's their Holy Land as the site of the Garden of Eden?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:01:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Your question kinda presupposes a State solution. Why does there have to be a Palestine or have to be an Israel? Institutionalizing any sort of ethnic political body seems like it's simply going to exacerbate problems regardless of how the specifics turn out.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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royalpaladin
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7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:03:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

This. There seems to be a lot of conflating legitimacy with violence in regards to property rights on the forums lately.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
CiRrK
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7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.
socialpinko
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7/9/2012 3:06:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.

You're not approaching the point of who came to actually legitimately own the land which is up for debate. Just saying they're defending it presupposes that they legitimately appropriated the land which is the actual question up for debate.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CiRrK
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7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:06:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.

You're not approaching the point of who came to actually legitimately own the land which is up for debate. Just saying they're defending it presupposes that they legitimately appropriated the land which is the actual question up for debate.

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:12:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:06:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.

You're not approaching the point of who came to actually legitimately own the land which is up for debate. Just saying they're defending it presupposes that they legitimately appropriated the land which is the actual question up for debate.

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.

I have no idea and won't pretend that that I do. I will say that regardless, defending property does not equate to owning it and a State solution is too generalized to account for various land claims by Palestinians and Jews in the same localized territory.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CiRrK
Posts: 670
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7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:12:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:06:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.

You're not approaching the point of who came to actually legitimately own the land which is up for debate. Just saying they're defending it presupposes that they legitimately appropriated the land which is the actual question up for debate.

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.

I have no idea and won't pretend that that I do. I will say that regardless, defending property does not equate to owning it and a State solution is too generalized to account for various land claims by Palestinians and Jews in the same localized territory.

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:18:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:12:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM, CiRrK wrote:

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.

I have no idea and won't pretend that that I do. I will say that regardless, defending property does not equate to owning it and a State solution is too generalized to account for various land claims by Palestinians and Jews in the same localized territory.

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.

Abolish it.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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7/9/2012 3:22:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem is, the state is massively split in the issue, and for some idiotic reason has a semi-theocratic FPTP system. Put in place a devolved southern region, followed by STV, and then the country's stability shall increase. If that increase is not enough, let sections declare independence.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
CiRrK
Posts: 670
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7/9/2012 3:22:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:12:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM, CiRrK wrote:

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.

I have no idea and won't pretend that that I do. I will say that regardless, defending property does not equate to owning it and a State solution is too generalized to account for various land claims by Palestinians and Jews in the same localized territory.

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.

Abolish it.

And u would prevent civil war, how?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/9/2012 3:23:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:05:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

It wasnt violently seized unless u r referring to the Romans. And I said protect, not seize.

According to the Bible, it was violently seized by Jews who killed Caananites, the original holders of the land. Unless you think the Bible is false, which I will be glad to accept, you are wrong in that regard.

What does "protect" mean?

Plus, how does protection make it mine? That's a non sequitor.

For example, the government can protect your house better than you can. Does that mean that the state should own your home?

Moreover, in modern times, the land was violently seized by the British and Jews through invasions.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:28:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:22:47 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM, CiRrK wrote:

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.

Abolish it.

And u would prevent civil war, how?

Where did I say to abolish the concept of defense or protection? I said abolish the State of Israel, a mere type of defense.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CiRrK
Posts: 670
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7/9/2012 3:31:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:28:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:22:47 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM, CiRrK wrote:

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.

Abolish it.

And u would prevent civil war, how?

Where did I say to abolish the concept of defense or protection? I said abolish the State of Israel, a mere type of defense.

Fiating the abolishment of the state doesnt fiat an alternative defense mechanism. But even conceding that it might your alternative does dissolves into picking sides - ergo more civil war.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:36:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:31:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:28:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Where did I say to abolish the concept of defense or protection? I said abolish the State of Israel, a mere type of defense.

Fiating the abolishment of the state doesnt fiat an alternative defense mechanism. But even conceding that it might your alternative does dissolves into picking sides - ergo more civil war.

And supporting a State solution exacerbates the problem since you're essentially claiming all land in the territory to belong to a single ethnic group, irrespective of actual land claims. Just saying that this area is Palistinian and this one is Jewish is picking sides + establishing ethnic tribalism (i.e. picking sides).
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CiRrK
Posts: 670
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7/9/2012 3:39:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:36:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:31:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:28:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:

Where did I say to abolish the concept of defense or protection? I said abolish the State of Israel, a mere type of defense.

Fiating the abolishment of the state doesnt fiat an alternative defense mechanism. But even conceding that it might your alternative does dissolves into picking sides - ergo more civil war.

And supporting a State solution exacerbates the problem since you're essentially claiming all land in the territory to belong to a single ethnic group, irrespective of actual land claims. Just saying that this area is Palistinian and this one is Jewish is picking sides + establishing ethnic tribalism (i.e. picking sides).

This is turning into forum banter. However, I think we have a topic if we both win our semi-final rounds in your tournament. :)
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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7/9/2012 3:47:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:39:59 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:36:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:31:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:

Fiating the abolishment of the state doesnt fiat an alternative defense mechanism. But even conceding that it might your alternative does dissolves into picking sides - ergo more civil war.

And supporting a State solution exacerbates the problem since you're essentially claiming all land in the territory to belong to a single ethnic group, irrespective of actual land claims. Just saying that this area is Palistinian and this one is Jewish is picking sides + establishing ethnic tribalism (i.e. picking sides).

This is turning into forum banter. However, I think we have a topic if we both win our semi-final rounds in your tournament. :)

Like on which is the best solution to the Israeli-Palestine conflict?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
CiRrK
Posts: 670
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7/9/2012 3:50:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:47:13 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:39:59 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:36:35 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:31:38 PM, CiRrK wrote:

Fiating the abolishment of the state doesnt fiat an alternative defense mechanism. But even conceding that it might your alternative does dissolves into picking sides - ergo more civil war.

And supporting a State solution exacerbates the problem since you're essentially claiming all land in the territory to belong to a single ethnic group, irrespective of actual land claims. Just saying that this area is Palistinian and this one is Jewish is picking sides + establishing ethnic tribalism (i.e. picking sides).

This is turning into forum banter. However, I think we have a topic if we both win our semi-final rounds in your tournament. :)

Like on which is the best solution to the Israeli-Palestine conflict?

Yes. We can each present our alternative.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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7/9/2012 4:54:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Who owned it first?" isn't a sensical way to approach the problem. The land has passed ownership countless times throughout its history and in ways that are morally ambiguous. After the 1948 war there were simply conflicting reports as to whether the arabs left their homes or whether they were kicked out. Then the Jews were kicked out even earlier, and then it's compounded by the whole question of living descendents of these ancient tribes (who are the living descendents of the canaanites?) plus the entire notion of divine warrant.

I say we just work with how things are and attempt to stabilize relations whenever things get out of wack.
MouthWash
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7/10/2012 1:43:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

And what, pray tell, would your definition of "violently seizing" be?
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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7/10/2012 1:46:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/9/2012 3:18:28 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:15:20 PM, CiRrK wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:12:51 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:09:28 PM, CiRrK wrote:

There is no way to determine who legitimately owned it. Some tribes fought -> Romans took over -> Various muslim kingdoms took over -> Colonialism -> UN protectorate -> Israeli State. So SPinko tell me who owned it.

I have no idea and won't pretend that that I do. I will say that regardless, defending property does not equate to owning it and a State solution is too generalized to account for various land claims by Palestinians and Jews in the same localized territory.

I intend to pick your brain cause I know you are decently intelligent. Im giving you fiat to magically alter the State of Israel. Go.

Abolish it.

And what would you replace it with? The State of Judea? Abolishing a political entity would not affect the ethnoreligious group currently residing there.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/10/2012 6:22:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/10/2012 1:43:36 AM, MouthWash wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:03:20 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/9/2012 3:02:37 PM, CiRrK wrote:
Whoever can protect it best. Thus, Israel is Israel.

Violently being able to seize something doesn't signify ownership.

And what, pray tell, would your definition of "violently seizing" be?

Taking control of something that belongs to someone else through violence or by obtaining it from someone else who used violence to secure it.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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7/11/2012 6:36:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This topic could have fit under Politics or Society depending on how you weight parts of the OP. We don't need a History forum.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light