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The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

16kadams
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7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US
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https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
1Historygenius
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7/15/2012 11:35:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 8:00:25 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Anyone read it? I just got it today. It's a must have for history buffs like myself.

Could you find this book on Amazon for me so I know which one your specifically talking about (I just feel there maybe more books with that title).
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

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royalpaladin
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7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.
1dustpelt
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7/16/2012 10:01:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
They just conquered too many people. If you conquer someone and then teach them your fighting tactics, they are going to use them to rebel! And then the foreign invaders, there were just too much trouble and it collapsed. It's happened to pretty much all the empires. Look at Genhis Khan's empire. And look at the British empire: used to govern 1/3 of the people in the world and now look at them. No empire stands forever.
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Lordknukle
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7/16/2012 10:08:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

The decline of its army led to its demise. I'm sure as a Neocon, that would not be a declining moral, right?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
DetectableNinja
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7/16/2012 11:35:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

Absolutely false. They were as debaucherous and bawdy at the end as they were long before. They thrived in socially liberal conditions.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
1Historygenius
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7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
DetectableNinja
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7/16/2012 11:41:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I don't think it was merely one thing. But I still maintain that morals had nothing or VERY little to do with it.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
16kadams
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7/16/2012 11:49:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

http://www.roman-colosseum.info...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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7/16/2012 11:50:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 10:08:29 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

The decline of its army led to its demise. I'm sure as a Neocon, that would not be a declining moral, right?

I am not a neocon
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
16kadams
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7/16/2012 11:52:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

Plagiarism: http://www.roman-colosseum.info...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
1Historygenius
Posts: 1,639
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7/16/2012 11:56:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:41:53 AM, DetectableNinja wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I don't think it was merely one thing. But I still maintain that morals had nothing or VERY little to do with it.

It still was something. And yes it was minor, but it is important that we look at all the problems. There off course key morals in Rome and those did decline during the fall of the empire. Morals led many of the peoples lives off course and as they decline the people of Rome acted different. You could say a decline in morals does lead to the fall of a superpower, but it was obviously not the only thing that led to its fall. The Romans also had to deal with wars against the Germanic Tribes and high military spending. The start of an introduction of a welfare program around the end of the empire contributed to its defeat as the people became lazy. So big government contributed to its defeat as well. There was corruption in the government and there was anatagonism between the senate and the emperor. So they were no longer bi-partisan and could not get anything done. A failing economy and large unemployment also took place. Among morals, ethics and values declined as well which I said contributed to making Romans different that they once were. Slave labor and natural disasters also happened.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
1Historygenius
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7/16/2012 11:57:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:52:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

Plagiarism: http://www.roman-colosseum.info...

I did not want to waste time typing up something, but thanks for placing the link.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
16kadams
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7/16/2012 12:00:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:57:41 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:52:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

Plagiarism: http://www.roman-colosseum.info...

I did not want to waste time typing up something, but thanks for placing the link.

So you plagiarized instead ...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
1Historygenius
Posts: 1,639
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7/16/2012 12:05:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 12:00:19 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:57:41 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:52:35 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

Plagiarism: http://www.roman-colosseum.info...

I did not want to waste time typing up something, but thanks for placing the link.

So you plagiarized instead ...

I don't mind.
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
Frederick53
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7/16/2012 12:19:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the explanation is in the title. Empire. When empires get too big they are unsustainable, and they fail. There were many internal problems as well, but that is the main reason.
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Lordknukle
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7/16/2012 2:07:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:50:07 AM, 16kadams wrote:
At 7/16/2012 10:08:29 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

The decline of its army led to its demise. I'm sure as a Neocon, that would not be a declining moral, right?

I am not a neocon

Sig'd. Too hilarious to pass up.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)
1Historygenius
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7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 3:48:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?

You're still not listening.

"Decline" implies that those things didn't exist from the beginning, which isn't true.
1Historygenius
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7/16/2012 4:18:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 3:48:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?

You're still not listening.

"Decline" implies that those things didn't exist from the beginning, which isn't true.

So you are saying there were bad morals from the beginning and large military spending and a huge welfare system?
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
ChickenTender
Posts: 40
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7/16/2012 9:12:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think you could also look at it as the the Decline and Fall of Italy, leading to the capital moving to Constantinople. As I understand it, the economic productivity of Italy declined, and a "parasitic" population of largely unproductive people grew there. When the capital eventually fell to the Ottomans, it seems many imperial bureaucrats may not have even missed a single week's pay. Multi-ethnic empires disappeared in the 20th century due to nationalism.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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7/16/2012 9:21:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There were a ton of factors that went into the Roman Empire collapsing. The thing that fascinates me is how hard it collapsed.

The Empire was huge and while the Eastern half survived the Western half was completely destroyed. It shows how the people and the local governments were completely reliant on the centralized government for support and leadership because without it the whole place fell to ruins very quickly.

No city states rose up, the empire couldn't be reformed. Without Rome the whole Western side was done for. That takes a lot of mismanagement to put half the known world under the sway of one city and then lose that one city.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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7/16/2012 9:24:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 4:18:44 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:48:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?

You're still not listening.

"Decline" implies that those things didn't exist from the beginning, which isn't true.

So you are saying there were bad morals from the beginning and large military spending and a huge welfare system?

Obviously they had a huge military from the beginning (that's how they started the Empire).

Unless you consider rape and violence to be good morals, then yes, they had poor morals from the beginning.
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
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7/16/2012 9:37:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

When have declining morals ever have a physical hold over the destiny, let alone, progress of a political unit??

I would say that declining morals CAN be viewed as an increasing sign of decline, though the two aren't necessarily easily correlated..
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
ChickenTender
Posts: 40
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7/16/2012 9:40:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Even in modern times we have problems with government being self-serving and parasitic. It was even worse in those times. There were just not enough stakeholders in the Western Empire to defend it from barbarians who wanted to loot it. Or perhaps more accurately, to reserve the right to loot to the Roman ruling classes.

At 7/16/2012 9:21:18 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
There were a ton of factors that went into the Roman Empire collapsing. The thing that fascinates me is how hard it collapsed.

The Empire was huge and while the Eastern half survived the Western half was completely destroyed. It shows how the people and the local governments were completely reliant on the centralized government for support and leadership because without it the whole place fell to ruins very quickly.

No city states rose up, the empire couldn't be reformed. Without Rome the whole Western side was done for. That takes a lot of mismanagement to put half the known world under the sway of one city and then lose that one city.
1Historygenius
Posts: 1,639
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7/16/2012 10:58:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 9:24:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 4:18:44 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:48:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?

You're still not listening.

"Decline" implies that those things didn't exist from the beginning, which isn't true.

So you are saying there were bad morals from the beginning and large military spending and a huge welfare system?

Obviously they had a huge military from the beginning (that's how they started the Empire).

Unless you consider rape and violence to be good morals, then yes, they had poor morals from the beginning.

Then why did they fall immediately?
"The chief business of the American people is business." - Calvin Coolidge

Latest debate - Reagan was a better President than Obama: http://www.debate.org...
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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7/16/2012 11:36:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 7/16/2012 10:58:15 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 9:24:28 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 4:18:44 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:48:40 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 3:45:57 PM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 2:37:36 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/16/2012 11:37:53 AM, 1Historygenius wrote:
At 7/16/2012 7:02:20 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 7/15/2012 11:24:49 PM, 16kadams wrote:
No. But tell me if it says declining morals lead to its decline
--> looks at US

LOL, that theory is nonsense. Rome was corrupt from the beginning. There was no such thing as "declining morals" unless rape, murder, etc. are considered moral in Christian theology.

Actually it was many things that led to the fall of the Roman Empire including a decline in morals. A decline in morals, especially in the rich upper classes and the emperors, had a devastating impact on the Romans. Immoral and promiscuous sexual behaviour including adultery and orgies. Emperors such as Tiberius kept groups of young boys for his pleasure, incest by Nero who also had a male slave castrated so he could take him as his wife, Elagabalus who forces a Vestal Virgin into marriage, Commodus with his harems of concubines who enraged Romans by sitting in the theatre dressed in a woman's garments. The decline in morals also effected the lower classes and slaves. Religious festivals such as Saturnalia and Bacchanalia where sacrifices, ribald songs, lewd acts and sexual promiscuity were practised. Bestiality and other lewd and sexually explicit acts were exhibited in the Colosseum arena to amuse the mob. Brothels and forced prostitution flourished. Widespread gambling on the chariot races and gladiatorial combats. Massive consumption of alcohol. The sadistic cruelty towards both man and beasts in the arena.

Anyone who believes that it was simply one thing that turned down the empire has to be incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say it was one thing.

My argument was that those things all existed since the dawn of the Roman Empire. They didn't begin in the middle; they existed from the beginning. Thus, there was no decline of morals because all of those things existed in the first place (decline implies a loss, and there was NO loss)

Yes there was a loss of morals. Didn't you read any comments above?

You're still not listening.

"Decline" implies that those things didn't exist from the beginning, which isn't true.

So you are saying there were bad morals from the beginning and large military spending and a huge welfare system?

Obviously they had a huge military from the beginning (that's how they started the Empire).

Unless you consider rape and violence to be good morals, then yes, they had poor morals from the beginning.

Then why did they fall immediately?

They fell immediately because of the invasion, but the reason that the invasion was successful and the Roman Army was weak was a result of many generations of events.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."