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Columbus Day

Subutai
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1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This forum needs more traffic. Therefore, I am going to create a new thread about twice a week here on various topics.

Columbus Day is my first. Should it be a national holiday? Should it be a holiday at all? This part of a passage from one of my history books explains why I say no:

Is it not Eurocentric, some scholars argue, to celebrate Columbus as the "discoverer" of a world long inhabited by Native Americans? Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas. Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases. In the opinion of one modern Indian leader - a view echoed by some historians - "Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent."

Consumed by the desire to wring profit from his voyages, Columbus hoped to find gold in the West Indies, and he dealt harshly with any island peoples who refused to assist him in that pursuit. Some he sent to Spain as slaves; others he distributed among his followers as laborers and concubines.
[1]

Should we really make a holiday for this man? And he didn't even do much to alter American history. Jamestown would most likely still have been there in 1607; Plymouth in 1620.

At the very least, stop Columbus Day from being a national holiday where the Federal Government closes (what am I saying!) and schools shut down.

Sources:

[1]: Davidson, James West, et al. Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. Boston: McGraw Hill, 2001. Print.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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1/8/2013 11:01:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It should be Erik the Red day.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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1/8/2013 11:53:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 11:01:49 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
It should be Erik the Red day.

Wouldn't Leif the Lucky day?
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

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bossyburrito
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1/9/2013 12:05:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 11:53:21 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/8/2013 11:01:49 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
It should be Erik the Red day.

Wouldn't Leif the Lucky day?

Damn, you're right. I was thinking of his dad.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/9/2013 6:40:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 11:53:21 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 1/8/2013 11:01:49 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
It should be Erik the Red day.

Wouldn't Leif the Lucky day?

That's better.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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1/9/2013 6:09:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM, Subutai wrote:
This forum needs more traffic. Therefore, I am going to create a new thread about twice a week here on various topics.

Columbus Day is my first. Should it be a national holiday? Should it be a holiday at all? This part of a passage from one of my history books explains why I say no:

Is it not Eurocentric, some scholars argue, to celebrate Columbus as the "discoverer" of a world long inhabited by Native Americans? Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas. Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases. In the opinion of one modern Indian leader - a view echoed by some historians - "Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent."

Consumed by the desire to wring profit from his voyages, Columbus hoped to find gold in the West Indies, and he dealt harshly with any island peoples who refused to assist him in that pursuit. Some he sent to Spain as slaves; others he distributed among his followers as laborers and concubines.
[1]

Should we really make a holiday for this man? And he didn't even do much to alter American history. Jamestown would most likely still have been there in 1607; Plymouth in 1620.

At the very least, stop Columbus Day from being a national holiday where the Federal Government closes (what am I saying!) and schools shut down.

Sources:

[1]: Davidson, James West, et al. Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. Boston: McGraw Hill, 2001. Print.

Well, let's see, Columbus Day honors a slave trader, shame on us for not abolishing it. Btw, see my post in the society section on Martin Luther King Day, http://www.debate.org...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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1/9/2013 6:11:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, let's see, Columbus Day honors a slave trader, shame on us for not abolishing it. Btw, see my post in the society section on Martin Luther King Day, http://www.debate.org......

Compared to the Soviet Union, Columbus was a saint - what's your problem with Columbus? Evil is entirely relative.
OMGJustinBieber
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1/9/2013 6:17:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 6:11:18 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Well, let's see, Columbus Day honors a slave trader, shame on us for not abolishing it. Btw, see my post in the society section on Martin Luther King Day, http://www.debate.org......

Compared to the Soviet Union, Columbus was a saint - what's your problem with Columbus? Evil is entirely relative.

Sorry, compared to America - what was I thinking?
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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1/10/2013 6:34:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Don't they already have a tacit, movable day like that in a number of Southern states?
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/11/2013 8:04:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 6:34:47 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Don't they already have a tacit, movable day like that in a number of Southern states?

I was not aware of any such thing.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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1/16/2013 5:18:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM, Subutai wrote:
This forum needs more traffic. Therefore, I am going to create a new thread about twice a week here on various topics.
If you insist.

Columbus Day is my first.
Awesome! We do not talk about Cristobal Colon enough.

Should it be a national holiday?
Most certainly.

Should it be a holiday at all?
I believe I answered that already.

This part of a passage from one of my history books explains why I say no:

Is it not Eurocentric, some scholars argue, to celebrate Columbus as the "discoverer" of a world long inhabited by Native Americans?
(A) What's wrong with Eurocentrism?

(B) I would say American Indian instead because Native American simply means born in America. So if a European couple came to America and had child, it would be a Native American.

Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas.
Why do we care about demographics again?

Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases.
That's complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps something close to that might be said of some of the Caribbean islands, but those islands were hardly even 5% of the American Indian population. Besides, over 60% of the people of the Caribbean have Taino DNA.

In the opinion of one modern Indian leader - a view echoed by some historians - "Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent."
That's complete and utter revisionist nonsense and demeans the lives of the people slaughtered by the Nazis. This is not to say that Columbus did not "break a few eggs" BUT there are orders of magnitudes between him and Hitler. If anything, the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas did more human sacrifices a year than Columbus could ever dream of doing in a life time and enough to make Hitler jealous!

Consumed by the desire to wring profit from his voyages, Columbus hoped to find gold in the West Indies, and he dealt harshly with any island peoples who refused to assist him in that pursuit. Some he sent to Spain as slaves; others he distributed among his followers as laborers and concubines. [1]
{: [1]: Davidson, James West, et al. Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. Boston: McGraw Hill, 2001. Print.}

True, but that hardly makes him Hitler. Not to mention that Slavery was abolished in Spain 50 years after Columbus discovered the New World. In case you haven't looked recently, virtually every non-English speaking country in the Americas is LOADED to the T!TS with Indians!

Should we really make a holiday for this
For shizzle ma nizzle!

And he didn't even do much to alter American history.
(A) By American history, do you mean "America" the continent/s (ie North & South America) or the country known today as the United States of America?

(B) Either case, he sure did influence American history.

Jamestown would most likely still have been there in 1607; Plymouth in 1620.
Sure, but how about the rest of the US of A? Three quarters of the country is named in Spanish! Maybe even more!

At the very least, stop Columbus Day from being a national holiday where the Federal Government closes (what am I saying!) and schools shut down.
Nuh huh, we need for our children to learn of their rich heritage.

I guess you'll have to work a little harder on revising history.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/16/2013 5:55:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 5:18:01 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM, Subutai wrote:
This forum needs more traffic. Therefore, I am going to create a new thread about twice a week here on various topics.
If you insist.

I see you don't like that...
Columbus Day is my first.
Awesome! We do not talk about Cristobal Colon enough.

Great.
Should it be a national holiday?
Most certainly.

Most certainly not.
Should it be a holiday at all?
I believe I answered that already.

This part of a passage from one of my history books explains why I say no:

Is it not Eurocentric, some scholars argue, to celebrate Columbus as the "discoverer" of a world long inhabited by Native Americans?
(A) What's wrong with Eurocentrism?

That would take away from America's uniqueness.
(B) I would say American Indian instead because Native American simply means born in America. So if a European couple came to America and had child, it would be a Native American.

Not the same thing.
Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas.
Why do we care about demographics again?

Read on and you'll see.
Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases.
That's complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps something close to that might be said of some of the Caribbean islands, but those islands were hardly even 5% of the American Indian population. Besides, over 60% of the people of the Caribbean have Taino DNA.

Now you're just ignoring history.

What delivered a more lasting shock to Indian civilizations [than invasion] was exposure to European infections. Smallpox, influenza, typhus, and measles, disease strains against which the Indians had developed no biological resistance, ravaged entire villages and tribes.

In Mesoamerica, a native population of 20 million was reduced to 2 million.
[1]
In the opinion of one modern Indian leader - a view echoed by some historians - "Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent."
That's complete and utter revisionist nonsense and demeans the lives of the people slaughtered by the Nazis. This is not to say that Columbus did not "break a few eggs" BUT there are orders of magnitudes between him and Hitler. If anything, the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas did more human sacrifices a year than Columbus could ever dream of doing in a life time and enough to make Hitler jealous!

I'm not demaning the lives of the people slaughtered by the Nazis. That's like saying I can't show empathy for one man's death because some idiot thinks that another dead man's life will be demeaned. You are correct in your latter statement, however, the effect to which you are interpreting it as is overblown and nowhere near the size disaster Columbus brought to the New World.
Consumed by the desire to wring profit from his voyages, Columbus hoped to find gold in the West Indies, and he dealt harshly with any island peoples who refused to assist him in that pursuit. Some he sent to Spain as slaves; others he distributed among his followers as laborers and concubines. [1]
{: [1]: Davidson, James West, et al. Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. Boston: McGraw Hill, 2001. Print.}

True, but that hardly makes him Hitler. Not to mention that Slavery was abolished in Spain 50 years after Columbus discovered the New World. In case you haven't looked recently, virtually every non-English speaking country in the Americas is LOADED to the T!TS with Indians!

Proof?
Should we really make a holiday for this
For shizzle ma nizzle!

Speak English.
And he didn't even do much to alter American history.
(A) By American history, do you mean "America" the continent/s (ie North & South America) or the country known today as the United States of America?

The latter.
(B) Either case, he sure did influence American history.

Not much. Not to the extent Leif Erricson had.
Jamestown would most likely still have been there in 1607; Plymouth in 1620.
Sure, but how about the rest of the US of A? Three quarters of the country is named in Spanish! Maybe even more!

So? The southwest might be more English.
At the very least, stop Columbus Day from being a national holiday where the Federal Government closes (what am I saying!) and schools shut down.
Nuh huh, we need for our children to learn of their rich heritage.

I didn't say don't teach children about Columbus. All I said was don't glorify him as some kind of demigod.
I guess you'll have to work a little harder on revising history.

No, you're the one revising history. It's time for you to hit the books.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Contra
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1/16/2013 6:11:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Columbus did not discover America. However, he renewed interest in this continent, because there was more to it than the mere islands Europeans had initially found.

As a slave trader I don't really respect him.
"The solution [for Republicans] is to admit that Bush was a bad president, stop this racist homophobic stuff, stop trying to give most of the tax cuts to the rich, propose a real alternative to Obamacare that actually works, and propose smart free market solutions to our economic problems." - Distraff

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Subutai
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1/16/2013 6:19:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 6:11:45 PM, Contra wrote:
Columbus did not discover America.

My point exactly.
However, he renewed interest in this continent, because there was more to it than the mere islands Europeans had initially found.

You're right. I'll admit, he did renew interest in this continent, but it wasn't like someone else wasn't going to come along and discover it. The credit should go to everybody.
As a slave trader I don't really respect him.

+1.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/16/2013 8:15:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?

"You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler."

Why, because my quote in the OP said that Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/16/2013 8:47:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 8:15:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?

"You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler."

Why, because my quote in the OP said that Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent.

But we don't do any sh1t like your proposed Hitler day, so how are they alike?
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/16/2013 9:03:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 8:47:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 8:15:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?

"You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler."

Why, because my quote in the OP said that Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent.

But we don't do any sh1t like your proposed Hitler day, so how are they alike?

I didn't say we had one. I said Columbus Day would be like a Hitler Day.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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1/16/2013 9:53:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 9:03:48 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 8:47:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 8:15:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?

"You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler."

Why, because my quote in the OP said that Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent.

But we don't do any sh1t like your proposed Hitler day, so how are they alike?

I didn't say we had one. I said Columbus Day would be like a Hitler Day.

How so?
Subutai
Posts: 3,197
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1/16/2013 10:32:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 9:53:35 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 9:03:48 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 8:47:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 8:15:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:58:15 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/16/2013 7:47:27 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 6:43:31 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/12/2013 8:47:19 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/11/2013 9:01:50 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Sound horrible to you?

The second part, yes. But you just tacked that on. I mean, even something as innocuous as Arbor Day becomes horrific if you add stuff like that.

The stuff I added were just exaggerated examples of how we would celebrate a "Hitler Day".

And why would that be relevant to the conversation?

I was making a analogy that having a Columbus Day is like having a Hitler day.

In what way?

"You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler."

Why, because my quote in the OP said that Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent.

But we don't do any sh1t like your proposed Hitler day, so how are they alike?

I didn't say we had one. I said Columbus Day would be like a Hitler Day.

How so?

I just said so.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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1/19/2013 10:20:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 5:18:01 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM, Subutai wrote:
This forum needs more traffic. Therefore, I am going to create a new thread about twice a week here on various topics.
If you insist.
I see you don't like that...
I am indifferent.

Columbus Day is my first.
Awesome! We do not talk about Cristobal Colon enough.
Great.
Should it be a national holiday?
Most certainly.
Most certainly not.
It already is!

Should it be a holiday at all?
I believe I answered that already.
This part of a passage from one of my history books explains why I say no:
Is it not Eurocentric, some scholars argue, to celebrate Columbus as the "discoverer" of a world long inhabited by Native Americans?
(A) What's wrong with Eurocentrism?
That would take away from America's uniqueness.
How so?

(B) I would say American Indian instead because Native American simply means born in America. So if a European couple came to America and had child, it would be a Native American.
Not the same thing.
Please demonstrate.

Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas.
Why do we care about demographics again?
Read on and you'll see.
OK.

Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases.
That's complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps something close to that might be said of some of the Caribbean islands, but those islands were hardly even 5% of the American Indian population. Besides, over 60% of the people of the Caribbean have Taino DNA.
Now you're just ignoring history.
Gra

What delivered a more lasting shock to Indian civilizations [than invasion] was exposure to European infections. Smallpox, influenza, typhus, and measles, disease strains against which the Indians had developed no biological resistance, ravaged entire villages and tribes.
I see, so you are in favor of isolationism.

In Mesoamerica, a native population of 20 million was reduced to 2 million.[1]
And? The Bubonic Plague killed over 25 million in the Roman Empire alone!

In the opinion of one modern Indian leader - a view echoed by some historians - "Columbus makes Hitler look like a juvenile delinquent."
That's complete and utter revisionist nonsense and demeans the lives of the people slaughtered by the Nazis. This is not to say that Columbus did not "break a few eggs" BUT there are orders of magnitudes between him and Hitler. If anything, the Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas did more human sacrifices a year than Columbus could ever dream of doing in a life time and enough to make Hitler jealous!
I'm not demaning the lives of the people slaughtered by the Nazis. That's like saying I can't show empathy for one man's death because some idiot thinks that another dead man's life will be demeaned.
What's demaning? No, it's like some idiot always has to compare their agenda to the holocaust when there is nothing like the holocaust.

You are correct in your latter statement, however, the effect to which you are interpreting it as is overblown and nowhere near the size disaster Columbus brought to the New World.
The Nazis didn't inadvertently infect the Jews with smallpox.

Consumed by the desire to wring profit from his voyages, Columbus hoped to find gold in the West Indies, and he dealt harshly with any island peoples who refused to assist him in that pursuit. Some he sent to Spain as slaves; others he distributed among his followers as laborers and concubines. [1]
{: [1]: Davidson, James West, et al. Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. Boston: McGraw Hill, 2001. Print.}
True, but that hardly makes him Hitler. Not to mention that Slavery was abolished in Spain 50 years after Columbus discovered the New World. In case you haven't looked recently, virtually every non-English speaking country in the Americas is LOADED to the T!TS with Indians!
Proof?
...Is in the pudding. You must lead a sheltered life, I suggest you do some traveling and enlighten yourself first-hand. Begin in Mexico and then work your way through Central America. If you still haven't had your fill of Indians of the Americas, then a final tour of South America ought to do the trick.

Should we really make a holiday for this
For shizzle ma nizzle!
Speak English.
How Eurocentrist of you! One might even think you a bigot!

And he didn't even do much to alter American history.
(A) By American history, do you mean "America" the continent/s (ie North & South America) or the country known today as the United States of America?
The latter.
Ah, so you are also Anglocentrist as well! That's fine with me, as I am familiar with this view as well; however, if this is your view then I have to tell you that neither Columbus nor Spain had much to do with the genocide of the North American Indian. You might have to actually look in the mirror and your family tree for that one.

(B) Either case, he sure did influence American history.
Not much. Not to the extent Leif Erricson had.
Yes, that's why we have "Leif Ericson Day" and our nation's capital is called Washington DE, District of Ericson . Care to back that up Laddie?

Jamestown would most likely still have been there in 1607; Plymouth in 1620.
Sure, but how about the rest of the US of A? Three quarters of the country is named in Spanish! Maybe even more!
So? The southwest might be more English.
The southwest? You mean Oregon, Montana, California, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida? Hardly the southwest! Not to mention the myriad of towns and cities even within the 13 original colonies that have Spanish names. Come on now, it's alright to be Anglocentric but not to the point where we deny reality.

At the very least, stop Columbus Day from being a national holiday where the Federal Government closes (what am I saying!) and schools shut down.
Nuh huh, we need for our children to learn of their rich heritage.
I didn't say don't teach children about Columbus. All I said was don't glorify him as some kind of demigod.
He's hardly glorified as some kind of demigod. I don't think anyone in our country puts Columbus on par with any of the Founding Fathers, which are the closest thing to "demigod" that we have...then again, there seems to be tons of revisionism with these men as well.

I guess you'll have to work a little harder on revising history.
No, you're the one revising history. It's time for you to hit the books.
Yes, the "I know you are but what am I" defense: brilliant!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tBoonePickens
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1/19/2013 10:34:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 6:11:45 PM, Contra wrote:
Columbus did not discover America. However, he renewed interest in this continent, because there was more to it than the mere islands Europeans had initially found.
1) To the Europeans, Columbus did discover America; not just Newfoundland, North and South America.

2) America is 1 continent that we've since divide in 2: North and South America. Regardless, they are both America.

3) America get's its name from Amerigo Vespucci, chief navigator of Spain.

As a slave trader I don't really respect him.
And rightfully so.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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1/19/2013 10:45:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/16/2013 5:55:58 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/16/2013 5:18:01 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 1/8/2013 1:49:39 PM, Subutai wrote:

** Correction **

Furthermore, research has now made clearer the demographic disaster that followed upon Europeans' arrival in the Americas.
Why do we care about demographics again?
Read on and you'll see.
OK.

Columbus launched a process of invasion and occupation that, over the following century and a half, reduced the native population by perhaps 90 percent through slavery, explotation, war, and the scourge of Eurasian diseases.
That's complete and utter nonsense. Perhaps something close to that might be said of some of the Caribbean islands, but those islands were hardly even 5% of the American Indian population. Besides, over 60% of the people of the Caribbean have Taino DNA.
Now you're just ignoring history.
You're not qualified to make that statement because that would require you to actually know history. The Spanish & Portuguese imported their slaves from Africa; the vast majority of the Indian population were not slaves.

Because you haven't answered it: why do we care about demographics again?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
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1/20/2013 11:00:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/11/2013 8:04:27 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/10/2013 6:34:47 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 1/10/2013 10:08:07 AM, Subutai wrote:
At 1/9/2013 6:13:34 PM, drafterman wrote:
Why does it matter what we call it?

You might as well have a Hitler day where everyone in America gets off work and school and burns down all Holocaust museums and sings praises to Hitler.

Don't they already have a tacit, movable day like that in a number of Southern states?

I was not aware of any such thing.

Alas ignorance, as the expression goes, is certainly no defense.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.