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British should not fight with Germany

suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/15/2013 1:38:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
World War 2, the war caused British everything, their power, their empire, just because the Nazi is invaded Poland. In fact, Hitler proposed several ceasefire to the British even after the Fall of France.

Is it a mistake, Britain didn't make peace with Germany when they have a chanced and preserved whatever resource they have for the war in Pacific when the Japanese is invading their colony? Or may be politically, it is a mistake all along the way ever since the UK decided to ally with France and got themselves involved with continental politic?

No moral high ground is question here, we only talk in term of benefit the British Empire could have harvested vs the risk of having unified Europe, which could post a threat to its metropolitan security.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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3/16/2013 12:20:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
You really think Hitler would have left Britain alone? Soon as Germany got the resources that is Russia they'd have turned full force on Britain.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/16/2013 4:21:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/16/2013 12:20:52 AM, lewis20 wrote:
You really think Hitler would have left Britain alone? Soon as Germany got the resources that is Russia they'd have turned full force on Britain.

That will be at least 2 years before that could have accomplish, plenty of time for Britain to fortified its colony and resource in fighting with Germany. May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.

Actually, I think there is more reason to believe that Hitler would leave Britain alone, if not provoked. First is that he is unable to invade the British island because German air force is inferior and the he doesn't have enough naval asset to commit to such operation. Second Hitler is quite friendly to Britain, mush more than how she think of him. I remember that he once said Britain is the most impressive nation on earth (and Russia is the worst), in fact because Britain had refused his alliance so that he resort to Soviet during his invasion of Poland.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/18/2013 3:05:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.
Hitler committed suicide, your argument is invalid.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
suttichart.denpruektham
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3/18/2013 1:52:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 3:05:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.
Hitler committed suicide, your argument is invalid.

Does it has any meaningful point you would like to demonstrate?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/18/2013 3:57:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 1:52:47 PM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 3/18/2013 3:05:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.
Hitler committed suicide, your argument is invalid.

Does it has any meaningful point you would like to demonstrate?

MAD only means anything to people who are trying to avoid being blown up.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/19/2013 8:56:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/18/2013 3:05:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.
Hitler committed suicide, your argument is invalid.

Not to say that the OP made a good argument...

And perhaps his argument as it stands is invalid, exactly because Hitler wouldn't choose life over Anything...

but that doesn't mean his argument can't be convincing.

Sure, Hitler didn't value his continued existence over all other things... but that doesn't mean it wasn't of any value to him. Just not of value under certain conditions... like being surrounded by superior enemy forces who might kill him painfully, or put him up on a stand where he'll have to suffer the indignity of answering to the people he harmed, and then, in All Likelihood, be put to death.

Barring those conditions (which the OP's suggestion basically does) one can still assume that Hitler would have wanted to continue to live... He Definitely seemed to live, and pursue his goals, robustly (if horribly so) before the coming upon the conditions in which he killed himself.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/19/2013 8:58:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/19/2013 8:56:50 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/18/2013 3:05:28 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
May be if both side had finished their research on atomic weapon within that time, the war will never occurred because of the MAD.
Hitler committed suicide, your argument is invalid.

Not to say that the OP made a good argument...

And perhaps his argument as it stands is invalid, exactly because Hitler wouldn't choose life over Anything...

Technically invalid that is, simply because it doesn't Have to be so through his premises alone.

however, there are other reasonable premises which can support it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/20/2013 12:47:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Matt, the conditions in which he might still value existing are conditions in which he wins any nuclear war that comes about.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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3/20/2013 1:51:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He would certainly have used it, if he can finish it first but I don't think he is mad enough to have some hell tour with his friend Stalin, though that would do the world a favour.

Any way, that is just one of the reasons I bought to support the fact that Britian shouldn't really have fight Germany in 1939. She can do so in 1942-43, focus her attentions on Japanese invasion, and properly made alliance with US. There is all the reasons to believe that Hitler would have left her alone, at least until the Soviet is defeated, which so far is not happening that easily.

She could even support if she feel ready, like when her colonies are fortified or the Japaneses is kept in check. Hitler have no mean to invade England anyway.

But I agreed that fighting with Japanese is not easy task for Britain, most of her fleet is a battleship which is obsolete with the development of carrier group. May be a few more fleet isn't going to help mush but still better than waste it on someone else war.
aitealan
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3/20/2013 3:05:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hitler wouldn't have been able to take Britain very easily. Given how many colonies we had, and our defensive position - he'd have been better off allying with us.

But I do think, over the years, Hitler would have worked up a big enough force after taking Europe, to conquer Britain.

Our resources would eventually run out, we'd not be able to defend our island. We'd be constantly under siege and the Nazis would have invaded and eventually forced us into serving them.

We were right to attack when Hitler invaded Poland - and we should have done sooner when he began annexing parts of former Germany.

There was no peace with Hitler, not at the height of the Nazi regime. He was utterly mad, and had no concept of what reality was. You cannot reason with, or trust, someone who is insane.
suttichart.denpruektham
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3/21/2013 3:51:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/20/2013 3:05:09 PM, aitealan wrote:
Hitler wouldn't have been able to take Britain very easily. Given how many colonies we had, and our defensive position - he'd have been better off allying with us.

But I do think, over the years, Hitler would have worked up a big enough force after taking Europe, to conquer Britain.

Our resources would eventually run out, we'd not be able to defend our island. We'd be constantly under siege and the Nazis would have invaded and eventually forced us into serving them.

We were right to attack when Hitler invaded Poland - and we should have done sooner when he began annexing parts of former Germany.

There was no peace with Hitler, not at the height of the Nazi regime. He was utterly mad, and had no concept of what reality was. You cannot reason with, or trust, someone who is insane.

You are a Brit?

Anyway, I am totally agreed with you that Britain should have invaded Germany just when Hitler stated to rearm his forces but if the rearmament is complete, it is no longer a wise decision to start a fight head on. Your main partner on a continental battle, the French, was already proven to be ineffective against modernized German force. Starting a war a little early shouldn"t just change anything.
I would never have doubt that it is the best of British interest not to see a unified Europe. History has proved that whenever the continental Europe is unified, its leader always aim for Britain next (Napoleon, Caesar etc.) Even , in this present time, the European Union also do that through peaceful trade union (and success, should have done that centuries ago -_-)
The only point I would like to make here is that once the German had finished its new armed forces, and the Japanese had officially adopt their Southern Strike Group, waging a war in Europe is madness. Almost all of your territory, economy, empire is across the sea, and all of that is taken pieces by pieces. Not only you cannot properly defend your colony, it also drained up your economy to the extreme level. In the end it caused you everything. If it isn"t favourable to fight in Europe at a time, I think you should just wait and see until a new round of opportunity has emerged.