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When is the decline of the east

suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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6/4/2013 9:48:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The east (in this case, I am referring to Roman Greek of Byzantine, Arab World, and the old Ottoman) have always been the European scientific, cultural, and trading center of the medieval world up to the Renaissance. They invent alcohol, grenade, gun powder, and impressive naval architect.

Since when that the European nation outperform them in term of technology and military achievement? What is the cutting point that contribute to European victory in technological arm race?
Subutai
Posts: 3,223
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6/5/2013 8:31:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Enemies all around the Byzantine Empire forced its decline. When the Western Roman Empire fragmented, many new nations were created. General Belisarius made a half-hearted attempt to recover them, but as soon as he was recalled to face the Persian threat, his gains fell quickly. In addition, the rise of Islam basically took the eastern part of the empire away. Further, the Seljuk Turks laid waste to Anatolia, and destroyed any chance the Byzantine Empire would have of recovering that territory.

The two mortal blows were Constaninople's sack during the Fourth Crusade and the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

Civil war helped percipitate their territorial losses as well.

In the end, it was because the Byzantine Empire was slowly constricted after Justinian's reign, until pretty much only Constantinople was left, which fell shortly thereafter.
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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6/5/2013 9:55:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
An empire being overrun with barbarians is a pretty common historical occurrence, and doesn't always spell decline and defeat. After all, the Middle East was devastated after the Mongol invasion, but the Ottoman Empire eventually reunited them and returned them as a major world power. But they fell, and eventually Western powers fragmented and divided a region which, for over a millennium, had tended towards unity and empire. It did this, I think, in part because the colonialism involved provided profit to powerful private enterprises, and in part because it prevented another large power from rising in the east to challenge them. The fact is that Vienna was once besieged, and Europe was right to play defensively. Divided, the near-east has been tearing itself apart through ethnic and sectarian warfare ever since, weakening itself as the West takes advantage of the situation to glut themselves on natural resources.

As to why the Ottomans fell, I rather like this analysis:
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/8/2013 1:43:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 9:48:13 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
The east (in this case, I am referring to Roman Greek of Byzantine, Arab World, and the old Ottoman) have always been the European scientific, cultural, and trading center of the medieval world up to the Renaissance. They invent alcohol, grenade, gun powder, and impressive naval architect.

Alcohol was prevalent before Rome split up into east west. Gunpowder was not a Roman invention.

Since when that the European nation outperform them in term of technology and military achievement? What is the cutting point that contribute to European victory in technological arm race?

Industrial revolution and the primacy and necessity of a navy to exploit the fruits of global colonization/imperialism. Before such advents the Ottomans were quite strong.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/8/2013 1:50:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/5/2013 9:55:13 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
An empire being overrun with barbarians is a pretty common historical occurrence, and doesn't always spell decline and defeat. After all, the Middle East was devastated after the Mongol invasion, but the Ottoman Empire eventually reunited them and returned them as a major world power. But they fell, and eventually Western powers fragmented and divided a region which, for over a millennium, had tended towards unity and empire. It did this, I think, in part because the colonialism involved provided profit to powerful private enterprises, and in part because it prevented another large power from rising in the east to challenge them. The fact is that Vienna was once besieged, and Europe was right to play defensively. Divided, the near-east has been tearing itself apart through ethnic and sectarian warfare ever since, weakening itself as the West takes advantage of the situation to glut themselves on natural resources.

I fully agree with this analysis. My name is wrichcirw and I support this message. =)

As to why the Ottomans fell, I rather like this analysis:
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
imabench
Posts: 21,219
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6/8/2013 1:59:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/4/2013 9:48:13 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
The east (in this case, I am referring to Roman Greek of Byzantine, Arab World, and the old Ottoman) have always been the European scientific, cultural, and trading center of the medieval world up to the Renaissance. They invent alcohol, grenade, gun powder, and impressive naval architect.

Im pretty sure that the Chinese invented gunpowder...

Since when that the European nation outperform them in term of technology and military achievement? What is the cutting point that contribute to European victory in technological arm race?
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Just-Your-Average-Atheist
Posts: 94
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6/8/2013 8:09:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/8/2013 1:59:26 PM, imabench wrote:
At 6/4/2013 9:48:13 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
The east (in this case, I am referring to Roman Greek of Byzantine, Arab World, and the old Ottoman) have always been the European scientific, cultural, and trading center of the medieval world up to the Renaissance. They invent alcohol, grenade, gun powder, and impressive naval architect.

Im pretty sure that the Chinese invented gunpowder...

Since when that the European nation outperform them in term of technology and military achievement? What is the cutting point that contribute to European victory in technological arm race?
They invented gunpowder when trying to create a serum for immortality. How ironic, eh?
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