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Superpowers throughout history.

AlbinoBunny
Posts: 3,781
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6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Volkskorps
Posts: 61
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7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.
FrackJack
Posts: 1,392
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7/2/2013 3:12:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.
: At 8/8/2013 6:15:09 PM, AnDoctuir wrote:
: The idiots are rebelling.

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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/3/2013 11:04:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

Most of Christian mythology is based upon Egyptian mythology.

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

Ming Dynasty was the dark ages for China. Their fleet found America, but because of the identity crisis they suffered after the Mongols, they decided not to colonize it. The Ming is known for China becoming extremely insular, forsaking "non-Chinese" territories that were part of China proper before the Mongols, and this insularity proved to be extremely detrimental when faced with the Western challenge.

There's nothing exceptional about the pronounced technological advantages enjoyed by China during the Ming. The Ming is exceptional for being the time, along with the Yuan, when China's prodigious advantages were slowly but surely ceded to more adventurous nations and civilizations.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
CanWeKnow
Posts: 217
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7/3/2013 3:21:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Generic Physical Superpowers

Superstrength
Speed
Durability
Agility/reflexes
Healing/regeneration
Supersenses
Sight/hearing/smell/taste/touch
Sensing danger (spider-sense)
Sensing other types of events (dishonesty, murder, etc.)
The ability to remove senses (like inflicting blindness, etc.)
Longevity/immortality

Forms of Transportation

Climbing/wall-crawling
Swimming/water-breathing
Flight
Teleportation
Exceptional leaping (e.g. the Hulk)
Phasing/intangibility

Time-Based Abilities

Temporal manipulation (like The Matrix)
Time travel
Prophecy

Elemental Control/Manipulation

Basic elements (fire, water and/or ice, earth, wind)
Electricity
Light
Darkness and/or shadows
Gravity
Magnetic forces
Radiation
Energy
Sound
Nature

Generic Mental Abilities

Skills and/or knowledge
Popular categories: science, mechanical, computer/electronics, weapons-handling/military, driving, occult/magical.
Super-intelligence
Resourcefulness ("I"m never more than a carton of baking soda away from a doomsday device")

Psychic Superpowers

Telekinesis (moving objects mentally)
Telepathy (reading minds)
Mind-to-mind communication
Mind-control
Possession (total mental control)
Memory manipulation (may include creation/alteration/deletion)
Mentally generated weaponry/objects
Mindblast
Ability to locate someone mentally
Forcefields
"Psychometry""the ability to learn things about the past or future of an object by touching it

Biological Control

Acid/poison
Controlling plants and/or animals
Shapeshifting (animals).
Shapeshifting (people)"mainly useful for disguises/stealth.

Miscellaneous Talents

Elasticity
Self-destruction
Self-liquification
Gaseous form
Growth/shrinking
Self-duplication
Invisibility
Absorbing someone else"s powers
Negating someone else"s powers
Luck manipulation (good luck for hero and/or bad luck for enemies)
Illusions
Pocket space"the ability to hold and remove objects so that only the user can retrieve them. It could be used for carrying really heavy equipment, hiding valuable and/or stolen and/or highly explosive goods, concealing weapons, smuggling candy into movie theaters, etc.
Ability to control density

You meant super hero powers right? :D
SRC: http://www.superheronation.com...
llamainmypocket
Posts: 253
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7/3/2013 5:49:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The diminish in power and authority of the previous powers due to ineffective administrating and/or loss of wealth left a vacuum by which new powers came to be out of effective administrating and/or the accumulation wealth.
Izazovnog
Posts: 15
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7/7/2013 3:39:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
China was a superpower, so was Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Carthage, Ancient China, Muslim caliphates, ottoman empire, Spain, France, Holly Roman Empire, Nazi Germany, the United Kingdom e.c.t.
Debate! Challenge me, it will be fun!
Jack212
Posts: 572
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7/28/2013 1:43:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:04:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

Most of Christian mythology is based upon Egyptian mythology.

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

Ming Dynasty was the dark ages for China. Their fleet found America, but because of the identity crisis they suffered after the Mongols, they decided not to colonize it. The Ming is known for China becoming extremely insular, forsaking "non-Chinese" territories that were part of China proper before the Mongols, and this insularity proved to be extremely detrimental when faced with the Western challenge.

There's nothing exceptional about the pronounced technological advantages enjoyed by China during the Ming. The Ming is exceptional for being the time, along with the Yuan, when China's prodigious advantages were slowly but surely ceded to more adventurous nations and civilizations.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

Judeo-Christian mythology is based on Sumerian and Canaanite mythology, not Egyptian. Egypt invaded Palestine during the New Kingdom, and only stopped because the Pharaoh decided to sign a peace treaty with the Hittites and have a political marriage.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/28/2013 10:07:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/28/2013 1:43:52 AM, Jack212 wrote:
At 7/3/2013 11:04:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

Most of Christian mythology is based upon Egyptian mythology.

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

Ming Dynasty was the dark ages for China. Their fleet found America, but because of the identity crisis they suffered after the Mongols, they decided not to colonize it. The Ming is known for China becoming extremely insular, forsaking "non-Chinese" territories that were part of China proper before the Mongols, and this insularity proved to be extremely detrimental when faced with the Western challenge.

There's nothing exceptional about the pronounced technological advantages enjoyed by China during the Ming. The Ming is exceptional for being the time, along with the Yuan, when China's prodigious advantages were slowly but surely ceded to more adventurous nations and civilizations.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

Judeo-Christian mythology is based on Sumerian and Canaanite mythology, not Egyptian. Egypt invaded Palestine during the New Kingdom, and only stopped because the Pharaoh decided to sign a peace treaty with the Hittites and have a political marriage.

I didn't say anything about Judaism.

http://www.egyptorigins.org...
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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7/30/2013 1:34:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.

The Egyptian is questionable to this thread. I would rather Egypt position as super power is more so in its cultural, not military aspect.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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7/30/2013 11:53:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 1:34:43 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.

The Egyptian is questionable to this thread. I would rather Egypt position as super power is more so in its cultural, not military aspect.

It still applies. Egypt was an uncontested, civilized power within its sphere of influence well before later civilizations like Rome rose to contest it, and had a formidable military for its time.

If you say that Egypt was too regional, you could apply that to any ancient civilization, and say that the "Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French" were also not superpowers, since they did not have anything resembling global reach.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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7/31/2013 7:12:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/30/2013 11:53:48 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/30/2013 1:34:43 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.

The Egyptian is questionable to this thread. I would rather Egypt position as super power is more so in its cultural, not military aspect.

It still applies. Egypt was an uncontested, civilized power within its sphere of influence well before later civilizations like Rome rose to contest it, and had a formidable military for its time.

If you say that Egypt was too regional, you could apply that to any ancient civilization, and say that the "Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French" were also not superpowers, since they did not have anything resembling global reach.

The Greek and Roman, and China, or even Mongol can project their military might in at least 2 sphere of influence, making them militarily superior, at least comparatively. Egypt on the other hand can never project their power beyond their historical sphere, making them militarily inferior, which became more pronounced one other civilization rose to contest as you say.

I agree with you that there are no real global super power, at least until the age of imperialism but even so the degree of their military achievement can be compare, and no matter how I look Egypt is not on the top basket.
Noctan
Posts: 420
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8/6/2013 4:52:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Romans, definitely. They made all sorts of inventions and implemented them into their cities, and conquering others.
I can manage my anger if people can manage their stupidity.
Volkskorps
Posts: 61
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8/26/2013 5:51:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/3/2013 11:04:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

Most of Christian mythology is based upon Egyptian mythology.

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

Ming Dynasty was the dark ages for China. Their fleet found America, but because of the identity crisis they suffered after the Mongols, they decided not to colonize it. The Ming is known for China becoming extremely insular, forsaking "non-Chinese" territories that were part of China proper before the Mongols, and this insularity proved to be extremely detrimental when faced with the Western challenge.

There's nothing exceptional about the pronounced technological advantages enjoyed by China during the Ming. The Ming is exceptional for being the time, along with the Yuan, when China's prodigious advantages were slowly but surely ceded to more adventurous nations and civilizations.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

Does not justify not putting Ming up there when Egypt is on the list.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2013 7:09:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 5:51:30 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 7/3/2013 11:04:45 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

Most of Christian mythology is based upon Egyptian mythology.

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

Ming Dynasty was the dark ages for China. Their fleet found America, but because of the identity crisis they suffered after the Mongols, they decided not to colonize it. The Ming is known for China becoming extremely insular, forsaking "non-Chinese" territories that were part of China proper before the Mongols, and this insularity proved to be extremely detrimental when faced with the Western challenge.

There's nothing exceptional about the pronounced technological advantages enjoyed by China during the Ming. The Ming is exceptional for being the time, along with the Yuan, when China's prodigious advantages were slowly but surely ceded to more adventurous nations and civilizations.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

Does not justify not putting Ming up there when Egypt is on the list.

Most of my point was that there's no reason to be specific to the Ming when it comes to China. It should be most of China's history with the Ming actually being cited as a period of exceptional weakness. India should also be included, as India's cultural influence was pronounced east of its borders - for example, empires like the Khmer were Hindu empires. But, most Western views do not take most of Asia seriously to any degree. It's typically a form of hubris or ignorance.

There is the running theme in the OP's list of countries that had contact with western Europe before colonization, as is typically true of most lists like this. To be fair to the OP, "etc" would cover such oversights.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/26/2013 7:12:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/31/2013 7:12:48 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 7/30/2013 11:53:48 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 7/30/2013 1:34:43 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 6/30/2013 12:42:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

In each example there is a common thread of military dominance.

The Egyptian is questionable to this thread. I would rather Egypt position as super power is more so in its cultural, not military aspect.

It still applies. Egypt was an uncontested, civilized power within its sphere of influence well before later civilizations like Rome rose to contest it, and had a formidable military for its time.

If you say that Egypt was too regional, you could apply that to any ancient civilization, and say that the "Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French" were also not superpowers, since they did not have anything resembling global reach.

The Greek and Roman, and China, or even Mongol can project their military might in at least 2 sphere of influence, making them militarily superior, at least comparatively. Egypt on the other hand can never project their power beyond their historical sphere, making them militarily inferior, which became more pronounced one other civilization rose to contest as you say.

This depends upon how you define "2 spheres of influence". Egypt was composed of the Upper and Lower Nile regions, and given that it achieved a sizable empire thousands of years before other nations even existed, one can easily make the argument that it was the pre-eminent civilization in human history.

I agree with you that there are no real global super power, at least until the age of imperialism but even so the degree of their military achievement can be compare, and no matter how I look Egypt is not on the top basket.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Etudiant
Posts: 25
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8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

I think you are wrong about Egypt. I guess it does depend on the historical period that we are considering, however, Egypt was, after all, one of the first states. Egyptians were familiar with astronomy, math, architecture and art, when many people around the world were still living in rather primitive social congregations. China, on the other hand, indeed had a huge leverage in the region, but, historically, its influence was always limited to Asia. In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had. They lost many major battles to other civilizations including Arabs in 7 century, Mongols, Japan and of course the Opium Wars. Military potency, in my opinion, is an important factor that has to be present in the arsenal of any superpower.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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8/27/2013 2:07:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

I think you are wrong about Egypt. I guess it does depend on the historical period that we are considering, however, Egypt was, after all, one of the first states. Egyptians were familiar with astronomy, math, architecture and art, when many people around the world were still living in rather primitive social congregations. China, on the other hand, indeed had a huge leverage in the region, but, historically, its influence was always limited to Asia. In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had. They lost many major battles to other civilizations including Arabs in 7 century, Mongols, Japan and of course the Opium Wars. Military potency, in my opinion, is an important factor that has to be present in the arsenal of any superpower.

They're probably better than the Egypt if you're to compare them militarily. Not sure if you can separate Mongolian and Chinese culture from each other though, Mongolian (actually Manchurian) ruled imperial China for generation and many of their culture and technology is quite mutually exclusive (if separate, an Opium War would rather be considered a Manchurian defeat rather than the Chinese).
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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8/27/2013 2:47:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 2:07:11 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

I think you are wrong about Egypt. I guess it does depend on the historical period that we are considering, however, Egypt was, after all, one of the first states. Egyptians were familiar with astronomy, math, architecture and art, when many people around the world were still living in rather primitive social congregations. China, on the other hand, indeed had a huge leverage in the region, but, historically, its influence was always limited to Asia. In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had. They lost many major battles to other civilizations including Arabs in 7 century, Mongols, Japan and of course the Opium Wars. Military potency, in my opinion, is an important factor that has to be present in the arsenal of any superpower.

They're probably better than the Egypt if you're to compare them militarily. Not sure if you can separate Mongolian and Chinese culture from each other though, Mongolian (actually Manchurian) ruled imperial China for generation and many of their culture and technology is quite mutually exclusive (if separate, an Opium War would rather be considered a Manchurian defeat rather than the Chinese).

Mongolia and Manchuria are distinct. The Mongolians ruled China during the Yuan dynasty, and the Manchus ruled China during the Qing dynasty.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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8/27/2013 3:27:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/27/2013 2:47:55 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 8/27/2013 2:07:11 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
At 7/1/2013 10:11:18 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

I wouldn't call the Egyptians a super power. How much relevance and impact did they really have outside of their own turf?

I am also surprised you didn't put Ming Dynasty up there. A fleet larger and more advanced than the entirety of Europe's, and being the leader in science, technology, production, etc... back then.

The making of a super power also depends on the relevant decline of others, in combination of military capabilities and innovation. Economy is a sub-factor of that.

I think you are wrong about Egypt. I guess it does depend on the historical period that we are considering, however, Egypt was, after all, one of the first states. Egyptians were familiar with astronomy, math, architecture and art, when many people around the world were still living in rather primitive social congregations. China, on the other hand, indeed had a huge leverage in the region, but, historically, its influence was always limited to Asia. In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had. They lost many major battles to other civilizations including Arabs in 7 century, Mongols, Japan and of course the Opium Wars. Military potency, in my opinion, is an important factor that has to be present in the arsenal of any superpower.

They're probably better than the Egypt if you're to compare them militarily. Not sure if you can separate Mongolian and Chinese culture from each other though, Mongolian (actually Manchurian) ruled imperial China for generation and many of their culture and technology is quite mutually exclusive (if separate, an Opium War would rather be considered a Manchurian defeat rather than the Chinese).

Mongolia and Manchuria are distinct. The Mongolians ruled China during the Yuan dynasty, and the Manchus ruled China during the Qing dynasty.

That's right. I just think that they were mutually responsible for the development of modern Chinese culture.

When I think of a Chinese culture, most of thing I can imagine would be consider a Manchurian (Qing) or semi-Mongolian (post-Yuan). With so many years lording over the Huns, I believe the Manchurian, the Mongolian, and the Hun would not be very different culturally. The modern Chinese would traced it heritage to the Qing, the ancient Chinese to Yuan, only the truly ancient one would be of pure Han.
Volkskorps
Posts: 61
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8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?
Etudiant
Posts: 25
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8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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8/30/2013 1:16:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

err the Vietnamese part is not exactly China though..
Etudiant
Posts: 25
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8/30/2013 1:26:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 1:16:03 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

err the Vietnamese part is not exactly China though..

True, there were multiple powers involved in the conflict, but my point was that China have never accomplished its objective. According to Collins, China's desire to accelerate nuclear weapons program was partially motivated by Mao's humiliation in Vietnam and his conviction that China had to restore its image as a powerful player in the international community. This of course is understandable to some extent. China much bigger than Vietnam, in terms of its size and population. In addition,China received assistance from other states, including the U.S. Despite all that, China was not able to drive Vietnamese out of Cambodia, a shocking outcome for the international community.
Etudiant
Posts: 25
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8/30/2013 1:34:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 1:26:22 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/30/2013 1:16:03 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

err the Vietnamese part is not exactly China though..

True, there were multiple powers involved in the conflict, but my point was that China have never accomplished its objective. According to Collins, China's desire to accelerate nuclear weapons program was partially motivated by Mao's humiliation in Vietnam and his conviction that China had to restore its image as a powerful player in the international community. This of course is understandable to some extent. China much bigger than Vietnam, in terms of its size and population. In addition,China received assistance from other states, including the U.S. Despite all that, China was not able to drive Vietnamese out of Cambodia, a shocking outcome for the international community.

I mean Deng Xiaoping
Cowboy0108
Posts: 420
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8/30/2013 11:00:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/29/2013 7:17:50 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
What are the superpowers throughout history, and why did they rise to prominence?

Like the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, French, English and Americans etc.

The super powers all had a few things
1. A merit based government system(Mongols, Tang, etc.)
2. An incredibly powerful military(Napolean)
3. Economic stability(you don't see the Holy Roman Empire being a super power because it was instable for most of its existence)
Volkskorps
Posts: 61
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9/1/2013 9:31:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

Since you would accept such a debate, I will not reading this blob of text because our discussion outside of the debate is irrelevant. You've essentially just accepted a debate and made an argument outside of the debate, so I will ignore it completely.

Just to remind you, the point you have to back up is "China never had a powerful military component." Because that is EXACTLY what you said. I will send you a challenge when I get set up in university.
Etudiant
Posts: 25
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9/2/2013 3:13:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 9/1/2013 9:31:55 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

Since you would accept such a debate, I will not reading this blob of text because our discussion outside of the debate is irrelevant. You've essentially just accepted a debate and made an argument outside of the debate, so I will ignore it completely.

Just to remind you, the point you have to back up is "China never had a powerful military component." Because that is EXACTLY what you said. I will send you a challenge when I get set up in university.

Yes, I don't deny that this was exactly what I said, but I already explained to you that this expression didn't properly convey my thoughts. I guess you could say it was a typo. If you truly want to debate me, you must defend your position against mine and I described my position precisely in my second response. Additionally, how can you debate me when you are refusing to read my responses?
DaylightComet
Posts: 1
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11/4/2013 8:22:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 8/30/2013 1:26:22 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/30/2013 1:16:03 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 8/30/2013 12:08:21 AM, Etudiant wrote:
At 8/29/2013 3:45:42 PM, Volkskorps wrote:
At 8/26/2013 11:57:04 PM, Etudiant wrote:
In addition, a superpower has to have a powerful military component, something that Chinese never had.

You said the Chinese never had a powerful military component. Want to debate this?

Sure, but I think I should make myself clear. Instead of saying that China had no military component, what I meant to say was that China was always lacking military potency as compared to many other empires of the time. In accordance with Confucianism, which had a profound impact on Chinese history and culture, the society was divided into 4 social classes including scholars, peasants, artisans and merchants. As you can see, soldiers were never a part of this hierarchy and being a soldier was not a privilege in the Chinese society. This fact (among many other), had a big influence on the Chinese military. Unlike many other empires like Greeks, Romans and Arabs where soldiers were glorified and respected in the society, Chinese soldiers never had that incentive to push them forward. Confucianism, as you might know, puts more emphasis on education and morality rather than the military culture. This also had a big impact on their military technology and strategies. For instance, Chinese invented powder, long before Europeans were able to get their hands on it, however, Chinese failed to develop this technology further. Europeans were the ones who actually adopted powder into their military tactics and took it to a whole another level. Because of the neglect that Chinese military have suffered, Chinese lost to different foreign enemies, including Arabs, Mongols, Japanese, English and Vietnamese (Vietnam didn't invade China, but Chinese couldn't accomplish their goal and suffered severe casualties) to name just a few. Of course, you can forget what happened to China after its encounter with the West, Opium Wars and humiliation after WWI

err the Vietnamese part is not exactly China though..

True, there were multiple powers involved in the conflict, but my point was that China have never accomplished its objective. According to Collins, China's desire to accelerate nuclear weapons program was partially motivated by Mao's humiliation in Vietnam and his conviction that China had to restore its image as a powerful player in the international community. This of course is understandable to some extent. China much bigger than Vietnam, in terms of its size and population. In addition,China received assistance from other states, including the U.S. Despite all that, China was not able to drive Vietnamese out of Cambodia, a shocking outcome for the international community.

You lack a clear understanding of the 3rd IndoChina war, The Chinese was indeed unable to drive the Vietnamese out of Cambodia, but there was not the only goal that the Chinese have in mind. The first was the cold war rivalry between China and USSR as who would be the true leader of the communist camp. Deng Xiaoping tested and ruined USSR's reputation as they have promised to defend Vietnam if it was invaded by China. The second being that the Chinese were not intending to colonize Vietnam for another 1000 years, this is the 21st century. All they wanted is to teach the Vietnamese a lesson, and they did it by capturing the Capital City and then issued a self-proclaimed ceasefire. Similarly to the Sino-Indian border war of 1962, where the Chinese won the war and then issued a ceasefire as soon as they captured the disputed areas.
This is a lists of Chinese military victories against foreigners,
Sino-Xiongnu Wars in the Han Dynasty, victory against the Huns
Baekje"Tang War in the Tang Dynasty, victory against the Koreans
The siege of Pyongyang in the Ming Dynasty,victory against he Japanese
Battle of Sacheon in the Ming Dynasty, victory against the Japanese
The ten campaigns in the Qing Dynasty, ten victories against countries like Russia, Vietnam and India
The Korean war, victory against the Americans

China is an unique civilization that engages mostly in civil wars, founder of the art of war, volume of 24 military strategies, Wu Qi's formations and inventor of the Chinese Crossbow and Gunpowder. Your claim is ridiculous and forced me to say something.