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The Confederate Flag is Not Racist

bettabreeder
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2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag
Slavery exists. It is black in the South, and white in the North. - Andrew Johnson
PatriotPerson
Posts: 1,062
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2/12/2014 7:02:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

I agree that the confederate flag is not racist. I disagree that they left the Union over states' rights and taxes.
"Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan" -JFK
"You all stink like poo poo" - Rich Davis
"That idea may just be crazy enough... TO GET US ALL KILLED!" -Squidward Tentacles
"My heart is always breaking for the ghosts that haunt this room." -Nate Ruess
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/13/2014 5:03:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes

Well then you're wrong. The Southern States all said they left the Union because they wanted to keep slaves.

Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

I still think it symbolizes racism, because it was under that flag that the free State of Pennsylvannia was invaded and its free black people rounded up and re-enslaved.
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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2/13/2014 10:11:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

I replied above.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?

The state flag, or the American flag, or a new flag, or one's favorite country artist. Besides, is a flag representing that specific subset necessary and worth the harms? Consider, for example, the fact that the North does not require a flag, the West does not require a flag, the Midwest does not require a flag, the East does not require a flag, Central America does not require a flag, North America does not require a flag, the Earth does not require a flag, Asia does not require a flag, DDO does not require a flag.

Not having a Confederate flag does not take away one's Southern culture, since it represents only the worst part of Southern culture. If it did, than Southern culture is much worse than I thought; I'd have thought that for the most part the South has for the most part stopped pining for the worst episodes of Southern history. There are lots of great parts about the South, but not all of them are great. Fighting to protect slavery was its darkest hour. I think we need to do what we can to not support such historical ideologies.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/13/2014 11:09:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?

The state flag, or the American flag, or a new flag, or one's favorite country artist. Besides, is a flag representing that specific subset necessary and worth the harms? Consider, for example, the fact that the North does not require a flag, the West does not require a flag, the Midwest does not require a flag, the East does not require a flag, Central America does not require a flag, North America does not require a flag, the Earth does not require a flag, Asia does not require a flag, DDO does not require a flag.

Not having a Confederate flag does not take away one's Southern culture, since it represents only the worst part of Southern culture. If it did, than Southern culture is much worse than I thought; I'd have thought that for the most part the South has for the most part stopped pining for the worst episodes of Southern history. There are lots of great parts about the South, but not all of them are great. Fighting to protect slavery was its darkest hour. I think we need to do what we can to not support such historical ideologies.

It's ridiculous that someone can celebrate Christmas and not be considered pagan among countless other things. Is it just that the history behind the confederate flag is more well known that people who wave it get called racist but the people who put up a Christmas tree aren't considered pagans? What about other symbols and the history behind them? How can anyone justify wearing a tie if they know the history behind it? Are kids who sag signifying they are criminals since the style roots from prison? Where is the line drawn? Does every symbol someone takes up require a history lesson behind it?
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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2/13/2014 12:00:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 11:09:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?

The state flag, or the American flag, or a new flag, or one's favorite country artist. Besides, is a flag representing that specific subset necessary and worth the harms? Consider, for example, the fact that the North does not require a flag, the West does not require a flag, the Midwest does not require a flag, the East does not require a flag, Central America does not require a flag, North America does not require a flag, the Earth does not require a flag, Asia does not require a flag, DDO does not require a flag.

Not having a Confederate flag does not take away one's Southern culture, since it represents only the worst part of Southern culture. If it did, than Southern culture is much worse than I thought; I'd have thought that for the most part the South has for the most part stopped pining for the worst episodes of Southern history. There are lots of great parts about the South, but not all of them are great. Fighting to protect slavery was its darkest hour. I think we need to do what we can to not support such historical ideologies.


It's ridiculous that someone can celebrate Christmas and not be considered pagan among countless other things. Is it just that the history behind the confederate flag is more well known that people who wave it get called racist but the people who put up a Christmas tree aren't considered pagans? What about other symbols and the history behind them? How can anyone justify wearing a tie if they know the history behind it? Are kids who sag signifying they are criminals since the style roots from prison? Where is the line drawn? Does every symbol someone takes up require a history lesson behind it?

I never said that the people who wave the confederate flag are racist. Likewise, I don't think that people who celebrate Christmas are pagans. However, the Christmas tree is a symbol of paganism, but that's really not very important.

Suppose instead, that the Christmas tree symbolized the time when lynching was allowed--the tree symbolizing the base from which black bodies were hanged. Suppose that it was a long tradition to keep the trees (and obviously not illegal). People might say "it's just a tradition" or "it's a symbol of the golden by-gone years;" however, it's real heritage is specifically cruel. In that circumstance knowing the history of the symbols is important in respecting others. In such a case the Christmas tree would be a symbol of ignorance and hatred centering around racism.
eNo
Posts: 80
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2/14/2014 1:28:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 11:09:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?

The state flag, or the American flag, or a new flag, or one's favorite country artist. Besides, is a flag representing that specific subset necessary and worth the harms? Consider, for example, the fact that the North does not require a flag, the West does not require a flag, the Midwest does not require a flag, the East does not require a flag, Central America does not require a flag, North America does not require a flag, the Earth does not require a flag, Asia does not require a flag, DDO does not require a flag.

Not having a Confederate flag does not take away one's Southern culture, since it represents only the worst part of Southern culture. If it did, than Southern culture is much worse than I thought; I'd have thought that for the most part the South has for the most part stopped pining for the worst episodes of Southern history. There are lots of great parts about the South, but not all of them are great. Fighting to protect slavery was its darkest hour. I think we need to do what we can to not support such historical ideologies.


It's ridiculous that someone can celebrate Christmas and not be considered pagan among countless other things. Is it just that the history behind the confederate flag is more well known that people who wave it get called racist but the people who put up a Christmas tree aren't considered pagans? What about other symbols and the history behind them? How can anyone justify wearing a tie if they know the history behind it? Are kids who sag signifying they are criminals since the style roots from prison? Where is the line drawn? Does every symbol someone takes up require a history lesson behind it?

You are dangerously close to a Slippery Slope argument there. At a minimum you are merely deflecting the issue to other logically unrelated topics, so lets return to the Flag... and table Christmas trees for a different day. And I"ll give you that history lesson, as the Flags history is clearly at the center of the issue.

There are technically 4 Confederate flags
http://images.sodahead.com...

The first flag adopted by the Confederacy was known as the "Stars and Bars" and was quickly changed as it too closely resembled the US flag, especially when hanging limp. The Second flag featured the Battle Flag in the corner of an all white flag... the main problem with that flag was it looked like a white flag of surrender when hanging limp. So late in the war they added a red stripe to the end to create the 3rd National flag of the Confederacy... and in my opinion is not an especially "beautiful" flag as claimed above.

What I think we are referring to here (and what comes to mind as what most people think of as the Confederate Flag) is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. This flag was a military battle flag used to designate and control regiments in the field, and was exclusively used in the Eastern Theater. Units in the Western Theater and Tran-Mississippi Theater of operations more commonly used the Bonnie Blue Flag or the Confederate National Flag. Of course, these Theaters were not as "important" to most Southerns as the Confederacy was relatively outmatched in these theaters. The Eastern Theater was viewed as primary as its location and Confederate successes paint a brighter picture.

References to the Confederacy are still present in our state flags to this day. In the early 2000"s when the State of Georgia was under intense criticism for their use of the Confederate Battle Flag, they changed their flag to an almost exact copy of the 1st Confederate National Flag http://olsworldflag.files.wordpress.com... and no one finds that very appalling.

So there is obviously something different about the Confederate Battle Flag that separates it in the minds of many Americans. And I think there are 3 primary reasons for this...

1. Simple ignorance, most people associate the Battle Flag as a general symbol of the South (for good and bad)
2. The widespread post-war use of the Battle Flag by the KKK, white-supremacist groups and the anti-civil rights movement.
3. The flag was a military flag used in combat against US troops

When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.
"Scholarly opinion, even well informed scholarly opinion, is not evidence."
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/14/2014 2:04:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 1:28:52 AM, eNo wrote:
At 2/13/2014 11:09:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:11:15 AM, kbub wrote:
The confederate flag is most certainly a symbol of racism, or is at least racially-insensitive. I am not saying that the person who waves it is necessarily racist, but only a product of a subculture that honors a symbol of hatred and ignorance.

The confederate flag was only flown in the South during the Civil War--at all other points in time only the American flag flew in the South. Therefore, the Confederate flag is hardly the symbol of general Southern pride, but only pride in one particular period of the South--namely, the secession and Civil War.

The North fought the South over their secession, and the Southern land owners seceded for one reason: To keep their "right" to own slaves preserved. Since the ideals of the CSA is only slavery, and the Confederate flag is a symbol of the ideals of the CSA (slavery), why the heck would one wave around a flag that represents the "right" to own slaves!?

What other flag that is uniquely southern and encompasses all of the south do you suggest southerners fly to represent their southern heritage?

The state flag, or the American flag, or a new flag, or one's favorite country artist. Besides, is a flag representing that specific subset necessary and worth the harms? Consider, for example, the fact that the North does not require a flag, the West does not require a flag, the Midwest does not require a flag, the East does not require a flag, Central America does not require a flag, North America does not require a flag, the Earth does not require a flag, Asia does not require a flag, DDO does not require a flag.

Not having a Confederate flag does not take away one's Southern culture, since it represents only the worst part of Southern culture. If it did, than Southern culture is much worse than I thought; I'd have thought that for the most part the South has for the most part stopped pining for the worst episodes of Southern history. There are lots of great parts about the South, but not all of them are great. Fighting to protect slavery was its darkest hour. I think we need to do what we can to not support such historical ideologies.


It's ridiculous that someone can celebrate Christmas and not be considered pagan among countless other things. Is it just that the history behind the confederate flag is more well known that people who wave it get called racist but the people who put up a Christmas tree aren't considered pagans? What about other symbols and the history behind them? How can anyone justify wearing a tie if they know the history behind it? Are kids who sag signifying they are criminals since the style roots from prison? Where is the line drawn? Does every symbol someone takes up require a history lesson behind it?

You are dangerously close to a Slippery Slope argument there. At a minimum you are merely deflecting the issue to other logically unrelated topics, so lets return to the Flag... and table Christmas trees for a different day. And I"ll give you that history lesson, as the Flags history is clearly at the center of the issue.

There are technically 4 Confederate flags
http://images.sodahead.com...

The first flag adopted by the Confederacy was known as the "Stars and Bars" and was quickly changed as it too closely resembled the US flag, especially when hanging limp. The Second flag featured the Battle Flag in the corner of an all white flag... the main problem with that flag was it looked like a white flag of surrender when hanging limp. So late in the war they added a red stripe to the end to create the 3rd National flag of the Confederacy... and in my opinion is not an especially "beautiful" flag as claimed above.

What I think we are referring to here (and what comes to mind as what most people think of as the Confederate Flag) is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. This flag was a military battle flag used to designate and control regiments in the field, and was exclusively used in the Eastern Theater. Units in the Western Theater and Tran-Mississippi Theater of operations more commonly used the Bonnie Blue Flag or the Confederate National Flag. Of course, these Theaters were not as "important" to most Southerns as the Confederacy was relatively outmatched in these theaters. The Eastern Theater was viewed as primary as its location and Confederate successes paint a brighter picture.

References to the Confederacy are still present in our state flags to this day. In the early 2000"s when the State of Georgia was under intense criticism for their use of the Confederate Battle Flag, they changed their flag to an almost exact copy of the 1st Confederate National Flag http://olsworldflag.files.wordpress.com... and no one finds that very appalling.

So there is obviously something different about the Confederate Battle Flag that separates it in the minds of many Americans. And I think there are 3 primary reasons for this...

1. Simple ignorance, most people associate the Battle Flag as a general symbol of the South (for good and bad)
2. The widespread post-war use of the Battle Flag by the KKK, white-supremacist groups and the anti-civil rights movement.
3. The flag was a military flag used in combat against US troops

When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

Is a history lesson required for every symbol people take up? Or is it just the confederate battle flag? If so why is that symbol more important then say the Christian cross, or a peace symbol or a heart? Just an honest question. Do we have to learn the history lesson behind every symbol we take up? And if not every symbol because we just use so many, then how do we find out which symbols we use that require us to get scholarly opinions on. It's not a slippery slope fallacy. Maybe a false analogy one but I don't think so. If you're saying the history of the flag needs to be taken into account please explain why it's history should be and not other arbitrary symbols such as the check mark on my shoe.
jnedwards11
Posts: 352
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2/14/2014 9:37:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

First, off. Whether or not the Confederate flag can be percieved as racsits is purely in the eyes of the beholder. If Americans of all people, can be so hypcritical as to call another country's flag rascists, then so be it. But people's opinion on the matter is just that, an OPINION, and nothing anyone else can say will turn that opinion into a fact. My confederate flag is not racist (I'm laughing as I write this because it's such an absurd idea) and never will be.

If you are insinuating my apprecaite of this flag is due to to ignorance then I would kindly point to our last discusion and the countless points of mine that you refused to even attempt to cover (which I will HAPPILY enumerate if you promise to adress them one by one, like I did for you EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!). Then perhaps you can show me how my views are based in myth.

I have asked you REPEATIDLY to show me how these views are mythical. PLEASE DO IT!!!! I am literally begging you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Lets have a discussion where you show me how each of my pro-confedertate views are based in myth or inconsistant from before during and after the civil war. Will you do that??????
jnedwards11
Posts: 352
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2/14/2014 10:06:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

Is a history lesson required for every symbol people take up? Or is it just the confederate battle flag? If so why is that symbol more important then say the Christian cross, or a peace symbol or a heart? Just an honest question. Do we have to learn the history lesson behind every symbol we take up? And if not every symbol because we just use so many, then how do we find out which symbols we use that require us to get scholarly opinions on. It's not a slippery slope fallacy. Maybe a false analogy one but I don't think so. If you're saying the history of the flag needs to be taken into account please explain why it's history should be and not other arbitrary symbols such as the check mark on my shoe.

I truly understand your reasoning here Wylted, but I think it is someone unfair. But rather than just attempt to disregard it as such, I will try to explain why I feel that way.

People insist upon a historical reference to the confederate flag because that is the only median in which it is ever really commonly applied. It's frequency today isn't anywhere near the mainstream uses that a christmas tree or a par of Nike's enjoys. So, the flags meaning, to most individuals, is in-fact based on it's history, rather than an immediate love of getting/giving presents or wearing comfortable running shoes.

That being said, if one asserts his basis for a negative opinion of this flag to be founded on a negative historical view of the late confederacy, then I suggest that person be well equipped to make that case in the face of objections!
rockwater
Posts: 273
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2/14/2014 5:35:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 2:04:58 AM, Wylted wrote:

Is a history lesson required for every symbol people take up? Or is it just the confederate battle flag? If so why is that symbol more important then say the Christian cross, or a peace symbol or a heart? Just an honest question. Do we have to learn the history lesson behind every symbol we take up? And if not every symbol because we just use so many, then how do we find out which symbols we use that require us to get scholarly opinions on. It's not a slippery slope fallacy. Maybe a false analogy one but I don't think so. If you're saying the history of the flag needs to be taken into account please explain why it's history should be and not other arbitrary symbols such as the check mark on my shoe.

It's inevitable that comparisons to the Swastika or the Communist hammer and sickle would come up, so here goes:

The Swastika comes from India and is a symbol of good fortune in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The Nazis took it up, thinking that the Aryans who invaded India a long time ago must have looked like Northern Europeans (they had a different understanding of scientific accuracy than we do, to say the least). The Nazi swastika can be differentiated from the traditional one because it tends to be slanted. That said, some people, especially Jews, are offended by any use of the Swastika outside of explicitly Hindu/Buddhist/Jain ones. It just has too much negative emotional baggage. Maybe that baggage will ease up in a few centuries, but it's pretty big right now.

I don't think displaying the swastika should be illegal - although if you live across the street from a synagogue and hang one in your window (and if you aren't Hindu, Jain, or Buddhist), you could probably be charged with threatening harm or harassment at the very least. Also, even if publicly displaying a swastika isn't illegal, your neighbors would also have the right to protest in front of your property for you to take it down, as long as they don't threaten you with harm, block you from entering and leaving your property peacefully, etc.

You can make a similar argument for the hammer and sickle. Nazism is pretty much universally discredited and anyone who uses a swastika to represent their political ideology is probably an Anti-Semite, racist, fascist, etc. The hammer and sickle, though, is used by both people who think Stalinism was a good thing and by people who think that Communist states have all been hijacked by dictatorships and that Communism could still be a good idea if it was applied in a way that respected human rights. I personally don't think Marxism works and I associate the hammer and sickle with the millions who were killed or starved under Communism in the USSR, China, Cambodia, etc. If I were Russian and the government (which is not very respectful of human rights at the moment anyway) wanted to put the hammer and sickle back on the flag, even if it was in support of liberating the oppressed and not out of any support for the evil systems of Lenin and Stalin, I would be against it. If I were a socialist, I would also oppose any use of the hammer and sickle to represent our cause.

So displaying the Confederate flag should not be illegal. I wouldn't do it myself, though. I do not think it should be on state or local government symbols, just like I do not think an Oblast in Russia should add the hammer and sickle back to a local flag that it had been removed from.
eNo
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2/14/2014 7:49:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 2:04:58 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/14/2014 1:28:52 AM, eNo wrote:
At 2/13/2014 11:09:23 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:50:09 AM, Wylted wrote:


Is a history lesson required for every symbol people take up? Or is it just the confederate battle flag? If so why is that symbol more important then say the Christian cross, or a peace symbol or a heart? Just an honest question. Do we have to learn the history lesson behind every symbol we take up? And if not every symbol because we just use so many, then how do we find out which symbols we use that require us to get scholarly opinions on. It's not a slippery slope fallacy. Maybe a false analogy one but I don't think so. If you're saying the history of the flag needs to be taken into account please explain why it's history should be and not other arbitrary symbols such as the check mark on my shoe.

To answer your question. No, a history lesson is not required for any of the other symbols you brought up. Because they are not historical, philosophical or moral equivalents... to the Confederate Flag or to each other. However, history is very important concerning the Confederate Flag" in fact its the whole point. Those who support the Flag do so because of its historical meaning and significance, granted their interpretation of that history. Likewise those who oppose the Flag do so because of its historical meaning and significance, granted their interpretation of that history. People do not display the Christian Cross because of its historical significance, they display it because of its religious significance... and that is Constitutionally protected. This is why your argument is a slippery slope... you are quantifying unrelated issues as equivalents and then claiming that they begot one another causing us to have to deal with these other symbols as we deal with the Confederate Flag. But we don"t have to at all.
"Scholarly opinion, even well informed scholarly opinion, is not evidence."
eNo
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2/14/2014 8:49:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 9:37:44 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

First, off. Whether or not the Confederate flag can be percieved as racsits is purely in the eyes of the beholder. If Americans of all people, can be so hypcritical as to call another country's flag rascists, then so be it. But people's opinion on the matter is just that, an OPINION, and nothing anyone else can say will turn that opinion into a fact. My confederate flag is not racist (I'm laughing as I write this because it's such an absurd idea) and never will be.

If you are insinuating my apprecaite of this flag is due to to ignorance then I would kindly point to our last discusion and the countless points of mine that you refused to even attempt to cover (which I will HAPPILY enumerate if you promise to adress them one by one, like I did for you EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!). Then perhaps you can show me how my views are based in myth.

I have asked you REPEATIDLY to show me how these views are mythical. PLEASE DO IT!!!! I am literally begging you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Lets have a discussion where you show me how each of my pro-confedertate views are based in myth or inconsistant from before during and after the civil war. Will you do that??????

I never said each of your pro-confederate views were based in myth. I did say that some of your opinions are rooted in "Lost Cause Mythology", and I'm getting skeptical that you do not understand the use of the term "mythology" in Historical Scholarship... that is not a claim of falsity of fact... that is a claim of lack of methodology, which I explained before. We are not talking about the "Myth of King Arthur" or any kind of fanciful made up stories or anything here, its not that kind of myth. Historical mythology is based on concrete historical events and people, however the interpretation of that history is confined within an Ideology. So it is literally the exact opposite of methodology.

As far as discussing your personal views further... thats fine, I have no problem with that... I didn't realize it was that important to you. What would you like to discuss??
"Scholarly opinion, even well informed scholarly opinion, is not evidence."
jnedwards11
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2/14/2014 9:28:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 8:49:02 PM, eNo wrote:
At 2/14/2014 9:37:44 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

First, off. Whether or not the Confederate flag can be percieved as racsits is purely in the eyes of the beholder. If Americans of all people, can be so hypcritical as to call another country's flag rascists, then so be it. But people's opinion on the matter is just that, an OPINION, and nothing anyone else can say will turn that opinion into a fact. My confederate flag is not racist (I'm laughing as I write this because it's such an absurd idea) and never will be.

If you are insinuating my apprecaite of this flag is due to to ignorance then I would kindly point to our last discusion and the countless points of mine that you refused to even attempt to cover (which I will HAPPILY enumerate if you promise to adress them one by one, like I did for you EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!). Then perhaps you can show me how my views are based in myth.

I have asked you REPEATIDLY to show me how these views are mythical. PLEASE DO IT!!!! I am literally begging you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Lets have a discussion where you show me how each of my pro-confedertate views are based in myth or inconsistant from before during and after the civil war. Will you do that??????

I never said each of your pro-confederate views were based in myth. I did say that some of your opinions are rooted in "Lost Cause Mythology", and I'm getting skeptical that you do not understand the use of the term "mythology" in Historical Scholarship... that is not a claim of falsity of fact... that is a claim of lack of methodology, which I explained before. We are not talking about the "Myth of King Arthur" or any kind of fanciful made up stories or anything here, its not that kind of myth. Historical mythology is based on concrete historical events and people, however the interpretation of that history is confined within an Ideology. So it is literally the exact opposite of methodology.

Lol, semantics much there eNo? Then why isn't it called "Lost Cause Methodology", since myth and methodology mean two COMPLETELY different things???? The term myth is not misunderstood. At best it's being misused (deliberately). If everything is factually correct there is absolutely nothing mythical about it. Of course southern views from before, during and after the war would be based in southern ideology, how is that not obvious to you? The confederate viewpoint is no more pro southern than the northern viewpoint is pro union. There was a war fought over the difference of opinion, it's clear each side would have their own views as to the way the thing played out. We have only facts to draw our own conclusions from. Once our conclusions are based in those facts, there is positively NOTHING mythical about them, whether they be pro union, or confederate!

As far as discussing your personal views further... thats fine, I have no problem with that... I didn't realize it was that important to you. What would you like to discuss??

I laid out my arguments point by point for you. I also specifically showed the similarities and differences in my arguments and the ones you call myth. I would like you you use historical evidence to help show me how each my views are based in myth or a lack of sound methodology that somehow differs from accepted northern views. I would like for you to do that with each of my points until you and I either agree or agree to disagree. I have given ALL of your responses this very same courtesy. I would also like you to specify which parts of my main argument you originally conceded to, and which of my conclusions you still disagree with. Since I've asked for this a bunch of times already, I'm not sure why you didn't think that was important to me?
eNo
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2/14/2014 10:05:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 9:28:36 PM, jnedwards11 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 8:49:02 PM, eNo wrote:
At 2/14/2014 9:37:44 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

First, off. Whether or not the Confederate flag can be percieved as racsits is purely in the eyes of the beholder. If Americans of all people, can be so hypcritical as to call another country's flag rascists, then so be it. But people's opinion on the matter is just that, an OPINION, and nothing anyone else can say will turn that opinion into a fact. My confederate flag is not racist (I'm laughing as I write this because it's such an absurd idea) and never will be.

If you are insinuating my apprecaite of this flag is due to to ignorance then I would kindly point to our last discusion and the countless points of mine that you refused to even attempt to cover (which I will HAPPILY enumerate if you promise to adress them one by one, like I did for you EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!). Then perhaps you can show me how my views are based in myth.

I have asked you REPEATIDLY to show me how these views are mythical. PLEASE DO IT!!!! I am literally begging you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Lets have a discussion where you show me how each of my pro-confedertate views are based in myth or inconsistant from before during and after the civil war. Will you do that??????

I never said each of your pro-confederate views were based in myth. I did say that some of your opinions are rooted in "Lost Cause Mythology", and I'm getting skeptical that you do not understand the use of the term "mythology" in Historical Scholarship... that is not a claim of falsity of fact... that is a claim of lack of methodology, which I explained before. We are not talking about the "Myth of King Arthur" or any kind of fanciful made up stories or anything here, its not that kind of myth. Historical mythology is based on concrete historical events and people, however the interpretation of that history is confined within an Ideology. So it is literally the exact opposite of methodology.

Lol, semantics much there eNo? Then why isn't it called "Lost Cause Methodology", since myth and methodology mean two COMPLETELY different things???? The term myth is not misunderstood. At best it's being misused (deliberately). If everything is factually correct there is absolutely nothing mythical about it. Of course southern views from before, during and after the war would be based in southern ideology, how is that not obvious to you? The confederate viewpoint is no more pro southern than the northern viewpoint is pro union. There was a war fought over the difference of opinion, it's clear each side would have their own views as to the way the thing played out. We have only facts to draw our own conclusions from. Once our conclusions are based in those facts, there is positively NOTHING mythical about them, whether they be pro union, or confederate!

As far as discussing your personal views further... thats fine, I have no problem with that... I didn't realize it was that important to you. What would you like to discuss??

I laid out my arguments point by point for you. I also specifically showed the similarities and differences in my arguments and the ones you call myth. I would like you you use historical evidence to help show me how each my views are based in myth or a lack of sound methodology that somehow differs from accepted northern views. I would like for you to do that with each of my points until you and I either agree or agree to disagree. I have given ALL of your responses this very same courtesy. I would also like you to specify which parts of my main argument you originally conceded to, and which of my conclusions you still disagree with. Since I've asked for this a bunch of times already, I'm not sure why you didn't think that was important to me?

Its not semantics, its called equivocation. An argument fallacy where the vagueness of a terms definition is used to mislead an argument. It is my intent to make sure we both understand the meaning of "Mythology" when used in historical scholarship to avoid any misunderstanding as to its implication, as it does not include the mainstream definition of Myth (like a dragon in a cave, or the story of George Washington and the cherry tree). Historical Scholar Bruce Lincoln defines it as "truthful depictions of historical events within an ideological framework". What this means is that I do not dismiss a Lost Cause argument because it is untrue. But instead look to unwrap this truth from its ideological framework.

I have to cut this short as my 5 month old brittany is about to loose a K9 tooth, so I'm going to go pull it so he does't swallow it.

I have left it to you to pick whatever topic you wish to discuss.
"Scholarly opinion, even well informed scholarly opinion, is not evidence."
PotBelliedGeek
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2/14/2014 10:06:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 5:03:56 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes

Well then you're wrong. The Southern States all said they left the Union because they wanted to keep slaves.

Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

I still think it symbolizes racism, because it was under that flag that the free State of Pennsylvannia was invaded and its free black people rounded up and re-enslaved.

This is the only intelligent thing I have ever seen you say.
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/14/2014 10:08:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

Let's see if you know your history. I assert that the south seceded because of slavery.

The south claimed that slavery was their right, and that the government was infringing on it.
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HUFFLEPUFF FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!
SeventhProfessor
Posts: 5,097
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2/14/2014 10:17:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
DDO does not require a flag.

Working on it now.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/14/2014 10:18:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:06:12 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/13/2014 5:03:56 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes

Well then you're wrong. The Southern States all said they left the Union because they wanted to keep slaves.

Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

I still think it symbolizes racism, because it was under that flag that the free State of Pennsylvannia was invaded and its free black people rounded up and re-enslaved.

This is the only intelligent thing I have ever seen you say.

Well then you obviously haven't been listening very hard.
SeventhProfessor
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2/14/2014 10:19:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:08:01 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

Let's see if you know your history. I assert that the south seceded because of slavery.

The south claimed that slavery was their right, and that the government was infringing on it.

As far as I know, that's mostly correct. I'm not a history expert, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the north wanted slavery illegal everywhere, while the south wanted it t be a state decision.
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
eNo
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2/14/2014 10:22:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:17:22 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
DDO does not require a flag.

Working on it now.

HA! Design contest coming????
"Scholarly opinion, even well informed scholarly opinion, is not evidence."
SeventhProfessor
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2/14/2014 10:25:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:22:07 PM, eNo wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:17:22 PM, SeventhProfessor wrote:
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
DDO does not require a flag.

Working on it now.

HA! Design contest coming????

Maybe...
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
SeventhProfessor
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2/14/2014 10:38:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:59:50 AM, kbub wrote:
DDO does not require a flag.

orly?
https://www.debate.org...
#UnbanTheMadman

#StandWithBossy

#BetOnThett

"bossy r u like 85 years old and have lost ur mind"
~mysteriouscrystals

"I've honestly never seen seventh post anything that wasn't completely idiotic in a trying-to-be-funny way."
~F-16

https://docs.google.com...
jnedwards11
Posts: 352
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2/15/2014 7:59:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:05:01 PM, eNo wrote:
At 2/14/2014 9:28:36 PM, jnedwards11 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 8:49:02 PM, eNo wrote:
At 2/14/2014 9:37:44 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
When looked in this context I think its obvious why many people find it offensive. But the real issue at hand is the romanticizing of the Confederacy in minds of many people. After the war the South was faced with complete and utter failure, total economic and social destruction, and a need to make sense of it all. They tried to pull some justification out of the rubble... thus emerged "The Lost Cause". They attempted to expunge slavery as a primary cause of the war (looking to tariffs and States Rights as primary causes), romanticized Southern cultural, and viewed its military as noble and chivalric. They cast the North as aggressors in defiance of the Constitution and as an industrial juggernaut, defeating the South with its war production and sheer numbers not the command and skill of its military. Furthermore most tend to ignore the Flags use by white-supremacist groups, Jim Crow society and anti-civil rights in the 1960"s. It was the use of the flag in these contexts that make the Confederate flag a far worse symbol today then it even was in 1865. But many ignore this context and view it only as a romanticized symbol of a "Lost Cause" South, which in itself is fallacious and my opinion is very shortsighted.

First, off. Whether or not the Confederate flag can be percieved as racsits is purely in the eyes of the beholder. If Americans of all people, can be so hypcritical as to call another country's flag rascists, then so be it. But people's opinion on the matter is just that, an OPINION, and nothing anyone else can say will turn that opinion into a fact. My confederate flag is not racist (I'm laughing as I write this because it's such an absurd idea) and never will be.

If you are insinuating my apprecaite of this flag is due to to ignorance then I would kindly point to our last discusion and the countless points of mine that you refused to even attempt to cover (which I will HAPPILY enumerate if you promise to adress them one by one, like I did for you EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!). Then perhaps you can show me how my views are based in myth.

I have asked you REPEATIDLY to show me how these views are mythical. PLEASE DO IT!!!! I am literally begging you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!! Lets have a discussion where you show me how each of my pro-confedertate views are based in myth or inconsistant from before during and after the civil war. Will you do that??????

I never said each of your pro-confederate views were based in myth. I did say that some of your opinions are rooted in "Lost Cause Mythology", and I'm getting skeptical that you do not understand the use of the term "mythology" in Historical Scholarship... that is not a claim of falsity of fact... that is a claim of lack of methodology, which I explained before. We are not talking about the "Myth of King Arthur" or any kind of fanciful made up stories or anything here, its not that kind of myth. Historical mythology is based on concrete historical events and people, however the interpretation of that history is confined within an Ideology. So it is literally the exact opposite of methodology.

Lol, semantics much there eNo? Then why isn't it called "Lost Cause Methodology", since myth and methodology mean two COMPLETELY different things???? The term myth is not misunderstood. At best it's being misused (deliberately). If everything is factually correct there is absolutely nothing mythical about it. Of course southern views from before, during and after the war would be based in southern ideology, how is that not obvious to you? The confederate viewpoint is no more pro southern than the northern viewpoint is pro union. There was a war fought over the difference of opinion, it's clear each side would have their own views as to the way the thing played out. We have only facts to draw our own conclusions from. Once our conclusions are based in those facts, there is positively NOTHING mythical about them, whether they be pro union, or confederate!

As far as discussing your personal views further... thats fine, I have no problem with that... I didn't realize it was that important to you. What would you like to discuss??

I laid out my arguments point by point for you. I also specifically showed the similarities and differences in my arguments and the ones you call myth. I would like you you use historical evidence to help show me how each my views are based in myth or a lack of sound methodology that somehow differs from accepted northern views. I would like for you to do that with each of my points until you and I either agree or agree to disagree. I have given ALL of your responses this very same courtesy. I would also like you to specify which parts of my main argument you originally conceded to, and which of my conclusions you still disagree with. Since I've asked for this a bunch of times already, I'm not sure why you didn't think that was important to me?

Its not semantics, its called equivocation. An argument fallacy where the vagueness of a terms definition is used to mislead an argument. It is my intent to make sure we both understand the meaning of "Mythology" when used in historical scholarship to avoid any misunderstanding as to its implication, as it does not include the mainstream definition of Myth (like a dragon in a cave, or the story of George Washington and the cherry tree). Historical Scholar Bruce Lincoln defines it as "truthful depictions of historical events within an ideological framework". What this means is that I do not dismiss a Lost Cause argument because it is untrue. But instead look to unwrap this truth from its ideological framework.

The term "myth" has no business being used to depict historical fact. If you called it what it was from the start (methodology) then you would have no need to redefine the word to fit a meaning that it was positively NEVER intended for. Why keep using that word if you admit it should be explained to be properly understood? Why not just use the right word straight from the get go? Why would the word "myth" ever have been selected to describe the confederate cause? If it doesn't mean "myth" as Webster has defined the word, then what other intent could there be but to mislead someone?

I have to cut this short as my 5 month old brittany is about to loose a K9 tooth, so I'm going to go pull it so he does't swallow it.

I have left it to you to pick whatever topic you wish to discuss.

I want you to please go back to our entire discussion in the previous thread and address (in full, no stone unturned) all of my responses that you never replied to. I would like you to show me specifically how my methodology and conclusions are not sound. I would also ask that you detail how my views are based anymore unfairly in a southern POV than yours are based in a northern POV.

Since you have accused me multiple times of "lost cause myth" without ever saying how or why, I think it's only fair that you back that view up with evidence. Sound good?
jnedwards11
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2/15/2014 8:10:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/14/2014 10:08:01 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

Let's see if you know your history. I assert that the south seceded because of slavery.

The south claimed that slavery was their right, and that the government was infringing on it.

Just for clarity's sake. The south didn't claim slavery was a right, the US Constitution did. And while they did claim the government was infringing on that right, SCOTUS affirmed this claim by ruling that slavery could not be constitutionally excluded from US territories.

So, those aren't so much claims, as they are established historical fact. While slavery was an undeniable sectional difference, it was the unconstitutional attempts to bring about its extinction which southerns considered a violation of states rights. That along with a number of other sectional differences of course.
PotBelliedGeek
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2/15/2014 9:28:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 8:10:20 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:08:01 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

Let's see if you know your history. I assert that the south seceded because of slavery.

The south claimed that slavery was their right, and that the government was infringing on it.

Just for clarity's sake. The south didn't claim slavery was a right, the US Constitution did. And while they did claim the government was infringing on that right, SCOTUS affirmed this claim by ruling that slavery could not be constitutionally excluded from US territories.

So, those aren't so much claims, as they are established historical fact. While slavery was an undeniable sectional difference, it was the unconstitutional attempts to bring about its extinction which southerns considered a violation of states rights. That along with a number of other sectional differences of course.

The Constitution did not make slavery a right to anyone, it merely acknowledged its existence.

Second, the north was more than happy to leave slavery alone in the south, with the exception of a few outspoken abolitionists. It was when southern businessmen bought congressmen and Supreme Court justices to make slavery legal Ina state where the people didn't want it, overruling the principle of popular sovereignty, did things explode.
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jnedwards11
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2/15/2014 10:33:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/15/2014 9:28:20 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/15/2014 8:10:20 AM, jnedwards11 wrote:
At 2/14/2014 10:08:01 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:24:30 PM, bettabreeder wrote:
This topic gets me fired up,
I am a strong beliver that is stand four the states that left the Union for States Rights and Taxes
Lets see what you got about this historic, yet beautiful flag

Let's see if you know your history. I assert that the south seceded because of slavery.

The south claimed that slavery was their right, and that the government was infringing on it.

Just for clarity's sake. The south didn't claim slavery was a right, the US Constitution did. And while they did claim the government was infringing on that right, SCOTUS affirmed this claim by ruling that slavery could not be constitutionally excluded from US territories.

So, those aren't so much claims, as they are established historical fact. While slavery was an undeniable sectional difference, it was the unconstitutional attempts to bring about its extinction which southerns considered a violation of states rights. That along with a number of other sectional differences of course.

The Constitution did not make slavery a right to anyone, it merely acknowledged its existence.

Well I'm not sure if you are making a philosophical argument on what a right is or is not. But slavery was absolutely sanctioned under our constitution and as such, it existed as an individual citizens right in any state that chose to leave it that way. It may not have been federally "protected" like the right to own a gun, but it was most certainly federally sanctioned. It took an amendment to our constitution to change this, I don't even see how this can be a point of disagreement???

Second, the north was more than happy to leave slavery alone in the south, with the exception of a few outspoken abolitionists. It was when southern businessmen bought congressmen and Supreme Court justices to make slavery legal Ina state where the people didn't want it, overruling the principle of popular sovereignty, did things explode.

Do you have any sort of historical proof that southern businessmen bought congressmen and SC justices? What state did Southern politicians attempt to force slavery on that didn't want it? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I followed this one, can you perhaps elaborate on this point? Thanks!