Total Posts:70|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Hitler was a Great Leader

victoriaronan
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 2:48:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Hmm, you're a libertarian who believes that a totalitarian dictator was a model leader. I genuinely don't wish to be unkind, but you seem to be a somewhat confused individual. At any rate, it's not very likely that even without the hate a leader whose entire program was based on imposing authoritarianism and regimentation, on the fuhrer principle, on militarism, on obtaining lebensraum, etc. could have created anything other than the catastrophe that was the Third Reich. Apropos of this there's an interesting episode ("Patterns of Force") of the old television series Star Trek that you might perhaps find edifying, here's a link, http://www.hulu.com...
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 2:53:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
For some reason the title of the TV series isn't appearing, it's Star Trek.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
samcloud03
Posts: 1
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 7:28:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think it is vital to define the term "good" Since Hitler may be an effective leader internally in boosting the economy in Germany. Also, he tackled the problem of inflation... He also had the ability to make the Germans unite and to lead them. However he was too aggressive externally, as he invaded countries nearby in the prewar period.
But in the aspect as a German citizen, Hitler was important in saving Germany from depression in 1929.
victoriaronan
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 9:51:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 2:48:07 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Hmm, you're a libertarian who believes that a totalitarian dictator was a model leader. I genuinely don't wish to be unkind, but you seem to be a somewhat confused individual. At any rate, it's not very likely that even without the hate a leader whose entire program was based on imposing authoritarianism and regimentation, on the fuhrer principle, on militarism, on obtaining lebensraum, etc. could have created anything other than the catastrophe that was the Third Reich. Apropos of this there's an interesting episode ("Patterns of Force") of the old television series Star Trek that you might perhaps find edifying, here's a link, http://www.hulu.com...

I am not a confused individual. I have read many books and done countless studies on Nazi Germany and Hitler. But rather than jumping to the same conclusion as the rest of the world, I have my own.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 5:00:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.

Starting a war that kills around 6 million Germans (not to count all the Jews and other undesirables murdered) is "saving Germany" to you?

I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,354
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 5:28:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
He could have been a great leader. But not a great person.
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac. Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.

Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/5/2014 7:27:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Yes, it seems that like the fictional historian John Gill (in the abovementioned Star Trek episode) you believe that it's possible to somehow separate the effectiveness and the evil of Hitler & the Nazis and to have the former without the latter. I'm sorry to inform you that this is a rather erroneous notion. A warlike nationalism, fearmongering, scapegoating, a superiority-oriented mentality and the concept of herrenmoral (an inhumane morality based on the idea that the putatively strong and superior among us should rule and that the rest of us should exist at their sufferance, i.e. as their subjects and virtual or actual slaves) were integral elements of Hitlerism and what actually drove the ruthless efficiency and agenda of Germany under its fuhrer. Yes, the motivation that powered the success story of Nazi Germany pulling itself up by its national bootstraps and transforming from an economically depressed country into a superpower derived from a dangerous and evil place, and any admiration for or attempt to emulate a Hitlerian paradigm will always have too great a potential to draw a society into that abyss. Hopefully your further study of history will one day lead you to this realization.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 2:57:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 7:27:20 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Yes, it seems that like the fictional historian John Gill (in the abovementioned Star Trek episode) you believe that it's possible to somehow separate the effectiveness and the evil of Hitler & the Nazis and to have the former without the latter. I'm sorry to inform you that this is a rather erroneous notion. A warlike nationalism, fearmongering, scapegoating, a superiority-oriented mentality and the concept of herrenmoral (an inhumane morality based on the idea that the putatively strong and superior among us should rule and that the rest of us should exist at their sufferance, i.e. as their subjects and virtual or actual slaves) were integral elements of Hitlerism and what actually drove the ruthless efficiency and agenda of Germany under its fuhrer. Yes, the motivation that powered the success story of Nazi Germany pulling itself up by its national bootstraps and transforming from an economically depressed country into a superpower derived from a dangerous and evil place, and any admiration for or attempt to emulate a Hitlerian paradigm will always have too great a potential to draw a society into that abyss. Hopefully your further study of history will one day lead you to this realization.

Btw, Vladimir Putin must have gone up in the estimation of you Hitler-was-a-great-leader folks, now that Hillary Clinton has stepped up to be the first American politico to tritely and hypocritically (well, any American politician, such as Mrs. Clinton, who supperted the imperialistic and mass-murderous invasion of Iraq is indeed an abject hypocrite for demonizing Putin at this stage) compare him to your beloved Fuhrer. But then he's a Russian dictator and I suppose that no genuine Hitler admirer could ever also be the fan of a Russian leader. Oh well.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
YYW
Posts: 36,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 5:18:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

You're 17, right? Ok. Because you're 17, I'm going to assume that the reason you posted this is not because you actually are resolutely convinced that Hitler was an awesome leader, and rather because no one has taught you enough about Hitler and the Third Reich to have an informed opinion.

First, let's address what I think is your thesis: "Hitler was a good leader... because he was doing what he thought was right for his country and his people."

Hitler was a failed student, whose personality is the consequent of his own delusions of grandeur with his repeated experiences of failure. Failure in art school. Failure in the Army. Failure in everything but politics. Hitler was the kind of person who had a vision, yes, but his vision for Germany was to destroy everything that he believed competed with his own glorification. He destroyed the German christian churches, he used manufactured crisis to manipulate a body of people who were already victims of prior political incompetence and he used the blood of innocents to buttress his power.

What Hitler's rise to power meant for Germany was a revitalization of German identity that had been trampled and disgraced since the first world war, but that came as he bathed Germany in innocent's blood. Power, to Hitler, was permission to gas human beings to death as they screamed for mercy, and incinerate their bodies or dump them like trash into mass graves. Leadership, to Hitler, was imprisoning and executing political opponents in the dark of night under the guise of state security. Moral authority, to Hitler, began and ended with blonde hair and blue eyes.

Hitler was audacious, and that is a fact -but audacity doth not a good leader make. His unchecked ambition led to more lives lost in the shortest period of time than at any point in history. And that, dear child, is not leadership. It is political vanity and psychopathic evil, no more or less.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 4:30:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

I respect your opinion and try not to jump to conclusions, but this is kinda sad.

Hitler was a great public speaker, manipulator, and debatably a great military commander, but he was a horrible leader.

My argument is simple. ANYTIME you kill millions of your own citizens, and have to rule by instilling fear into the people(killing those who oppose you), you are a horrible leader.

If you are arguing form an economical standpoint, Hitler did give the country a purpose and brought the economy up through war, however the economy was bound to be restored from a post WW1 war it would have just taken longer. Because of Hitlers actions he destroyed the German economy a second time, and sent half the county into communist oppression from the Soviet Union. If it wasn't for America allowing half the country to remain a free capitalistic society, Germany would still to this day be messed up economically.

Hitler was a horrible leader, probably one of the worst in History. Just because you 'believe your doing the right thing for your country,' doesn't make you a good leader. It would be naive and arrogant however to not admit that he was an extremely great manipulator/public speaker/politician.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 4:40:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.



Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)

Ya I have outed myself. His Focus on research and development was decades ahead of all other countries. The scientific community uses much of what they learned from Hitlers approach to research and development. When Hitler was defeated, the rest of the world was astonished at how far ahead Germany was than the rest of the world. His ability to rally people behind a cause is legendary and will never be duplicated. Had he not been such a power hungry idiot he would have ruled the world. He lead a defeated nation out of despair and gave the people hope. The fact that he fuked it up is his down fall. You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right? The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him. The world owes much of what it has learned about research and development to Hitler. Sorry if it upsets you, but the truth is a hard thing to swallow sometimes.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 5:59:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 4:40:21 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.



Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)

Ya I have outed myself. His Focus on research and development was decades ahead of all other countries. The scientific community uses much of what they learned from Hitlers approach to research and development. When Hitler was defeated, the rest of the world was astonished at how far ahead Germany was than the rest of the world. His ability to rally people behind a cause is legendary and will never be duplicated. Had he not been such a power hungry idiot he would have ruled the world. He lead a defeated nation out of despair and gave the people hope. The fact that he fuked it up is his down fall. You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right? The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him. The world owes much of what it has learned about research and development to Hitler. Sorry if it upsets you, but the truth is a hard thing to swallow sometimes.

So, 1) You're giving Hitler credit for the scientific and technological advancement of Germany, and arguing that this justifies viewing him as a "great leader". Well, a highly educated German culture that preexisted the Third Reich arguably had a good bit more to do with Germany being decades ahead of other countries than did Hitler's alleged visionary brilliance (his brilliance can at best be described as alleged because for a brilliant leader his decisions certainly loused up quite a lot; for instance, Germany's prospects of winning the war, early on they actually looked quite bright, but then with Hitler's catastrophically stupid decision to invade the Soviet Union he transformed those bright prospects into the inevitability of his and his country's downfall). The Nazi regime merely exploited the brain power available to it. This hardly supports the view of Hitler as a great leader. And even if Herr Hitler had been responsible for his country's technological advances, well, this would still be eclipsed by the enormity of the evil perpetrated by the Nazi state.

2) You also seem to think that being history's greatest cult leader, transforming an entire modern nation into a brainwashed cult, makes him a "great leader". We apparently have rather differing definitions of a "great leader". That is, I certainly don't consider someone with an authoritarian, crudely dictatorial approach (his approach was so crude that he simply called himself the fuhrer, "the leader"!) to leadership, who turns his country into a cult of personality, to be the paradigm of great leadership. Btw, it's also known that after rising to power be became a lazy bum who didn't rise from bed until noon and who spent most of the day lounging, recreating, and watching films, delegating the real work of running the government to his cronies. But apparently for you his cult-leader charisma passes for, or makes up for the absence of, authentic leadership qualities, and for his lack of a work ethic; and despite all of the evil that he and his followers perpetrated you're somehow still able to view his form of leadership as positive. Well, I'm sorry but it's quite arguable that mass-murderous cult leaders make the most horrific, not the greatest leaders.

Okay, now to answer your question: "You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right?" Yes, I do know this, but if one admires the leadership of a Hitler, or a Mussolini, or a Manson (Charlie, by the way, is in the Hitler fan club with you and the creator of the thread), or a David Koresh, etc., well, having chosen such an object of admiration, one's mentality can legitimately be wondered about; you do know this, right? You do realize that I'm not simply being small-minded?

The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him.

I never suggested that it does, I merely meant that perhaps you've exposed the fact that your thinking is not quite as Middle American, so to speak, as we've been given to believe. That perhaps you're a bit of a nut job, like yours truly, but with differing views. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you're a Hitler fan, I know that we don't exactly get along philosophically, but I always thought that you were smarter and more decent-minded than that. Oh well.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 5:59:10 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/6/2014 4:40:21 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.



Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)

Ya I have outed myself. His Focus on research and development was decades ahead of all other countries. The scientific community uses much of what they learned from Hitlers approach to research and development. When Hitler was defeated, the rest of the world was astonished at how far ahead Germany was than the rest of the world. His ability to rally people behind a cause is legendary and will never be duplicated. Had he not been such a power hungry idiot he would have ruled the world. He lead a defeated nation out of despair and gave the people hope. The fact that he fuked it up is his down fall. You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right? The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him. The world owes much of what it has learned about research and development to Hitler. Sorry if it upsets you, but the truth is a hard thing to swallow sometimes.

So, 1) You're giving Hitler credit for the scientific and technological advancement of Germany, and arguing that this justifies viewing him as a "great leader". Well, a highly educated German culture that preexisted the Third Reich arguably had a good bit more to do with Germany being decades ahead of other countries than did Hitler's alleged visionary brilliance (his brilliance can at best be described as alleged because for a brilliant leader his decisions certainly loused up quite a lot; for instance, Germany's prospects of winning the war, early on they actually looked quite bright, but then with Hitler's catastrophically stupid decision to invade the Soviet Union he transformed those bright prospects into the inevitability of his and his country's downfall). The Nazi regime merely exploited the brain power available to it. This hardly supports the view of Hitler as a great leader. And even if Herr Hitler had been responsible for his country's technological advances, well, this would still be eclipsed by the enormity of the evil perpetrated by the Nazi state.

2) You also seem to think that being history's greatest cult leader, transforming an entire modern nation into a brainwashed cult, makes him a "great leader". We apparently have rather differing definitions of a "great leader". That is, I certainly don't consider someone with an authoritarian, crudely dictatorial approach (his approach was so crude that he simply called himself the fuhrer, "the leader"!) to leadership, who turns his country into a cult of personality, to be the paradigm of great leadership. Btw, it's also known that after rising to power be became a lazy bum who didn't rise from bed until noon and who spent most of the day lounging, recreating, and watching films, delegating the real work of running the government to his cronies. But apparently for you his cult-leader charisma passes for, or makes up for the absence of, authentic leadership qualities, and for his lack of a work ethic; and despite all of the evil that he and his followers perpetrated you're somehow still able to view his form of leadership as positive. Well, I'm sorry but it's quite arguable that mass-murderous cult leaders make the most horrific, not the greatest leaders.

Okay, now to answer your question: "You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right?" Yes, I do know this, but if one admires the leadership of a Hitler, or a Mussolini, or a Manson (Charlie, by the way, is in the Hitler fan club with you and the creator of the thread), or a David Koresh, etc., well, having chosen such an object of admiration, one's mentality can legitimately be wondered about; you do know this, right? You do realize that I'm not simply being small-minded?


The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him.

I never suggested that it does, I merely meant that perhaps you've exposed the fact that your thinking is not quite as Middle American, so to speak, as we've been given to believe. That perhaps you're a bit of a nut job, like yours truly, but with differing views. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you're a Hitler fan, I know that we don't exactly get along philosophically, but I always thought that you were smarter and more decent-minded than that. Oh well.

Charles, when people follow willingly, they follow because they want to. The fact you don't like Hitlers leadership style or his vision of the future is irrelevant. Hitler made possible the huge advances in science by funding it and having the vision to put the right people in charge of it. I would never presume to think he did the research. And yes you did insinuate that I am like Hitler by saying I have outed my self. I really don't care that you don't like Hitler or that anyone else doesn't like Hitler or his visions for the future. At least he had a vision for the future, unlike the leadership around the world today. The great nanny world visionaries. And I guess I'll have to say again, as you or someone else will say I agree with Hitlers policies because I acknowledge he had policies that worked in some cases. Doesn't mean I agree with all of them. I admire Fidel Castro more than my own President. Talk about a man with the biggest balls on the planet. To rule a small country 90 miles off the coast of the most powerful country in the world and stand there and flip the proverbial bird for 50 years with impunity. That man has balls and hutzpa. Obama? licks balls maybe.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 7:08:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/6/2014 5:59:10 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/6/2014 4:40:21 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.



Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)

Ya I have outed myself. His Focus on research and development was decades ahead of all other countries. The scientific community uses much of what they learned from Hitlers approach to research and development. When Hitler was defeated, the rest of the world was astonished at how far ahead Germany was than the rest of the world. His ability to rally people behind a cause is legendary and will never be duplicated. Had he not been such a power hungry idiot he would have ruled the world. He lead a defeated nation out of despair and gave the people hope. The fact that he fuked it up is his down fall. You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right? The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him. The world owes much of what it has learned about research and development to Hitler. Sorry if it upsets you, but the truth is a hard thing to swallow sometimes.

So, 1) You're giving Hitler credit for the scientific and technological advancement of Germany, and arguing that this justifies viewing him as a "great leader". Well, a highly educated German culture that preexisted the Third Reich arguably had a good bit more to do with Germany being decades ahead of other countries than did Hitler's alleged visionary brilliance (his brilliance can at best be described as alleged because for a brilliant leader his decisions certainly loused up quite a lot; for instance, Germany's prospects of winning the war, early on they actually looked quite bright, but then with Hitler's catastrophically stupid decision to invade the Soviet Union he transformed those bright prospects into the inevitability of his and his country's downfall). The Nazi regime merely exploited the brain power available to it. This hardly supports the view of Hitler as a great leader. And even if Herr Hitler had been responsible for his country's technological advances, well, this would still be eclipsed by the enormity of the evil perpetrated by the Nazi state.

2) You also seem to think that being history's greatest cult leader, transforming an entire modern nation into a brainwashed cult, makes him a "great leader". We apparently have rather differing definitions of a "great leader". That is, I certainly don't consider someone with an authoritarian, crudely dictatorial approach (his approach was so crude that he simply called himself the fuhrer, "the leader"!) to leadership, who turns his country into a cult of personality, to be the paradigm of great leadership. Btw, it's also known that after rising to power be became a lazy bum who didn't rise from bed until noon and who spent most of the day lounging, recreating, and watching films, delegating the real work of running the government to his cronies. But apparently for you his cult-leader charisma passes for, or makes up for the absence of, authentic leadership qualities, and for his lack of a work ethic; and despite all of the evil that he and his followers perpetrated you're somehow still able to view his form of leadership as positive. Well, I'm sorry but it's quite arguable that mass-murderous cult leaders make the most horrific, not the greatest leaders.

Okay, now to answer your question: "You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right?" Yes, I do know this, but if one admires the leadership of a Hitler, or a Mussolini, or a Manson (Charlie, by the way, is in the Hitler fan club with you and the creator of the thread), or a David Koresh, etc., well, having chosen such an object of admiration, one's mentality can legitimately be wondered about; you do know this, right? You do realize that I'm not simply being small-minded?


The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him.

I never suggested that it does, I merely meant that perhaps you've exposed the fact that your thinking is not quite as Middle American, so to speak, as we've been given to believe. That perhaps you're a bit of a nut job, like yours truly, but with differing views. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you're a Hitler fan, I know that we don't exactly get along philosophically, but I always thought that you were smarter and more decent-minded than that. Oh well.

Charles, when people follow willingly, they follow because they want to. The fact you don't like Hitlers leadership style or his vision of the future is irrelevant. Hitler made possible the huge advances in science by funding it and having the vision to put the right people in charge of it. I would never presume to think he did the research. And yes you did insinuate that I am like Hitler by saying I have outed my self. I really don't care that you don't like Hitler or that anyone else doesn't like Hitler or his visions for the future. At least he had a vision for the future, unlike the leadership around the world today. The great nanny world visionaries. And I guess I'll have to say again, as you or someone else will say I agree with Hitlers policies because I acknowledge he had policies that worked in some cases. Doesn't mean I agree with all of them. I admire Fidel Castro more than my own President. Talk about a man with the biggest balls on the planet. To rule a small country 90 miles off the coast of the most powerful country in the world and stand there and flip the proverbial bird for 50 years with impunity. That man has balls and hutzpa. Obama? licks balls maybe.

Your so mired in ideology you are incapable of having a discussion outside of it. Everything on this earth is political to you, everything. I bet you could politicize taking a dump or a piss
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 8:02:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 7:08:35 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/6/2014 5:59:10 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/6/2014 4:40:21 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/5/2014 7:23:29 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/5/2014 5:52:10 PM, sadolite wrote:
Hitler was a Great Leader. Yes, for a short time. Then absolute power absolutely corrupted him and turned him in to a genocidal maniac.

Or more arguably he was always (as he made quite explicit in Mein Kampf, a book which I've in fact read, have you?) consumed with the will to power; and had a dangerous, unlovely, one might even quite fairly use the word evil agenda from early on in his political career.



Many of his ideas were way ahead of their time.

Hmm, like what, pray tell, artificially pumping up an economy and morale with military spending and invasions? Or perhaps the justifiability of murdering people because they were communists? Or the fuhrer principle? Or maybe the pseudoscientific rubbish that was at the core of Nazi doctrine? You know, eugenics and "racial hygiene" (involving practices such as the compulsory sterilization of alcoholics and mental patients, etc.) Or perhaps you view the occult beliefs that some historians suspect he may possibly have shared with that killer kook Himmler as somehow enlightened? Or then again, perhaps you think that he was something of a visionary merely because he built the first autobahns? Yes, I suppose that such projects, along with famously keeping the trains running on time (even if some of those trains were transporting human cargo to death camps) cancel out a host of crimes against humanity.

(Hmm, my dear friend sad, have you somewhat outed yourself here?)

Ya I have outed myself. His Focus on research and development was decades ahead of all other countries. The scientific community uses much of what they learned from Hitlers approach to research and development. When Hitler was defeated, the rest of the world was astonished at how far ahead Germany was than the rest of the world. His ability to rally people behind a cause is legendary and will never be duplicated. Had he not been such a power hungry idiot he would have ruled the world. He lead a defeated nation out of despair and gave the people hope. The fact that he fuked it up is his down fall. You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right? The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him. The world owes much of what it has learned about research and development to Hitler. Sorry if it upsets you, but the truth is a hard thing to swallow sometimes.

So, 1) You're giving Hitler credit for the scientific and technological advancement of Germany, and arguing that this justifies viewing him as a "great leader". Well, a highly educated German culture that preexisted the Third Reich arguably had a good bit more to do with Germany being decades ahead of other countries than did Hitler's alleged visionary brilliance (his brilliance can at best be described as alleged because for a brilliant leader his decisions certainly loused up quite a lot; for instance, Germany's prospects of winning the war, early on they actually looked quite bright, but then with Hitler's catastrophically stupid decision to invade the Soviet Union he transformed those bright prospects into the inevitability of his and his country's downfall). The Nazi regime merely exploited the brain power available to it. This hardly supports the view of Hitler as a great leader. And even if Herr Hitler had been responsible for his country's technological advances, well, this would still be eclipsed by the enormity of the evil perpetrated by the Nazi state.

2) You also seem to think that being history's greatest cult leader, transforming an entire modern nation into a brainwashed cult, makes him a "great leader". We apparently have rather differing definitions of a "great leader". That is, I certainly don't consider someone with an authoritarian, crudely dictatorial approach (his approach was so crude that he simply called himself the fuhrer, "the leader"!) to leadership, who turns his country into a cult of personality, to be the paradigm of great leadership. Btw, it's also known that after rising to power be became a lazy bum who didn't rise from bed until noon and who spent most of the day lounging, recreating, and watching films, delegating the real work of running the government to his cronies. But apparently for you his cult-leader charisma passes for, or makes up for the absence of, authentic leadership qualities, and for his lack of a work ethic; and despite all of the evil that he and his followers perpetrated you're somehow still able to view his form of leadership as positive. Well, I'm sorry but it's quite arguable that mass-murderous cult leaders make the most horrific, not the greatest leaders.

Okay, now to answer your question: "You do know you can admire qualities in people that other people hate right?" Yes, I do know this, but if one admires the leadership of a Hitler, or a Mussolini, or a Manson (Charlie, by the way, is in the Hitler fan club with you and the creator of the thread), or a David Koresh, etc., well, having chosen such an object of admiration, one's mentality can legitimately be wondered about; you do know this, right? You do realize that I'm not simply being small-minded?


The fact that I acknowledge positive qualities in Hitler does not make me Hitler or anything like him.

I never suggested that it does, I merely meant that perhaps you've exposed the fact that your thinking is not quite as Middle American, so to speak, as we've been given to believe. That perhaps you're a bit of a nut job, like yours truly, but with differing views. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you're a Hitler fan, I know that we don't exactly get along philosophically, but I always thought that you were smarter and more decent-minded than that. Oh well.

Charles, when people follow willingly, they follow because they want to. The fact you don't like Hitlers leadership style or his vision of the future is irrelevant. Hitler made possible the huge advances in science by funding it and having the vision to put the right people in charge of it. I would never presume to think he did the research. And yes you did insinuate that I am like Hitler by saying I have outed my self. I really don't care that you don't like Hitler or that anyone else doesn't like Hitler or his visions for the future. At least he had a vision for the future, unlike the leadership around the world today. The great nanny world visionaries. And I guess I'll have to say again, as you or someone else will say I agree with Hitlers policies because I acknowledge he had policies that worked in some cases. Doesn't mean I agree with all of them. I admire Fidel Castro more than my own President. Talk about a man with the biggest balls on the planet. To rule a small country 90 miles off the coast of the most powerful country in the world and stand there and flip the proverbial bird for 50 years with impunity. That man has balls and hutzpa. Obama? licks balls maybe.

Your so mired in ideology you are incapable of having a discussion outside of it. Everything on this earth is political to you, everything. I bet you could politicize taking a dump or a piss

Silly and crass rhetorical overkill.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 8:15:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
... The great nanny world visionaries...

Let's see, you deride the vision of a more caring and human well-being oriented form of society by characterizing it as a "nanny" state, and you seem staunchly inclined to view Adolf Hitler as a great leader (this seems to enable you to pride yourself on being a strong-minded, independent thinker!), this certainly does say quite a lot. Yes, I can visualize you back in the 30s in a brown shirt helping to round up and liquidate lefties like me. Well, under the right sociopolitical circumstances folks with your mindset can indeed become quite dangerous.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 8:27:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:15:15 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
... The great nanny world visionaries...

Let's see, you deride the vision of a more caring and human well-being oriented form of society by characterizing it as a "nanny" state, and you seem staunchly inclined to view Adolf Hitler as a great leader (this seems to enable you to pride yourself on being a strong-minded, independent thinker!), this certainly does say quite a lot. Yes, I can visualize you back in the 30s in a brown shirt helping to round up and liquidate lefties like me. Well, under the right sociopolitical circumstances folks with your mindset can indeed become quite dangerous.

Charles I am part capitalist part communist part fascist part socialist part dictator part everything and yes even a smidgen Nazi. All have their positive sides just like people. But give a single one all the power and you have tyranny and genocide. I view ideology as an absolute road block to all of humanity. What is the point of arguing ideology? The other guy is always wrong.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/6/2014 8:34:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:27:56 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:15:15 PM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/6/2014 7:05:55 PM, sadolite wrote:
... The great nanny world visionaries...

Let's see, you deride the vision of a more caring and human well-being oriented form of society by characterizing it as a "nanny" state, and you seem staunchly inclined to view Adolf Hitler as a great leader (this seems to enable you to pride yourself on being a strong-minded, independent thinker!), this certainly does say quite a lot. Yes, I can visualize you back in the 30s in a brown shirt helping to round up and liquidate lefties like me. Well, under the right sociopolitical circumstances folks with your mindset can indeed become quite dangerous.

Charles I am part capitalist part communist part fascist part socialist part dictator part everything and yes even a smidgen Nazi. All have their positive sides just like people. But give a single one all the power and you have tyranny and genocide. I view ideology as an absolute road block to all of humanity. What is the point of arguing ideology? The other guy is always wrong.

The best part of being an ideologue is never having to implement your views or lead a nation.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Pitbull15
Posts: 479
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2014 12:11:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
: I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Well, there's the problem with your reasoning.
zmikecuber and I debate the Modal Ontological Argument
http://www.debate.org...

"YOU ARE A TOTAL MORON!!! LOL!!!- invisibledeity

"I have shown incredible restraint in the face of unrelenting stupidity."-Izbo10

"Oh my God, WHO THE HELL CARES?!"-Peter Griffin

"Let me put this in Spanish for you: NO!!"-Jase Robertson
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2014 3:13:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:34:54 PM, sadolite wrote:

The best part of being an ideologue is never having to implement your views or lead a nation.

Ah, here you go again with the marginalizing charge that I'm a mere ideologue. Yes, when someone, such as myself, thinks in a systematic and focused fashion; when one's thinking is defined by certain consistent themes, principles, and values; this can let one in for the charge of being some kind of an ideologue. Of course the people who make this charge tend to either be ideologues who don't like one's views, or individuals whose thinking is anything but systematic and committed to core convictions and values who perhaps resent the clarity of the systematic thinker. I suspect that you, friend sadolite, are the latter. At any rate, and FYI, an actual ideologue is a dogmatically, not merely an axiologically consistent thinker. That is, cultivating a worldview endowed with a measure of consistency by its fundamental values doesn't have to land one in the epistemic closure (closed-minded mentality) of the ideologue. Rather, what places someone at risk of becoming an ideologue is a psychological profile chiefly characterized by the egoic need to be right. And yes, even someone who's never troubled himself to choose or develop a belief system per se can suffer from this emotional, cognitive trait and be an ideologue without an ideology. In other words, dear fellow, don't consider yourself to be above reproach.

Well, victoriaronan is only a lass of 17 whose psychological motives for esteeming ole Adolf are a desire for identity, individuality, and rebellion; that is, these motives provide her with a mitigating excuse for investing herself in the self-image of someone with a popularly disapproved-of viewpoint such as the unsavory opinion that Hitler was one of history's great leaders; but as a man at your stage of life you have no such excuse for expressing and digging your heels into such a notion. Therefore, your dogmatic adherence to, your persistent attempt to rationalize the rightness of, a highly dubious view here does indeed lead one to suspect the alternate explanation that there's at least a streak of the ideologue's stubbornness in your mental makeup. This would also account for your tendency to unfairly view me, one of the most undogmatic individuals at DDO, if I do say so myself, as an ideologue; i.e., you're merely engaged in projection. In short, you have your own issues, and should engage in a bit more introspection, and a good bit less (tellingly irritable) criticism of others.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,020
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/12/2014 11:19:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

I think he was one of the best Public Speakers the world has seen. I've studied him from several different perspectives throughout my college courses and respect his talent. His actions are a whole other discussion best saved for another day.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/13/2014 3:36:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For a time, Hitler was a good military leader. That's about it.

His policies ultimately led to the destruction of life, property and culture on a scale never before seen in human history.

Was he charismatic? Sure.
Was he a good military leader? Absolutely.
Was Germany better off after Hitler? No. No. And no.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2014 3:55:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A great leader is probably not the right way to put it. A better way to put it might be a political genius.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2014 3:58:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 2:48:07 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Hmm, you're a libertarian who believes that a totalitarian dictator was a model leader. I genuinely don't wish to be unkind, but you seem to be a somewhat confused individual. At any rate, it's not very likely that even without the hate a leader whose entire program was based on imposing authoritarianism and regimentation, on the fuhrer principle, on militarism, on obtaining lebensraum, etc. could have created anything other than the catastrophe that was the Third Reich. Apropos of this there's an interesting episode ("Patterns of Force") of the old television series Star Trek that you might perhaps find edifying, here's a link, http://www.hulu.com...

Charles, I don't think Hitler was a good leader, but he was authoritarian, and not totalitarian.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Kc1999
Posts: 1,037
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/14/2014 4:03:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/14/2014 3:58:38 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/5/2014 2:48:07 AM, charleslb wrote:
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

Hmm, you're a libertarian who believes that a totalitarian dictator was a model leader. I genuinely don't wish to be unkind, but you seem to be a somewhat confused individual. At any rate, it's not very likely that even without the hate a leader whose entire program was based on imposing authoritarianism and regimentation, on the fuhrer principle, on militarism, on obtaining lebensraum, etc. could have created anything other than the catastrophe that was the Third Reich. Apropos of this there's an interesting episode ("Patterns of Force") of the old television series Star Trek that you might perhaps find edifying, here's a link, http://www.hulu.com...

Charles, I don't think Hitler was a good leader, but he was authoritarian, and not totalitarian.

Authoritarian Leaders have no legitimacy in their role. Totalitarian leaders do.

Hitler had complete legitimacy.
#NoToMobocracy #BladeStroink
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 7:58:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/4/2014 1:12:38 PM, victoriaronan wrote:
In my humble opinion, I find Hitler to have been a great leader. He had his flaw of Antisemitism, but he was doing what he believed to be right for his country and people. He saved Germany.
I believe people always jump to, "Hitler was the most evil person ever" conclusion because they do not take the time to view the complexity of Hitler.
I get a lot of controversy for this opinion when I bring it up, but it is what I believe.
I do not believe in war, hatred, ect. ect. And I do not condone the killing of millions of innocents, but regardless of that, Hitler was one of the best leaders to walk this Earth.

A lot of people say the same thing about Genghis Khan, Joseph Stalin, and even George Bush. One thing you have to take into account is the fact that Hitler nationalized huge amounts of property and money from the Jews which he forcefully segregated, he annexed several smaller countries before invading Poland and starting the war, he set-up the German economy based on war-production, which can only have one outcome. The majority of Germans did get jobs - in weapons factories. Reagan did the same thing in America. After declaring the Soviet Union an "evil empire" he began the task of out-spending it until it went bankrupt, while at the same time touting "trickle-down economics" as the way to make America more wealthy. We ended-up with a military-industrial complex which is still draining the country today, and an economics policy which no longer works because the trickle-down effect requires that the rich people invest their money in creating jobs, which they've stopped doing. That's why the top 400 Americans today own the same amount of wealth as the bottom 150,000,000. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the short-term you are correct and Hitler did give a job to every family and put a car in every garage (the VW Beetle), but in the long run it takes a lot of money to maintain a large military, but the military doesn't bring money back in unless you use it. His whole plan was based on the concept of "lebensraum", which required that he invade Russia. You deserve a lot of credit for not being afraid to speak what you think. :)
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 8:04:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/5/2014 7:28:44 AM, samcloud03 wrote:
I think it is vital to define the term "good" Since Hitler may be an effective leader internally in boosting the economy in Germany. Also, he tackled the problem of inflation... He also had the ability to make the Germans unite and to lead them. However he was too aggressive externally, as he invaded countries nearby in the prewar period.
But in the aspect as a German citizen, Hitler was important in saving Germany from depression in 1929.

With respect, although you do have a point, it's actually not a strong one. The policies which Hitler used to revitalize Germany depended on him nationalizing private property and eventually going to war. What he did is kinda like going on a crime-spree. For a while the money might be good, but your long-term aspects are pretty dim.