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Was a historical Jesus real?

J311yPhi5h
Posts: 7
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4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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4/22/2014 4:38:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

There have been a lot of threads about this subject, and you might want to read some of those, as I doubt that too many people are going to want to argue it again. Most historians accept the historicity of Jesus. It's his divinity that many question, since that's a matter of personal acceptance.
WheezySquash8
Posts: 130
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4/27/2014 9:08:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

In my opinion, he's real. I respect those who believe differently though.
Pacifist Since 3/12/14
Wheezy
A341
Posts: 6
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5/4/2014 1:28:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Possibly, the only convincing argument for historicity is how fake the story seems. If he was real then he was probably a preacher who died sometime around 100 BC and gained a small cult following that eventually turned into the Gnostic faith and mainstream Christianity. I don't know the name or the teachings but it seems at least possible.
Truth_seeker
Posts: 1,811
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6/14/2014 3:09:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

There is proof of his existence and divinity.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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7/1/2014 12:35:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes, a historical Jesus existed who roughly matched the gospel accounts of him. The vast preponderance of evidence relating to Jesus would be inexplicable without there being a central figure behind it.

Scholars are in widespread dispute over most aspects of what Jesus was doing, though, so that may not satisfy OP's Christian friends.
Brad_Watson.Miami
Posts: 158
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7/2/2014 6:52:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/14/2014 3:09:31 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
There is proof of his existence and divinity.

Truth_seeker? If you aren't lying, then contemplate this...

Y'shua bar Yosef was born on April 17, 6 BC / 17.4.748 AUC; the Jewish Messiah was an Aries the Ram/Lamb. Jesus was on the Cross on April 7, 30 AD / 7.4.783 / 14 Nisan 3090 HC; again under Aries. IESVS is considered the "Lamb of GOD". Besides the combination of 7 & 4 in his birthdate & crucifixion date, note the following Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) examples using 'the key'(74) of A=1, B=2...Z=26...

GOD=7_4
Jewish=74=J10+E5+W23+I9+S19+H8
Messiah=74=M13+E5+S19+S19+I9+A1+H8
Y'shua=74=Y25+S19+H8+U21+A1
Joshua=74=J10+O15+S19+H8+U21+A1
IESVS=74=I9+E5+S19+V22+S19
Jesus=74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19
Cross=74=C3+R18+O15+S19+S19

Why is there is connect(74) between(74) - why do these converge(74) on 7_4 / 74? It's a BIG example of the GOD=7_4 algorithm/code; see http://GOD704.wikia.com... .

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The BIG proof of Jesus the Christ having ben just that 2,000 years ago is his returning today through reincarnation. See the "7 Seals" revealed as 'beyond Einstein theories' at http://7seals.blogspot.com... .
GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good(7__4) Friday(74) when Jesus(74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19) was nailed on(74) the Cross(74=C3+R18+O15+S19+S19).

GOD=7_4 algorithm/code produces Earth's 7 continents & 4 seasons, 4 lunar phases of 7 days (~7.4 days) each, Venus .7 AU & Mercury .4 AU, etc.
Brad_Watson.Miami
Posts: 158
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7/2/2014 9:14:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
J311yPhi5h,

Jesus son of Joseph was not only a historical figure, he was thee historical figure! Being skeptical to a degree is a good thing. But when one goes too far, it's wrong and harmful.

The question shouldn't be whether Y'shua was real, but whether was he the Christ?* And how does one prove this? Only the 2nd Coming of the Christ proves without a doubt that the same eternal soul was the same 2,000 years ago. Of course, many will not accept Christ II but he's not going away. He'll be here for the next 1,000 years. But where will everyone else's eternal souls be?

To see proof of the Christ's return, see http://7seals.blogspot.com... .

.
7/2/14 10:08 *"Can't wait until he comes back home." - CNN
GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good(7__4) Friday(74) when Jesus(74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19) was nailed on(74) the Cross(74=C3+R18+O15+S19+S19).

GOD=7_4 algorithm/code produces Earth's 7 continents & 4 seasons, 4 lunar phases of 7 days (~7.4 days) each, Venus .7 AU & Mercury .4 AU, etc.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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7/3/2014 2:50:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

Let's say that it's logical to say that Jesus existed, because you have reports of the man some twenty years after his crucifixion.

These reports also show that he was just an ordinary man, and not a god.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,132
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7/6/2014 9:19:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

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summerfiend
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9/7/2014 10:15:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The only way that I can offer assistance is to advise you to read the Bible -in its entirety. Study it closely. The Bible was written over thousands of years, and yet, it all comes together neatly and seamlessly. Let me explain.
If you look at the story of the Exodus, you will see that the Angel of Death instructed the people to slaughter a lamb without blemish, consume the meat, and smear the blood of the lamb on the door posts, and the lentil. Within those households that did not do these things, the Angle of Death would visit the first-born of that household. Fast forward to the New Testament. Jesus was called the Lamb of God. The smears of blood that in Exodus were to be placed on the door posts and lentil, form the sign of the Cross. Also in that story, the people were instructed to eat the blood of the lamb that had been slaughtered. At the Last Supper, Jesus gave us the Eucharist, or Communion, his way of instructing us to consume the lamb that had been slaughtered. The Exodus story is the foretelling of Jesus' role in our salvation, and our exodus from the snares of the devil, and Hell.
Throughout the book of Isiah, which was written thousands of years before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, countless predictions point straight to Jesus, son of Joseph, as being the only person in history who could fulfill the prophecies of the Messiah. Isaiah 66 even goes into details of Mary's virgin birth, which if you trace back labor and birth to Genesis 3:16, clarifies things a great deal. In looking at these passages from the Old Testament, and then at the Birth Narrative (Matthew 1:18-25), these passages alone should convince you of the identity of Jesus. Yes, he was a historical figure; but he was a historical figure with a set and specific mission. How do we know he was divine? Compare Genesis 1:26 to John 1:1. Genesis 1:26 reads, "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" If God was alone in creating the universe and man, who was He speaking to when He said "Let us create man in our image?" Notice, too, that in this passage there is a numbers agreement issue. Should He not have said "in My image?" rather than "our image?" To answer that, let us look at John 1:1-5, which reads, "1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Here we see who God was speaking to when He said, "Let us create man in our image and likeness." John tells us in Verse 2: "He was in the beginning with God." You also see that John refers to Jesus as the "Word". Jesus spoke the words of God, in fulfillment of the Old Testament. But he also says of Jesus, "In his was life and the Light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." Refer back to Genesis 1:3-4, which reads, "3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness." You see that there are countless references in the Old Testament that foretell the Messiah, and that Jesus, son of Joseph, fulfills those prophesies, and these are but a few.
In order for the Messianic Jesus to be real, the historical Jesus would necessarily be real. And while most people who refute the Bible say it is unreliable, I disagree based on this premise, if no other: The Bible is a collection of books and letters written over an expanse of thousands of years, and yet they all relate to each other, and all focus on one great event: the coming of the Messiah, and his arrival into the world. The Old Testament foretells the New Testament, and the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament. It is too perfectly written, by too many people who never collaborated, to have been written by men alone. Add to this that the central theme of the Bible is God's salvation, and the means of the human race to attain it, and anyone with an open mind is forced to conclude that the Bible could not possibly have been written without Divine intervention.
There is one more point that most people overlook in regards to Jesus' role in the history of the human race. In John 8:14, he says, "Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going." Jesus says here that he isn't testifying on his own behalf, but he could. Yet, in Scripture, he didn't. Not one book or letter of the Bible was written by Jesus. He let others testify on his behalf.
Material_Girl
Posts: 264
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9/7/2014 1:54:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think people should stop hating on Jesus - he may not have been the son of God, but he was a great socialist.
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suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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9/18/2014 12:03:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

His real name is probably Yesu, which is the name everybody else but the English-speaking people call him.

As for whether he's truly exist , well, I guest we can't say for certain. In my opinion, all evidences that pointed toward his existence are at most, doubtful for two reasons

1. Most of them are Christian source, and as Jesus, or Yesu of Yeshua is the centre of Christian teaching, it becomes impossible for a Christian to deny his existence (or else they won't become Christian at the first place). That's mean, for example (and only EXAMPLE), if Jesus is a fictional characters created by early devotee of Christianity, all of the Christian sources which related to Jesus will also become fictional and produce unreliable prove of existence.

2. There are some non-Christian sources that indicated the existence of Jesus, such as the Roman record (Tacitas) during the Reign of Nero Caesar or Jewish historian like Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews), neither of them provide the record of personal contact with Jesus as a person. Tacitas wasn't even live by the time that Jesus was still alive, while Josephus only claim to have heard the name of "Jesus, the brother of James who was name the Christ" but not to have met him in person which mean if he only hard it from someone who already heard it from a Christian, his claim will only be as good as the Christian source.

Is that means Jesus is already proven to be fictional? Probably not, lack of prove of doesn't logically mean someone wasn't exist. I only make this arguments based assumption that Christian sources wasn't true. It can be the other way around as for now there are no prove to indicate that the Christian source is false either.

Born a Buddhist but hold less and less respect for it as time pass...
Otokage
Posts: 2,352
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9/24/2014 6:01:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/22/2014 4:16:52 PM, J311yPhi5h wrote:
Yesterday, I forget how it happened but the topic of Jesus came up with my friends and I stated that I don't believe Jesus ever existed. My friends looked at me, confused and told me that was a stupid idea, that Jesus clearly existed and that it is common knowledge. I began to panic, I felt as though I didn't want Jesus to be real, it bothered me to an irrational degree and the fact that my friends were calling me ignorant for refusing to believe in a historical Jesus made it worse. Today I proposed the idea that Jesus was real but that he was a charismatic cult leader that was not exactly a good person because he lied to a group of people that he was the messiah, that essentially Jesus was a con man. This idea helped me cope but when I talked to my girlfriend (who is a Buddhist and therefore more non-biased than a Christian on this subject) about it she said that he was a good person and that I'm looking for a reason to dislike him. I don't understand why I'm looking for a reason to hate him. It doesn't make any sense, but I want answers. Maybe they wont be pleasant but I want to be informed, I want the truth.

Truth is, outside of the Bible, no, there's no Jesus. And if you choose to take the Bible as historically correct, please note that the Bible shows several historical and geographical mistakes when talking about things like Jesus' travels through Palestina or the time in which Jesus was born, so it does not seem like a reliable book about the life of Jesus.

In short no, it seems that Jesus did not exist, and that "most historians believe that Jesus existed" is just an appeal to authority. There's pretty much the same amount of evidence about Jesus than it is about Odysseus, but both are fictitious characters although they both were considered real characters at different times.
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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10/1/2014 2:36:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's generally accepted among historians that Jesus existed. Whether he existed as the Messiah or not is debatable, but there's no point in over-analysing to prove your point.
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