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Atheist-Independent
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11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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11/11/2014 7:57:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Knowing little about him, I do believe I know enough to answer this question. Considering he had his very own concentration camps and dictatorship, it would've probably been a good idea if Hitler had joined forces with Francisco.

Despite the significant help this would have been for Hitler, I do not believe this would have been enough to defeat the allied forces. Here are the reasons..

A.) Despite Hitler did have great air power, he didn't have enough resources to keep up with the major inventions and innovations Germany created.

B.) Even though Hitler had great military strategic ability, so did Stalin and the Soviet Union. Knowing he had turned his back on Stalin, he significantly depleted his chances of winning against the allied forces.

C.) Numbers don't lie! It's kind of hard to defeat your enemies in a war when they have you outnumbered over 4 to 1.

D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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11/11/2014 8:12:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Most of Europe would be speaking German.
Tsar of DDO
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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11/11/2014 8:16:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:12:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Most of Europe would be speaking German.

Well, that certainly would be true.
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 7:57:15 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Knowing little about him, I do believe I know enough to answer this question. Considering he had his very own concentration camps and dictatorship, it would've probably been a good idea if Hitler had joined forces with Francisco.

It might have been, but I doubt they would have lasted. Franco and Hitler had different values than Hitler did, and Hitler was insane. He was also addicted to meth (fun fact about his later years).

Despite the significant help this would have been for Hitler, I do not believe this would have been enough to defeat the allied forces. Here are the reasons..

I agree, generally. And I also think that he would have eventually lost to the Russians on the eastern front as well.

A.) Despite Hitler did have great air power, he didn't have enough resources to keep up with the major inventions and innovations Germany created.

Well, that might have depended on how far into Africa hitler got -but you're right that Germany was strapped for natural resources throughout the war. Raw materials like steel, especially, were both necessary and limited.

B.) Even though Hitler had great military strategic ability, so did Stalin and the Soviet Union. Knowing he had turned his back on Stalin, he significantly depleted his chances of winning against the allied forces.

I don't know that I'd agree that Hitler had great strategic ability, personally. I think that "some" German generals did, but I think that most of the victories that Hitler won had less to do with his own ability and more to do with the sheer audacity of what he did. And... much as I like France... taking France was no major military accomplishment.

C.) Numbers don't lie! It's kind of hard to defeat your enemies in a war when they have you outnumbered over 4 to 1.

Yes.

D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.
Tsar of DDO
Atheist-Independent
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11/11/2014 8:22:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 7:57:15 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Knowing little about him, I do believe I know enough to answer this question. Considering he had his very own concentration camps and dictatorship, it would've probably been a good idea if Hitler had joined forces with Francisco.

Despite the significant help this would have been for Hitler, I do not believe this would have been enough to defeat the allied forces. Here are the reasons..

A.) Despite Hitler did have great air power, he didn't have enough resources to keep up with the major inventions and innovations Germany created.

B.) Even though Hitler had great military strategic ability, so did Stalin and the Soviet Union. Knowing he had turned his back on Stalin, he significantly depleted his chances of winning against the allied forces.

C.) Numbers don't lie! It's kind of hard to defeat your enemies in a war when they have you outnumbered over 4 to 1.

D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

A) True, Hitler had a large air force. This doesn't mean that it was good though. Spain certainly could have helped provide more resources however.

B) How would Franco help here? By providing different military strategy?

C) True

D) Franco could certainly hall take Gibraltar from the British, however, therefor making the Mediterranean solely a German pond. This would greatly harm the Allied offensive.
Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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11/11/2014 8:23:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:16:37 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:12:55 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Most of Europe would be speaking German.

Well, that certainly would be true.

Just Germany, France, and Belgium...
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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11/11/2014 8:32:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/11/2014 7:57:15 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Knowing little about him, I do believe I know enough to answer this question. Considering he had his very own concentration camps and dictatorship, it would've probably been a good idea if Hitler had joined forces with Francisco.

It might have been, but I doubt they would have lasted. Franco and Hitler had different values than Hitler did, and Hitler was insane. He was also addicted to meth (fun fact about his later years).

Yeah, I doubt the relationship would've lasted either. As far as that fun fact goes.. I know right!

Despite the significant help this would have been for Hitler, I do not believe this would have been enough to defeat the allied forces. Here are the reasons..

I agree, generally. And I also think that he would have eventually lost to the Russians on the eastern front as well.

A.) Despite Hitler did have great air power, he didn't have enough resources to keep up with the major inventions and innovations Germany created.

Well, that might have depended on how far into Africa hitler got -but you're right that Germany was strapped for natural resources throughout the war. Raw materials like steel, especially, were both necessary and limited.

B.) Even though Hitler had great military strategic ability, so did Stalin and the Soviet Union. Knowing he had turned his back on Stalin, he significantly depleted his chances of winning against the allied forces.

I don't know that I'd agree that Hitler had great strategic ability, personally. I think that "some" German generals did, but I think that most of the victories that Hitler won had less to do with his own ability and more to do with the sheer audacity of what he did. And... much as I like France... taking France was no major military accomplishment.

You are right about Hitler.. It was mainly his generals who were making the military strategic decisions.. As a matter in fact, it was because of Hitler's arrogant decisions many of the significant mistakes were made by Germany in WW2.

C.) Numbers don't lie! It's kind of hard to defeat your enemies in a war when they have you outnumbered over 4 to 1.

Yes.

D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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11/11/2014 8:37:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:32:07 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/11/2014 7:57:15 PM, Haroush wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

Knowing little about him, I do believe I know enough to answer this question. Considering he had his very own concentration camps and dictatorship, it would've probably been a good idea if Hitler had joined forces with Francisco.

It might have been, but I doubt they would have lasted. Franco and Hitler had different values than Hitler did, and Hitler was insane. He was also addicted to meth (fun fact about his later years).

Yeah, I doubt the relationship would've lasted either. As far as that fun fact goes.. I know right!

Despite the significant help this would have been for Hitler, I do not believe this would have been enough to defeat the allied forces. Here are the reasons..

I agree, generally. And I also think that he would have eventually lost to the Russians on the eastern front as well.

A.) Despite Hitler did have great air power, he didn't have enough resources to keep up with the major inventions and innovations Germany created.

Well, that might have depended on how far into Africa hitler got -but you're right that Germany was strapped for natural resources throughout the war. Raw materials like steel, especially, were both necessary and limited.

B.) Even though Hitler had great military strategic ability, so did Stalin and the Soviet Union. Knowing he had turned his back on Stalin, he significantly depleted his chances of winning against the allied forces.

I don't know that I'd agree that Hitler had great strategic ability, personally. I think that "some" German generals did, but I think that most of the victories that Hitler won had less to do with his own ability and more to do with the sheer audacity of what he did. And... much as I like France... taking France was no major military accomplishment.

You are right about Hitler.. It was mainly his generals who were making the military strategic decisions.. As a matter in fact, it was because of Hitler's arrogant decisions many of the significant mistakes were made by Germany in WW2.

I should say the few mistakes... If I am not mistaken.

C.) Numbers don't lie! It's kind of hard to defeat your enemies in a war when they have you outnumbered over 4 to 1.

Yes.

D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.
chui
Posts: 507
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11/12/2014 7:21:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM, YYW wrote:


D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.

With GB out would the US have entered the western theatre?
Who would stop germany and italy taking the middle east oil?
Who would be able to stop the german super battle ships when the worlds largest fleet was captured?
How would the US win midway without breaking the japanese codes?.
Where would operation overlord start from?
With India occupied by japan how would the US get supplies to China?
Could china continue to fight japan if it had no US supplies?
Would the british empire forces continue to fight without GB?
Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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11/12/2014 10:22:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 7:21:18 PM, chui wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM, YYW wrote:


D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.

With GB out would the US have entered the western theatre?

Possibly if the Japanese still bombed Pearl Harbor. They certainly would be more hesitant to enter if both Britain and France had fallen to the Nazis. If they managed to secure an alliance with the Soviet Union (awkwardly enough) they would certainly have entered the war.

Who would stop germany and italy taking the middle east oil?

Saudi Arabia remained neutral for the entire of the war, so unless the Germans invaded they would not get that oil. However, British Abu Dhabi and Yemen were up for the taking unfortunately.

Who would be able to stop the german super battle ships when the worlds largest fleet was captured?

Germanys Navy was literally crap. It was Italy and Japan's which the US would have to worry about.

How would the US win midway without breaking the japanese codes?.

Umm... by breaking codes :P

Where would operation overlord start from?

No idea.

With India occupied by japan how would the US get supplies to China?

Through French Indochina perhaps. I don't think that was occupied yet.

Could china continue to fight japan if it had no US supplies?

I doubt that they would have consented to total annexation by Japan, yet it is likely that they would have surrendered at some point.

Would the british empire forces continue to fight without GB?

Nah
chui
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11/13/2014 1:44:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 10:22:45 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/12/2014 7:21:18 PM, chui wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:22:16 PM, YYW wrote:


D.) Despite the great possibility Francisco could have taken over Great Britain with the Help of Germany, this wouldn't have been enough to stop the Allied forces onslaught against the Axis forces.

I agree.

With GB out would the US have entered the western theatre?

Possibly if the Japanese still bombed Pearl Harbor. They certainly would be more hesitant to enter if both Britain and France had fallen to the Nazis. If they managed to secure an alliance with the Soviet Union (awkwardly enough) they would certainly have entered the war.

In the western theatre or the pacific only?.

Who would stop germany and italy taking the middle east oil?

Saudi Arabia remained neutral for the entire of the war, so unless the Germans invaded they would not get that oil. However, British Abu Dhabi and Yemen were up for the taking unfortunately.

So you think Hitler would respect Saudi Arabia's neutrality?.

Who would be able to stop the german super battle ships when the worlds largest fleet was captured?

Germanys Navy was literally crap. It was Italy and Japan's which the US would have to worry about.

The uboats where pretty effective and could have reeked havoc down the US east coast. The Bismark,Turpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneisnau were larger battleships than most other navies possessed. The total german navy was one third the size of GB's. With GB out the axis would have dominated the oceans.
How would the US win midway without breaking the japanese codes?.

Umm... by breaking codes :P
The Japanese naval codes where broken in Bletchley park in GB. Without knowing where to fly the US would most likely lose midway and the pacific theatre would be much more even a contest.

Where would operation overlord start from?

No idea.
So no second front, no allied onslaught.

With India occupied by japan how would the US get supplies to China?

Through French Indochina perhaps. I don't think that was occupied yet.

The half million elite japanese forces that spent the war in Burma fighting empire forces would be free to use anywhere in the pacific theatre. Cutting supplies to china would be a priority because half the japanese army was tied up in that fight.

Could china continue to fight japan if it had no US supplies?

I doubt that they would have consented to total annexation by Japan, yet it is likely that they would have surrendered at some point.

Would the british empire forces continue to fight without GB?

Nah
So you agree that Canada, South Africa,Australia, New Zealand, India and West Africa, to name a few, would all stop fighting. So where is the allied forces onslaught to stop Hitler coming from? Before 1944 the US army was virtually non-existent.
Subutai
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11/13/2014 9:49:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No, and for several reasons.

1. The Spanish had just fought a rather long and brutal civil war that ended less than a year before the start of WWII. Around 500,000 died as a result of the war. They weren't ready to be a part of a world war when they were still stamping out Republican resistance.

2. Franco was similar to Mussolini. Mussolini considered whether or not he should join Hitler, as well as Franco. Of course, Mussolini did and Franco didn't. I mean three countries versus the world aren't very good odds.

3. Even if Spain had not had a civil war and pledged full-heartedly to support Hitler, there role would probably be similar to Italy's. To my knowledge, Spain's army was not in top shape (especially if there hadn't been a war before), so I think that Spain would have only provided marginal, ineffective help.

Overall, Spain was no Germany, especially after the civil war.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Atheist-Independent
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11/13/2014 11:47:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 9:49:45 PM, Subutai wrote:
No, and for several reasons.

1. The Spanish had just fought a rather long and brutal civil war that ended less than a year before the start of WWII. Around 500,000 died as a result of the war. They weren't ready to be a part of a world war when they were still stamping out Republican resistance.

2. Franco was similar to Mussolini. Mussolini considered whether or not he should join Hitler, as well as Franco. Of course, Mussolini did and Franco didn't. I mean three countries versus the world aren't very good odds.

3. Even if Spain had not had a civil war and pledged full-heartedly to support Hitler, there role would probably be similar to Italy's. To my knowledge, Spain's army was not in top shape (especially if there hadn't been a war before), so I think that Spain would have only provided marginal, ineffective help.

Overall, Spain was no Germany, especially after the civil war.

On the contrary you could argue that the Civil War had made the Spanish army valuable, battle tested soldiers.
Unitomic
Posts: 591
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11/14/2014 11:08:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Spain at the time was not in a place to fight. They military was incredibly out of date (much of their tanks were provided by the Italians), and hadn't really fought a war with a modern nation. And they were fresh out of a civil war. They were woefully behind the main nations (even italy) beforehand, only more-so now. Their infrastructure and resources were simply too stretched already to contribute to the war effort as anything more then a new front for the Allies to attack. The Allies would have swept through Spain like a warm knife through butter. Any attempt to reinforce Spain would have just stretch Hitlers military further. I would even say they would attack Spain in lou of Africa, but that's just speculation. Furthermore, just out of civil war, any attack against Spain (or any substantial number of troops leaving to fight elsewhere) carried the risk of the prior defeated party to attempt to rise back up, only making matters worse. Spain might have been able to claim Gibraltar, but in the end, it would not have won them the war. Most of the British in North Africa was being reinforced by Indians.
Idealist
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11/14/2014 3:13:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, I don't think so. Franco would have turned-out to be more of a hindrance than Mussolini was. Hitler wanted him to remain neutral because it denied the allies the moral right to invade Spain, which certainly couldn't have defended itself.
Subutai
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11/14/2014 10:09:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 11:47:24 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/13/2014 9:49:45 PM, Subutai wrote:
No, and for several reasons.

1. The Spanish had just fought a rather long and brutal civil war that ended less than a year before the start of WWII. Around 500,000 died as a result of the war. They weren't ready to be a part of a world war when they were still stamping out Republican resistance.

2. Franco was similar to Mussolini. Mussolini considered whether or not he should join Hitler, as well as Franco. Of course, Mussolini did and Franco didn't. I mean three countries versus the world aren't very good odds.

3. Even if Spain had not had a civil war and pledged full-heartedly to support Hitler, there role would probably be similar to Italy's. To my knowledge, Spain's army was not in top shape (especially if there hadn't been a war before), so I think that Spain would have only provided marginal, ineffective help.

Overall, Spain was no Germany, especially after the civil war.

On the contrary you could argue that the Civil War had made the Spanish army valuable, battle tested soldiers.

I admitted that in my post. I feel that the loss of soldiers, continual disorder in the country right after the civil war, and the fact that the Spanish civil war was almost a proxy war wouldn't have made their experience make much of a difference.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
16kadams
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11/16/2014 8:45:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, it would have likely been another Italy, hindering the German war effort.

1) It would indeed cause another front, the Germans were already overextended on both fronts (the Germans had a line of fortifications from Norway to the border of Spain... They would have to fortify Spain's coasts, as well). True, Spanish troops may man these fortifications. However, they were under equipped and trained compared to German troops, and would request German assistance... another drain of resources which Hitler didn't have.

2) Spain alone probably couldn't have taken Gibraltar, similar as to how Italy couldn't beat Greece or the English in Africa... It would drain more German manpower to take it. Although taking Gibraltar would limit English access to the Mediterranean, they would have to take the Suez Canal to fully make it an Axis lake. And again, assuming Hitler still invades Russian in 1941, it would mean fewer troops in Russia as they would be committed to Gibraltar and Egypt. Again, extending Hitler's forces. Also remember he had a deal with the USSR if he gave them arms they would give him oil... So until he took the Middle Eastern oil fields, well, he would be strengthening the Russians... So yeah Spain would delay Barbarossa, reducing chance of success.

3) Franco would likely surrender, similar to Mussolini. The stress of the Invasion of the allies caused Mussolini's government to collapse from within (even though they were going to lose either way). The allies would likely invade Italy first--as it was the more important German ally. Then Franco may fear the same would happen to him, he may sign a treat with the allies in order to save himself. He might even support the allies--in a limited way, of course. Meaning, at best, the effect he would have in the later portion of the war would be negligible.

Overall, a Spanish intervention in WW2 would harm the Axis.
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Atheist-Independent
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11/16/2014 11:04:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 8:45:11 PM, 16kadams wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, it would have likely been another Italy, hindering the German war effort.

1) It would indeed cause another front, the Germans were already overextended on both fronts (the Germans had a line of fortifications from Norway to the border of Spain... They would have to fortify Spain's coasts, as well). True, Spanish troops may man these fortifications. However, they were under equipped and trained compared to German troops, and would request German assistance... another drain of resources which Hitler didn't have.

2) Spain alone probably couldn't have taken Gibraltar, similar as to how Italy couldn't beat Greece or the English in Africa... It would drain more German manpower to take it. Although taking Gibraltar would limit English access to the Mediterranean, they would have to take the Suez Canal to fully make it an Axis lake. And again, assuming Hitler still invades Russian in 1941, it would mean fewer troops in Russia as they would be committed to Gibraltar and Egypt. Again, extending Hitler's forces. Also remember he had a deal with the USSR if he gave them arms they would give him oil... So until he took the Middle Eastern oil fields, well, he would be strengthening the Russians... So yeah Spain would delay Barbarossa, reducing chance of success.

3) Franco would likely surrender, similar to Mussolini. The stress of the Invasion of the allies caused Mussolini's government to collapse from within (even though they were going to lose either way). The allies would likely invade Italy first--as it was the more important German ally. Then Franco may fear the same would happen to him, he may sign a treat with the allies in order to save himself. He might even support the allies--in a limited way, of course. Meaning, at best, the effect he would have in the later portion of the war would be negligible.

Overall, a Spanish intervention in WW2 would harm the Axis.

Valid points.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/16/2014 11:39:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think it would undermine the Nazi control Germany. After all, the Nazi rose to power by pretending to be socialists. They only dropped that facade after they took power and under the mask of the patriotism and nationalism that war typically creates. The nationalists within Spain were also staunch anti-communists. Now, of course Hitler never really wanted to ally with Russia, but this would have undermined his attempts with them (of course, had their treaties broken down sooner, maybe Hitler could have won, before Russia was able to build up their army, but that is hard to say).

The question becomes if Spain and Italy could have dealt with England on their own, so that Germany could focus entirely on Russia (or at least prepared for it). Spain's forces were largely decimated during the civil war, to only a few hundred thousand soldiers with almost no air or navel power of their own (most was provided by the Axis or Russia). Coupled with the constant rebellion by the republicans for the next decade and the hundreds of thousands of refuges that they chased into France, I think if they sent their forces too far out from home (like back to Africa or an invasion on England), they would open themselves to a counter-coup. That really ties their hands to how they can help. Perhaps they could help just with manufacturing and helping the war machine, but I don't think that would be enough to swing the war.
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Bolshy
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11/18/2014 10:36:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Look at how badly Italy did in the first months of the war. 200,000 Italian troops were defeated by the British 40,000 in Operation Compass and only German aid stopped Italy from losing Africa. Italy then suffered a humiliating defeat against Greece. Italy was years behind Britain and Germany in its military.

Spain was even more so, after a civil war, Spain couldn't really affect the outcome of WWII. Sure, Spain could have captured Gibraltar like Hitler had demanded but this alone would not have effected the outcome of the war. Spanish help in Africa would also probably not have made a difference. The battle of France was won by Germany anyway so the statement made by Anti-Atheist about Spain possibly helping in France is irrelevant.

Considering what kind of army Spain had in 1939, it could hardly do anything to hinder the allies besides capture Gibraltar.
benko12345678
Posts: 30
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11/20/2014 10:40:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?
100% no. Spain was weakened by the civil war (most of the population was on the republican side and opposed Franco's tyranny).
Even if Spain joined, Germany would still have been left with the USSR on the eastern front, the UK and later, the USA. Now, it is possible that the british retaliation at Dunkirk might have failed if Spain had joined the war on the side of the axis, which might have led to the defeat of the UK...
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/24/2014 3:27:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

I seriously doubt it, when you factor in the USSR and USA.
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Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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11/24/2014 6:49:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:27:25 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

I seriously doubt it, when you factor in the USSR and USA.

What if Mexico joined the Axis? :P
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,821
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11/24/2014 6:57:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, Spain was still recovering from the Civil War and at that time there were still Soviet-supporting partisans seeking to overthrow Spain. Besides, France was already defeated by Hitler with ease so that "Third Front" wouldn't really matter and in order for Spain to get to France they have to go through the Pyrenees. Not only that, but Spain's army wasn't something to behold lol
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Atheist-Independent
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11/24/2014 7:09:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 6:57:47 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, Spain was still recovering from the Civil War and at that time there were still Soviet-supporting partisans seeking to overthrow Spain. Besides, France was already defeated by Hitler with ease so that "Third Front" wouldn't really matter and in order for Spain to get to France they have to go through the Pyrenees. Not only that, but Spain's army wasn't something to behold lol

I suppose their primary support would be to get Gibraltar and help in the African theatre.
PetersSmith
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11/24/2014 7:11:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 7:09:43 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/24/2014 6:57:47 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, Spain was still recovering from the Civil War and at that time there were still Soviet-supporting partisans seeking to overthrow Spain. Besides, France was already defeated by Hitler with ease so that "Third Front" wouldn't really matter and in order for Spain to get to France they have to go through the Pyrenees. Not only that, but Spain's army wasn't something to behold lol

I suppose their primary support would be to get Gibraltar and help in the African theatre.

It still wouldn't do much, and they would probably encounter resistance from Morocco.
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Atheist-Independent
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11/24/2014 7:19:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 7:11:58 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/24/2014 7:09:43 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/24/2014 6:57:47 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, Spain was still recovering from the Civil War and at that time there were still Soviet-supporting partisans seeking to overthrow Spain. Besides, France was already defeated by Hitler with ease so that "Third Front" wouldn't really matter and in order for Spain to get to France they have to go through the Pyrenees. Not only that, but Spain's army wasn't something to behold lol

I suppose their primary support would be to get Gibraltar and help in the African theatre.

It still wouldn't do much, and they would probably encounter resistance from Morocco.

Unlikely because France practically did nothing in the African theatre. They fell too quickly.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,821
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11/24/2014 7:22:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 7:19:52 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/24/2014 7:11:58 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/24/2014 7:09:43 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 11/24/2014 6:57:47 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 11/11/2014 5:08:23 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
Would Hitler have won WWII had he had gotten Francisco Franco (Dictator of Spain) to join the Axis. It would have added a third front in the Battle of France. Also it would have helped Mussolini in the Battle of North Africa.

It is not to improbable a thought given that Franco had been supported by Hitler during the Spanish Civil War. What do you think?

No, Spain was still recovering from the Civil War and at that time there were still Soviet-supporting partisans seeking to overthrow Spain. Besides, France was already defeated by Hitler with ease so that "Third Front" wouldn't really matter and in order for Spain to get to France they have to go through the Pyrenees. Not only that, but Spain's army wasn't something to behold lol

I suppose their primary support would be to get Gibraltar and help in the African theatre.

It still wouldn't do much, and they would probably encounter resistance from Morocco.

Unlikely because France practically did nothing in the African theatre. They fell too quickly.

It's not France though, it's a Moroccan resistance movement. Besides, even if Spain joined the Axis they probably wouldn't be able to win in Africa. And even if they somehow did, the Soviets would probably still won the Axis. If you look at the end forces of the Soviets they still had a lot, and I mean a lot, of guys left that could easily take Italy; but by that time the US and Britain would have taken Italy anyway.
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