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On Mao's revolutionary China

benko12345678
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11/19/2014 12:50:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mao Zedong advanced the social and economic development of Chinese society.

Before 1949, for instance, the literacy rate in China was 20 percent, and life expectancy was a meager 35 years. At Mao's death, literacy had increased to more than 80 percent, and life expectancy had almost doubled.

As a result of these increases (and the equitable distribution of medical resources and food), and despite the massive death-toll of the Great Leap Forward, the total population of China increased 57% over the course of his rule to 700 million, from the constant 400 million mark during the span between the Opium War and the Chinese Civil War.

Under Mao's government, China ended its century of humiliation from Western and Japanese imperialism and regained its status as a major world power.

Mao industrialized China to a considerable extent and absolutely ensured China's sovereignty.

China's socialist revolution of 1949-76 resulted in a vast improvement in life for the Chinese people. Between 1949 and 1975, life expectancy in socialist China more than doubled, from about 32 to 65 years. By the early 1970s, infant mortality rates in Shanghai were lower than in New York City! All this reveals a profound reduction in the violence of everyday life. The extent of literacy swelled in the span of one generation-from about 15 percent in 1949 to some 80 to 90 percent in the mid-1970s.

Let's go a bit more deeply into the profound difference socialism made to most people. Before the revolution came to power in 1949, China had been dominated by foreign imperialist powers. By practically all available measures, the economy was near the bottom of the world development scale. It had little industry. Agriculture was brutal serfdom. China had the most ruinous inflation in modern world history. It had a vast criminal underworld of gangsters and secret societies, and almost 90 million opium addicts. For women, it was a living hell: foot binding, arranged marriages, and child brides were widespread social practices. Prostitution was rampant in the cities.

These kinds of social evils and the extreme polarization of wealth that existed before 1949 were eradicated by the revolution: through the establishment of proletarian state power and the creation of a just social and economic order that unleashed the masses of people and served their interests.

Only a revolution could, and did, uproot the feudal economic system in the countryside. The land reform and repudiation of peasant debt carried out under the leadership of the Communist Party in the late 1940s and early 1950s represented the most massive expropriation and redistribution of wealth from rich to poor in world history.

The 1950 Marriage Law of revolutionary China established marriage by mutual consent, right to divorce, and outlawed the sale of children and infanticide. A new women's movement, larger and more sweeping in vision than any in history, set out to break down the subordinating division of labor between men and women and to break down the walls of domestic life.

China's industrial economy under Mao grew impressively-at an average rate of 10 percent per year, even during the Cultural Revolution. China had transformed itself into a major industrial power in almost a quarter of a century-a rate of development comparable only to the greatest surges of growth in history. And it achieved this without relying on exploitation or foreign assistance, and in the face of a hostile international environment.

These were fantastic gains in such a short amount of time.
However, Mao's decision that things weren't happening fast enough where we begin to see things steadily decline for the Chinese peasants. The Great Leap Forward almost undid all of the gains in the countryside. There was "crash industrialization" a desire to increase agricultural output by more than was reasonably or realistically possible, and the backyard steel mills were disastrous for the people living in the country.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
benko12345678
Posts: 30
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11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/24/2014 9:34:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.

You ignore the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions of people and the leaders of North Korea killed millions too. You don't even deny this. Instead you provide information as to how the CIA tried to assassinate one leader and gave a list of names to another. And the purge in Indonesia was the result of a failed coup by the Communists, not by the CIA providing a list of names.

As to the Russian Revolution, perhaps it would have been better had the interventionists and the White Army defeated the Bolsheviks. Looking at the millions of people Lenin and Trotsky killed when they took power. Even the people who supported the Mensheviks were executed.

You should start off by explaining how the CIA caused Stalin to kill 10 million people in Ukraine during the 1930s.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/24/2014 10:01:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 9:34:11 AM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.

You ignore the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions of people and the leaders of North Korea killed millions too. You don't even deny this. Instead you provide information as to how the CIA tried to assassinate one leader and gave a list of names to another. And the purge in Indonesia was the result of a failed coup by the Communists, not by the CIA providing a list of names.

As to the Russian Revolution, perhaps it would have been better had the interventionists and the White Army defeated the Bolsheviks. Looking at the millions of people Lenin and Trotsky killed when they took power. Even the people who supported the Mensheviks were executed.

You should start off by explaining how the CIA caused Stalin to kill 10 million people in Ukraine during the 1930s.

No, I'm only saying that the CIA had a part in making SURE that communism "never worked". I'm not ignoring the facts about the people who died. I thought I addressed that in my argument.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/24/2014 12:29:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 10:01:11 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/24/2014 9:34:11 AM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.

You ignore the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions of people and the leaders of North Korea killed millions too. You don't even deny this. Instead you provide information as to how the CIA tried to assassinate one leader and gave a list of names to another. And the purge in Indonesia was the result of a failed coup by the Communists, not by the CIA providing a list of names.

As to the Russian Revolution, perhaps it would have been better had the interventionists and the White Army defeated the Bolsheviks. Looking at the millions of people Lenin and Trotsky killed when they took power. Even the people who supported the Mensheviks were executed.

You should start off by explaining how the CIA caused Stalin to kill 10 million people in Ukraine during the 1930s.

No, I'm only saying that the CIA had a part in making SURE that communism "never worked". I'm not ignoring the facts about the people who died. I thought I addressed that in my argument.

Communism never worked and never would have whether or not the CIA existed. The information you provided does not show how the CIA was the reason Communism never would have worked. The CIA formed in 1947 and the Russian Revolution and Civil War were over long before that time. Communism in the Soviet Union had lasted for years before the CIA was created. I explained that the CIA was not responsible for the purges in Indonesia. And you never really explained how the fact that the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro helped to ensure that Communism would never work.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/24/2014 12:30:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Perhaps the CIA did play a role in Communism not working, but that role is so small that it is irrelevant.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/24/2014 3:03:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 12:30:17 PM, Bolshy wrote:
Perhaps the CIA did play a role in Communism not working, but that role is so small that it is irrelevant.

I believe I specified that it wasn't just the CIA, but the entire U.S. and all of its allies.
Anyway, the statement is still funny.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

This contains a lot of CIA "anti-communist" activities:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Here is some more info on America's extensive attempts to prevent the spread of communism:
http://www.american-buddha.com...
http://millercenter.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Cuba, Angola, the entire Middle East, Albania, Chile, China, Russia, Italy, Germany, and Vietnam, and Yugoslavia. All victims of extensive attempts, conducted by the USA, to hinder or eradicate communist movements.

Don't even get me started on the vast number of countries the U.S. "intervened" in in the name of "containment". Communism was not only the devil, it was the scapegoat.
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/24/2014 3:09:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 12:29:36 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:01:11 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/24/2014 9:34:11 AM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.

You ignore the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions of people and the leaders of North Korea killed millions too. You don't even deny this. Instead you provide information as to how the CIA tried to assassinate one leader and gave a list of names to another. And the purge in Indonesia was the result of a failed coup by the Communists, not by the CIA providing a list of names.

As to the Russian Revolution, perhaps it would have been better had the interventionists and the White Army defeated the Bolsheviks. Looking at the millions of people Lenin and Trotsky killed when they took power. Even the people who supported the Mensheviks were executed.



No, I'm only saying that the CIA had a part in making SURE that communism "never worked". I'm not ignoring the facts about the people who died. I thought I addressed that in my argument.

Communism never worked and never would have whether or not the CIA existed.

1. Half- unsupported statement. You cannot know that communism would have "worked" or not without the CIA existing, so we're not even going to trifle with that. Of course "communism never worked". It was never around in the first place, and part of the reason was intervention by anti-communists. Intervention creates reactionary movements that prevent communism from "working". It's simple to understand.

2. Fidel Castro was a communist. The CIA tried to kill
You can call me Mark if you like.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/24/2014 3:10:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:09:26 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/24/2014 12:29:36 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:01:11 AM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/24/2014 9:34:11 AM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 5:11:50 PM, debate_power wrote:
At 11/20/2014 6:53:10 PM, Bolshy wrote:
At 11/20/2014 10:34:56 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.
The great leap forwards killed about two million people. It was a disaster, but it was not intentional. North Korea has done absolutely nothing, you just made a baseless assertion.
When it comes to Stalin's USSR, if you're referring to the gulags, around 100 000 people died and it was due to natural causes. I'm not a stalinist, but the claims made against him are ludicrous.

Perhaps Communists claim that these numbers are true, that none of these Communists committed crimes.

Stalin was responsible for the deaths of some 20-60 million people in the USSR. This includes some 10 million Ukrainians who he deliberately starved (the source I will proved only claims 7 million but this alone is more than enough to prove Stalin's crimes against humanity). http://www.historyplace.com...

40 million people (http://www.dailymail.co.uk...)

1.5 million people died in the Gulag (http://www.nps.gov...)
http://press.princeton.edu...

Millions of people died under Stalin due to starvation, deportation, shootings, etc. Women were raped by the NKVD, there was a time when Stalin just started killing people at random. Stalin deported people from the Baltic States so that Russians could move into their houses. While people in the USSR were starving, the Stalin was deporting grain to Nazi Germany.

I could spend another hour listing Stalin's crimes but I don't have the time to do so. I recommend you watch the documentary "The Soviet Story" that talks about Stalin's crimes and why he committed them.

North Korea was also responsible for the deaths of millions. Even today, there are Concentration Camps in North Korea similar to those that were in Nazi Germany. I'm sure there are hundreds of sources that I could give to back this up, however you would most likely dismiss this as Capitalist propaganda. You can type "North Korea latest news" and find sources that will back this up. You can listen to what people who have escaped North Korea have said about the government they were escaping from.

Well as for the Great Leap Forward, Wikipedia puts the number of dead at 18-45 million people. A little more than 2 million people. If you are going to claim that Wikipedia is unreliable then I can provide a few more sources to back up my claims.

http://monthlyreview.org...
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.nytimes.com...
http://www.theguardian.com...

The only Communist governments that I know of committed many crimes against humanity. Today, thankfully, there are only a few small countries that are Communist (China is more Capitalist than Communist). The USSR dissolved and Communism in eastern Europe collapsed. Communism doesn't work and due to its collapse, we live in a world that is much more free.

Communism "didn't work" mostly thanks to the CIA and America in general. What you don't realize is that the second WWII was over, America was all over Europe telling lies and propaganda on "Radio Free Europe" and also through its influential occupation of Germany. The "information" on Radio Free Europe was so ridiculously inaccurate that transcripts of the program were blocked in the U.S. while it was in its greatest operational period.

In Indonesia, the CIA supplied to the military dictator Suharto names of suspected Communists that resulted in the deaths of half a million people in "anti-communist" purges conducted by Suharto's government.

In Angola, the CIA intervened.

In Latin America, an extensive campaign against communists was attempted. Che Guevara was tracked down by the CIA agent Felix Rodriguez and killed in an execution by soldiers of the Bolivian U.S.- backed Batista dictatorship.

The CIA attempted to assassinate the Cuban president Fidel Castro several hundred times. It also attempted an invasion of Cuba.

Immediately after the Russian Revolution, Western countries intervened heavily to decrease the Bolsheviks' power, as in the case of the "Polar Bear Campaign", also known as the "North Russia Campaign", that was intended to prevent the seizure of arms stockpiles by the Bolshevik troops moving in. The anarchist Kropotkin, who supported the Russian Revolution, predicted that intervention by Western nations would lead to an increase of dictatorial protective measures by the Soviet government and a future conflict with the Western world. This turned out to be the case.

It is also foolish to claim that "communism doesn't work" when you have no evidence to substantiate that claim. Communism has NEVER FULLY EXISTED in ANY COUNTRY on Earth- governments that were ostensibly trying to implement a communist system were either TRANSITIONAL or DEGENERATE. The Soviet Union remained a transitional state for the duration of its existence- never fully capitalist and never fully socialist.

You ignore the fact that Mao and Stalin killed tens of millions of people and the leaders of North Korea killed millions too. You don't even deny this. Instead you provide information as to how the CIA tried to assassinate one leader and gave a list of names to another. And the purge in Indonesia was the result of a failed coup by the Communists, not by the CIA providing a list of names.

As to the Russian Revolution, perhaps it would have been better had the interventionists and the White Army defeated the Bolsheviks. Looking at the millions of people Lenin and Trotsky killed when they took power. Even the people who supported the Mensheviks were executed.



No, I'm only saying that the CIA had a part in making SURE that communism "never worked". I'm not ignoring the facts about the people who died. I thought I addressed that in my argument.

Communism never worked and never would have whether or not the CIA existed.

The CIA made six hundred thirty-eight attempts on Fidel's life. He was a communist. The CIA also attempted to oust his government. That's how they intended to impede communism.
You can call me Mark if you like.
Bolshy
Posts: 29
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11/24/2014 4:45:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Look I'm done arguing here, neither of us will change what we think and this arguing could go on for another year. This thread is about Mao's Revolutionary China which Benko tried to portray as some regime that achieved something good and did nothing bad., however I have shown how it is a regime that achieved something by trampling on tens of millions of bodies. I'll leave it at that.
debate_power
Posts: 726
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11/28/2014 11:05:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:45:57 PM, Bolshy wrote:
Look I'm done arguing here, neither of us will change what we think and this arguing could go on for another year. This thread is about Mao's Revolutionary China which Benko tried to portray as some regime that achieved something good and did nothing bad., however I have shown how it is a regime that achieved something by trampling on tens of millions of bodies. I'll leave it at that.

Well, alright. That sounds good to me!
You can call me Mark if you like.
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/7/2014 12:57:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/20/2014 9:46:55 AM, Bolshy wrote:
And you missed out on the part where Mao killed tens of millions of people. His Great Leap Forward resulted in some 20-40 million people being killed. Sounds kind of like Stalin I the 1930's where he murdered 10 million Ukrainians in the 1930's. Maoist China, Stalinist Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and North Korea are all similar in the types of crimes the regimes committed against humanity. None of these regimes had any respect for human life and the lives of individuals. The Great Leap Forward was a disaster.

Communists throughout history were criminals who did not believe the lives of humans held any values.

also kind of like Stalin as in both of them have left their economy in a better state after their passing. Doesn't mean that their policy worked though, economic is almost exclusively positive if you are not wasted in on war or in a state of short-term crisis. Real question is how much they could make out of these developments in comparison with other player and on that instance, China was never be able to match the capitalist nation well until they adopted capitalism themselves.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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12/7/2014 4:03:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:45:57 PM, Bolshy wrote:
Look I'm done arguing here, neither of us will change what we think and this arguing could go on for another year. This thread is about Mao's Revolutionary China which Benko tried to portray as some regime that achieved something good and did nothing bad., however I have shown how it is a regime that achieved something by trampling on tens of millions of bodies. I'll leave it at that.

When you look at the Great Leap Forward (which was when the communists under Mao sustained the most civilian casualties), you don't get the sense that the communists in power trampled over peasant rights...rather the peasants believed in Mao to such an extent that they ignored economic hardship when it befell them. Economic hardship in an agrarian society = mass starvation.

This isn't anywhere close to what Stalin did via purges...it was much more the utter economic incompetence of Mao that led to the high death toll in China. Mao didn't even know of it until it was too late...that's how oblivious he was to how economics works.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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12/7/2014 4:11:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Keep in mind that Mao took responsibility for his failures and resigned as head of state shortly after the Great Leap Forward, whereas Stalin utilized purges to stay in power. It's really night and day...you can't compare the two and say that both were similarly brutal. In Mao's case, he was just totally and absolutely incompetent at managing an economy.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?