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Islamic History

YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
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3/16/2015 6:09:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

what portion of the population you are referring to? Highschool students? As a Highschool teacher, I don't believe they should spend teaching hours in Islamic History, although I believe Islam should be given more credit in the subject called "Religion" which is sadly absolutely flooded with contents about Christianity as if Christianity was more important than Islam or any other religion.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/16/2015 7:26:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/16/2015 6:09:19 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

what portion of the population you are referring to? Highschool students? As a Highschool teacher, I don't believe they should spend teaching hours in Islamic History, although I believe Islam should be given more credit in the subject called "Religion" which is sadly absolutely flooded with contents about Christianity as if Christianity was more important than Islam or any other religion.

- I would think that's because Christianity is an essential part of the culture & society & thus should be given more weight.

- My question is general, teaching & learning about Islamic History in general.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
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3/17/2015 5:42:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/16/2015 7:26:18 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/16/2015 6:09:19 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

what portion of the population you are referring to? Highschool students? As a Highschool teacher, I don't believe they should spend teaching hours in Islamic History, although I believe Islam should be given more credit in the subject called "Religion" which is sadly absolutely flooded with contents about Christianity as if Christianity was more important than Islam or any other religion.

- I would think that's because Christianity is an essential part of the culture & society & thus should be given more weight.

- My question is general, teaching & learning about Islamic History in general.

I agree it would be normal to give christianity more weight for its contributions to our culture. But the subject is called "religion" not "christianity", and it has never been specified in the decrees concerning this subject that Christianity should be the taught religion by default. Any professional teacher should use part of the agenda to talk about the major religions, and at least mention part of the minor or past religions as far as possible. At the end of the day, understanding Islamic culture is also key to understanding the history of my country (Spain).
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/17/2015 2:02:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 5:42:47 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 3/16/2015 7:26:18 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 3/16/2015 6:09:19 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

what portion of the population you are referring to? Highschool students? As a Highschool teacher, I don't believe they should spend teaching hours in Islamic History, although I believe Islam should be given more credit in the subject called "Religion" which is sadly absolutely flooded with contents about Christianity as if Christianity was more important than Islam or any other religion.

- I would think that's because Christianity is an essential part of the culture & society & thus should be given more weight.

- My question is general, teaching & learning about Islamic History in general.

I agree it would be normal to give christianity more weight for its contributions to our culture. But the subject is called "religion" not "christianity", and it has never been specified in the decrees concerning this subject that Christianity should be the taught religion by default. Any professional teacher should use part of the agenda to talk about the major religions, and at least mention part of the minor or past religions as far as possible. At the end of the day, understanding Islamic culture is also key to understanding the history of my country (Spain).

- Oh, I thought you were American. The US is pretty Christian. & you're definitely right, Islam & Christianity both played an immense role in the History of Spain, previously al-Andalus.

- Understanding different Religions, different Worldviews help expand both one's perspective on life, & one's tolerance with Others.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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3/18/2015 11:27:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

What do you think the primary reasons were for the loss of agency in the Middle East? I'm not talking about Western influence, but the conditions which allowed the West to exert an influence in the first place.

Myself, I pin a lot of it on the development of sea trade routes to Asia by Europe, which caused the land trade routes which were a vital part of Middle Eastern society to slowly atrophy. Another big contributor was extensive desertification along the Mediterranean and in the Mesopotamian valley.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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3/19/2015 3:01:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/18/2015 11:27:35 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 3/15/2015 7:54:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
- What do you actually know about Islamic History?

- Do you think the West knows about Islamic History? Do you think they ought to?

- Discuss a topic in Islamic History.

What do you think the primary reasons were for the loss of agency in the Middle East? I'm not talking about Western influence, but the conditions which allowed the West to exert an influence in the first place.

- Sorry, missed this post.

Myself, I pin a lot of it on the development of sea trade routes to Asia by Europe, which caused the land trade routes which were a vital part of Middle Eastern society to slowly atrophy. Another big contributor was extensive desertification along the Mediterranean and in the Mesopotamian valley.

- What can I say, it's History, so it's much much more complicated than that. The real question isn't about the 'loss of agency', it's rather about the inability to reclaim this 'agency'. Historically, there has been few instances where muslims lost 'agency' in the Middle East, but they eventually take it back ; such as in the aftermath of the Mongol Invasion, or during the Ilkhanate State. I am not saying muslim aren't gonna take back their authority in the future, it's almost certain they will, it's just taking them way too long this time.

- The main reason, probably the only reason, for this 'loss of agency' is the drift of the Islamic World from the Islamic Tradition. Islam is designed to work seamlessly with muslims, substituting it with something else is bound to create problems, particularly 'loss of agency', & History is the best testimony to that. Islam is the identity of muslims, practically all of it, & that's only the case for muslims, no other civilisation or nation has a parallel attribute. So, we are down to examining that drift. IMO, the major factors that contributed to said Drift, or those contributed to those factors are, in no particular order, the following:

> Arabic: in the classical period, although the System was Community based, each people their own autonomy, they were all east to west speaking the same language, in state & education, which kept the whole muslim world linked together by an imposing unifying culture. You had al-Biruni in India, Ibn Sina in Persia, al-Juwayni in Arabia, Ibn Hazm in al-Andalus all writing in the same language, & all aware of each-other's works. During the reign of the Ottoman Empire, Arabic wasn't the official language, & thus the community based governing system they established tuned out a hindrance & a cause for disunity in the Islamic World, it also prevented knowledge from spreading & growing.

> Effective Rulership: this phenomenon can be seen all over Islamic History & it's very likely true in overall History, it's the transfer of effective authority from the Ruler to his Vicegerent (Vizir), once that happens, the Empire (or kingdom) will almost certainly lose its power. It happened with the Umayyads, with the Abassids, with the Ottomans . . (actually with most), which causes certain disunity. The idea is that Authority in Rulership starts disintegrating, & you get factions from all over trying to take a piece of that authority, which is essentially a political failure. In our case, you had the faction of the Sultan (which was mostly ceremonial after Sulayman The Magnificent), another of the Harem (which grew exponentially stronger after Sulayman, you probably heard about the marriage between Sulayman & the Ukrainian lady -I think-), another of the Vizir (which had the authority to take down the Sultan), another of the Inkisharyyah (which exerted immense influence on the Sultan, they even took down few of them). It was basically a political mess, often turned into a military conflict. . . these usually also make use of foreign powers to solve internal conflicts, which invites foreign influence. . .

> Education: this is self explanatory, & it's basically a universal fact. Once Education is not part of the equation, or a neglected part of it, the whole thing is doomed to fail. The Ottomans weren't really fond of Education, unlike the Suljuks & the Abbasids before them, & that's a known fact they themselves don't deny, they mostly relied on military might. I am not saying Education was non existent, rather it was very centralised, & once out of these centres it becomes extremely poor. Here we can draw an analogy between the Greeks vs the Romans, & the Abbasids vs the Ottomans, Education vs. Military.

> Ijtihad: this principal is the most essential foundation of the Islamic Tradition. Ijtihad basically means the ability & authority to independently contribute to the scholarly realm. Ijtihad is the source of development of the Islamic Tradition, the agent that keeps it alive & progressive, the means that binds knowledge to the needs of society. For instance, you wanna conquer a city like Constantinople, you need a big canon to do that, & thus you need an engineer to design it, an engineer capable of taking previous knowledge & technic & using it to meet the need of the situation. & Ijtihad in the Islamic World declined & kept declining from the 17th century onward, & it's the reason why the West advanced in many fields while the Islamic World became stagnant, & that caused the latter to be dependent on the former.

> Trade Routes & rise of Navigation: as you generously pointed out. Long story . . .

. . .

I'll probably do a part 2 or something, this is taking longer than I thought.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
cartidge
Posts: 14
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3/28/2015 1:05:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/17/2015 5:42:47 AM, Otokage wrote:

I agree it would be normal to give christianity more weight for its contributions to our culture.

Unless you are suggesting that the teaching of history should be confined, or at least mostly confined, to the history of the nation in which it is being taught - that is is irrelevant.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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3/28/2015 10:34:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/28/2015 1:05:53 PM, cartidge wrote:
At 3/17/2015 5:42:47 AM, Otokage wrote:

I agree it would be normal to give christianity more weight for its contributions to our culture.

Unless you are suggesting that the teaching of history should be confined, or at least mostly confined, to the history of the nation in which it is being taught - that is is irrelevant.

- I don't quite get what you're trying to say, could you elaborate?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
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Otokage
Posts: 2,360
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3/30/2015 4:12:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/28/2015 1:05:53 PM, cartidge wrote:
At 3/17/2015 5:42:47 AM, Otokage wrote:

I agree it would be normal to give christianity more weight for its contributions to our culture.

Unless you are suggesting that the teaching of history should be confined, or at least mostly confined, to the history of the nation in which it is being taught - that is is irrelevant.

Actualy I do. Imo the teaching of history in school should, or rather already is, partialy confined to the own's country. In fact, not partialy, but mostly. We only study Rome because it was instrumental to our own society, that's why we study Rome and not ancient China, etc.