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What have you learned from history.

sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Gustav_Adolf_II
Posts: 80
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4/9/2015 9:51:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

Vladimir Putin in Crimea seems to have done the same thing Adolf Hitler did in Czechoslovakia - invade a sovereign nation to protect people of the same ethnic group and then annexing the territory with the same excuse.

It really is a shame that so many people forget the lessons of history so easily.
"Quoting yourself only makes you look like an arrogant jerk" - Gustav_Adolf_II
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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4/9/2015 12:53:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

I am inclined to agree. We will eventually lose all rights to free speech and freedom of association. You can see it happening with the gays making christians be part of their weddings with the full support of the gov't. Govt will expand and become more Nazi like everyday. It will use health care as it's vehicle to control all behavior it deems negative. The Nazi's did it to. No health care for you!!
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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4/9/2015 1:20:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

Wow... this is one of those rare points where Wylted and me coincide. I'm gonna have to mark this in my calendar.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/9/2015 1:21:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 1:20:26 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

Wow... this is one of those rare points where Wylted and me coincide. I'm gonna have to mark this in my calendar.

Yay :)
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/10/2015 10:11:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

People not recognizing a threat when they see one, and prefering isolationism and comfort to solidarity and some hardship. Just as in the thirties no one in Europe and America seemed to care very much about the rise of fascism, and the destruction of the Spanish Republic by Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler; today we have people who simply cannot bring themselves to care about the suffering of the Libyans and the Iraqis and the Syrians and the Afghans at the hands of islamofascist forces (not to mention the depradations committed by Putin), because--just like their counterparts in the 30s--it would be too much of a bother to actually do something about it.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.
Varrack
Posts: 2,410
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4/11/2015 1:28:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

You mean more statism?
Genghis_Khan
Posts: 480
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4/11/2015 1:47:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

Feel free to show how that's true...
anything your heart desires
Tomasz
Posts: 1
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4/11/2015 4:34:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I learnt that history are interpretations of the past. History is guided by no spirit and has no capacity to repeat. Exploring it we face lack or abundance of sources and our goal can be either desribing it objectively or finding evidence and support for teh ideas we want to prove.
Mikal
Posts: 11,270
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4/11/2015 5:23:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

that your phone number is a weird sequence
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.

If any of this has changed I would be glad if you could inform me.

While it is true that US politics are far too populistic, but that is inevitable in a democracy, specially in one where a large segment of the population is poorly educated and informed, and that, moreover, there is an alliance-though by no means a harmonious and uninterrupted one--between the state and various corporations, and that the US is too militaristic; but to say that the US is fascist state is an exaggeration.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/11/2015 5:37:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

It wouldn't have to follow all the rules you stipulate but......

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

That's what you call liberalism, and the cult of death that wants legalized abortions and euthanasia, while on the right you have big death penalty supporterS.

2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

Lol, you can't be serious with that one.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

Have you heard of white guilt?

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

It is intolerant of other views, such as religious ones or anti statist ones. There was one report released that showed Ron Paul supporters listed as enemies of the state, as well as pro gun people and anyone else with freedom loving views.

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.


We're you not around after Obama got elected? Reporters were talking about how chills went up their legs because Obama was elected and other hailing him as a savior, do I have to show you videos of black people dancing in the street and literally praising Obama because he was going to shower then with free gas and groceries?

If any of this has changed I would be glad if you could inform me.

While it is true that US politics are far too populistic, but that is inevitable in a democracy, specially in one where a large segment of the population is poorly educated and informed, and that, moreover, there is an alliance-though by no means a harmonious and uninterrupted one--between the state and various corporations, and that the US is too militaristic; but to say that the US is fascist state is an exaggeration.

We live in a fascist state. Google some summaries of the book smiley faces fascism to know my position. When I'm inclined I may write a mini essay for you on it, the United States is fascist and considers the people it's enemy.

Did you know Liberals in California intentionally created environmental laws that have caused an artificial drought and has made millions of people suffer, and this is fairly recent?
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/11/2015 6:27:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 5:37:08 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

It wouldn't have to follow all the rules you stipulate but......

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

That's what you call liberalism, and the cult of death that wants legalized abortions and euthanasia, while on the right you have big death penalty supporterS.

While I am not a supporter of abortion and I am stll undecided about euthanasia, to call them cults of death and destruction would be not just hyporbolic but demagogic. The point about abortion is not to kill the unborn infant, is to try to provide impregnated women with a choice, and not all abortions are morally wrong, as it were. As for euthanasia, that is just the advocacy of giving people the right to choose whether they want to continue living when they are affected by an incurable condition.


2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

Lol, you can't be serious with that one.

The last time the US conquered another country was when? 1898? and most of the colonies it had acquired were given their independence by the late 40s.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

Have you heard of white guilt?

Hardly a valid example. A lot of white people in the US committed genuine atrocities against the minorities of the country, and all that is being asked of "whites" is to participate in rebuilding the country and aiding those who, due to the past actions of the government, were in a vulnerable position. But the government in not preaching resentment and hatred of white people, or seeking revenge against them.

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

It is intolerant of other views, such as religious ones or anti statist ones. There was one report released that showed Ron Paul supporters listed as enemies of the state, as well as pro gun people and anyone else with freedom loving views.

It is simply absurd to say, given the current political context, that religious views are not tolerated, or even the anarchy views of certain people. As for the gun issue what most people are in favor is not a repeal of the 2nd amendment but more strict controls.

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.


We're you not around after Obama got elected? Reporters were talking about how chills went up their legs because Obama was elected and other hailing him as a savior, do I have to show you videos of black people dancing in the street and literally praising Obama because he was going to shower then with free gas and groceries?

While there was a lot of euphoria from a lot of fools at the election of Obama (I remember it well enough, I was one of the very few liberals who did not support Obama, in fact, among my peers I was the only one), this hardly qualifies as a state sponsored cult of personality, anymore than the almost erotic fascination with the decrepit figure of Ron Paul and his son.

I will say this though: given the history of discrimination against black people in the US, enforced by the state and supported by the populace, it is certainly understandable that they should have rejoiced so much when Obama was elected president.

If any of this has changed I would be glad if you could inform me.

While it is true that US politics are far too populistic, but that is inevitable in a democracy, specially in one where a large segment of the population is poorly educated and informed, and that, moreover, there is an alliance-though by no means a harmonious and uninterrupted one--between the state and various corporations, and that the US is too militaristic; but to say that the US is fascist state is an exaggeration.

We live in a fascist state. Google some summaries of the book smiley faces fascism to know my position. When I'm inclined I may write a mini essay for you on it, the United States is fascist and considers the people it's enemy.

I presume you're referring to the book by Goldberg. Just from a Google search and the Wikipedia entry of the book, withouth having to read the reviews, I know that the book is ridiculous. Nothing more than a regurgitation of conservative demagogic points. I will get it nonetheless.

Did you know Liberals in California intentionally created environmental laws that have caused an artificial drought and has made millions of people suffer, and this is fairly recent?

Incompetent policies of the government hardly constitute evidence of fascism, otherwise one would have to hold the ludicrous position that all government is fascist. I would like to see the report in any case, if you can provide it.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/11/2015 6:40:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 6:36:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
I don't have time to respond to all that nonsense but here is an article on the drought.

I will expect a reply later.

http://www.bloomberg.com...

Thank you for the article, I will read it.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/12/2015 4:26:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

US military.

2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

The Nazis embraced modernity and art. "Degenerate" could mean anything...repressing Southern Dixieland culture could be seen as a "war against degenerate art".

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

Ethnic repression though, yes.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

Pax Americana.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

Monroe Doctrine.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

Islamophobia.

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

Islamophobia.

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.

Obama's presidency resembles a cult of personality in many ways.

If any of this has changed I would be glad if you could inform me.

While it is true that US politics are far too populistic, but that is inevitable in a democracy, specially in one where a large segment of the population is poorly educated and informed, and that, moreover, there is an alliance-though by no means a harmonious and uninterrupted one--between the state and various corporations, and that the US is too militaristic; but to say that the US is fascist state is an exaggeration.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/12/2015 4:27:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/10/2015 10:11:08 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

People not recognizing a threat when they see one, and prefering isolationism and comfort to solidarity and some hardship. Just as in the thirties no one in Europe and America seemed to care very much about the rise of fascism, and the destruction of the Spanish Republic by Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler; today we have people who simply cannot bring themselves to care about the suffering of the Libyans and the Iraqis and the Syrians and the Afghans at the hands of islamofascist forces (not to mention the depradations committed by Putin), because--just like their counterparts in the 30s--it would be too much of a bother to actually do something about it.

I do agree with you here, although something tells me how we would approach it would be...a point of contention.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
ButterCatX
Posts: 2,228
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4/12/2015 4:36:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

Obama is becoming a Neville Chamberlain, and appeasing ISIS in the much the same way that Chamberlain appeased Hitler. (appeasement doesn't work)
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
HououinKyouma
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4/12/2015 5:01:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:27:07 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:08 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

People not recognizing a threat when they see one, and prefering isolationism and comfort to solidarity and some hardship. Just as in the thirties no one in Europe and America seemed to care very much about the rise of fascism, and the destruction of the Spanish Republic by Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler; today we have people who simply cannot bring themselves to care about the suffering of the Libyans and the Iraqis and the Syrians and the Afghans at the hands of islamofascist forces (not to mention the depradations committed by Putin), because--just like their counterparts in the 30s--it would be too much of a bother to actually do something about it.

I do agree with you here, although something tells me how we would approach it would be...a point of contention.

Indeed, so let's just leave at that.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/12/2015 5:04:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 5:01:22 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:27:07 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:08 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

People not recognizing a threat when they see one, and prefering isolationism and comfort to solidarity and some hardship. Just as in the thirties no one in Europe and America seemed to care very much about the rise of fascism, and the destruction of the Spanish Republic by Franco, Mussolini, and Hitler; today we have people who simply cannot bring themselves to care about the suffering of the Libyans and the Iraqis and the Syrians and the Afghans at the hands of islamofascist forces (not to mention the depradations committed by Putin), because--just like their counterparts in the 30s--it would be too much of a bother to actually do something about it.

I do agree with you here, although something tells me how we would approach it would be...a point of contention.

Indeed, so let's just leave at that.

I'll simply say that I do very much disagree with your conception of war and military affairs generally, and that if you are able to have a civil discourse on it, I would be more than willing to debate you or what not about it. I recognize you to be cogent.

Without that civility...then no thanks.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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4/12/2015 5:10:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:26:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

US military.

Not at all. It is the stated policy of the US military to minimize casualties, not just of their own soldiers, but of the other side. The US military cannot be compared to the armies of Franco whose slogan was "Viva la muerte!" or the SS, or the armies of the emperor Hirohito, or the bin-Ladenist nihilists.

2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

The Nazis embraced modernity and art. "Degenerate" could mean anything...repressing Southern Dixieland culture could be seen as a "war against degenerate art".

The Nazis embraced modern technology but they rejected: modern values, which is the main thing, like equality and liberty, and they had an romantic agrarian ideology. As far as I know, the government of the US does not repress Dixie culture at all, and neither does it ban any form of art.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

Ethnic repression though, yes.

Not anymore.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

Pax Americana.

That's not an empire.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

Monroe Doctrine.

The US did not occupy and annex Latin America, what the Monroe Doctrine did was warn the European powers that intervention in the New World against the newly created independent states would mean war with the US.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

Islamophobia.

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

Islamophobia.

1) Islamophobia is a meaningless term used by fascists and their sympathizers to silence critics of Islam.

2) The US government does not sponsor in any way prejudice against Muslims. There are a lot of people in the US who are prejudiced against Muslims, but this is not government policy.

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.

Obama's presidency resembles a cult of personality in many ways.

1) The Cult of Obama was never sponsored by the government, and it would be ridiculous to say so, given how a large part of Congress has always opposed and hated Obama since before he took office.
2) While the supporters of Obama did behave in a truly idiotic way in '08--almost religiously idiotic, in fact--the enthusiasm for President Obama seems to have subsided, indeed, a lot of liberals seem to be disappointed with him.

If any of this has changed I would be glad if you could inform me.

While it is true that US politics are far too populistic, but that is inevitable in a democracy, specially in one where a large segment of the population is poorly educated and informed, and that, moreover, there is an alliance-though by no means a harmonious and uninterrupted one--between the state and various corporations, and that the US is too militaristic; but to say that the US is fascist state is an exaggeration.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
HououinKyouma
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4/12/2015 5:11:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:36:35 PM, ButterCatX wrote:
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

Obama is becoming a Neville Chamberlain, and appeasing ISIS in the much the same way that Chamberlain appeased Hitler. (appeasement doesn't work)

You are aware that Obama is bombing the hell out of those nihilists, right?
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
sadolite
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4/12/2015 5:12:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 4:36:35 PM, ButterCatX wrote:
At 4/8/2015 10:07:41 PM, sadolite wrote:
What do you see happening in the world today that is history just repeating itself.

Obama is becoming a Neville Chamberlain, and appeasing ISIS in the much the same way that Chamberlain appeased Hitler. (appeasement doesn't work)

Bump spot on
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
wrichcirw
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4/12/2015 5:36:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 5:10:25 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:26:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/11/2015 5:24:12 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/11/2015 6:26:06 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/10/2015 10:11:10 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/9/2015 4:38:15 AM, Wylted wrote:
America is turning into a friendlier version of Nazi Germany.

What sort of hyperbole is this?

It's the truth. It is smiley faced fascism.

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

US military.

Not at all. It is the stated policy of the US military to minimize casualties, not just of their own soldiers, but of the other side. The US military cannot be compared to the armies of Franco whose slogan was "Viva la muerte!" or the SS, or the armies of the emperor Hirohito, or the bin-Ladenist nihilists.

Sometimes I wonder about this. I think you are correct with the political assessment of the military, but military culture itself is a bit different. This is a culture built on the profession of killing...promotability and awards are given to the most efficient killers as a policy. Any gains in military efficiency directly translate to more efficient killing on the battlefield. Yes, it may ultimately lead to a swifter end to a conflict and thus fewer casualties on both sides...but if it didn't, that's when you start dragging out the body count statistics, like we saw in Vietnam. That then begins to resemble what you cited...the point being, the military IS a culture of killing. When I was in the service, I saw more hunters than I'd ever seen in my life. I mean, great people, don't get me wrong, but the cultural aspect I am citing was very, VERY strong.

2) It had not become hostile to modernity and neither had it declared a war against decadent and degenerate art.

The Nazis embraced modernity and art. "Degenerate" could mean anything...repressing Southern Dixieland culture could be seen as a "war against degenerate art".

The Nazis embraced modern technology but they rejected: modern values, which is the main thing, like equality and liberty, and they had an romantic agrarian ideology. As far as I know, the government of the US does not repress Dixie culture at all, and neither does it ban any form of art.

Granted on the Nazis, as far as repressing Dixie culture, every time I hear talk about Southern hicks/inbred this or that, I consider that to be repression of Southern culture. Also the stigma against a southern accent.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

Ethnic repression though, yes.

Not anymore.

Islamophobia.

4) It was not nostalgic for past glories and former empires.

Pax Americana.

That's not an empire.

That is most definitely an empire. We should probably agree to disagree here.

5) It was not an expansionist state.

Monroe Doctrine.

The US did not occupy and annex Latin America, what the Monroe Doctrine did was warn the European powers that intervention in the New World against the newly created independent states would mean war with the US.

It also gave the US a clean opportunity to annex territory beyond the 13 colonies, which they did in quick order.

In regards to your main point about current affairs (sorry, I missed that initially) we will have to agree to disagree. You probably remember my stance, I consider NATO and etc alliances to be under US control.

6) It was not obsessed with past imagined or real humiliations and preaching resentment, and seeking revenge, against those who had humiliated it.

Islamophobia.

7) It was not anti-semitic or racist.

Islamophobia.

1) Islamophobia is a meaningless term used by fascists and their sympathizers to silence critics of Islam.

Your talk actually sounds more like fascism than those you criticize.

2) The US government does not sponsor in any way prejudice against Muslims. There are a lot of people in the US who are prejudiced against Muslims, but this is not government policy.

"Randomly selected for screening".
http://www.cnn.com...

8) And, finally, it did not impose a cult of personality around a leader or a party, or even seek to indoctrinate people to accept one ideology as the only true and legitimate one.

Obama's presidency resembles a cult of personality in many ways.

1) The Cult of Obama was never sponsored by the government, and it would be ridiculous to say so, given how a large part of Congress has always opposed and hated Obama since before he took office.

It's most definitely sponsored by the government...I don't know how you would argue it isn't. Obama leads our government and actively courts mass media outlets to get face time to spread this cult. Congress by comparison has single-digit approval ratings.

2) While the supporters of Obama did behave in a truly idiotic way in '08--almost religiously idiotic, in fact--the enthusiasm for President Obama seems to have subsided, indeed, a lot of liberals seem to be disappointed with him.

I'm neutral on your assessment here except that I will point out that Sarah Palin did bring out a certain religiosity in me...one that demanded any other politician in the White House except for her.

I was hoping for a McCain/Romney ticket and most likely would have voted for that...but now I'm a proud Obamican. How Romney was treated in 2008 was a travesty...I think it led him to make a Faustian bargain that resulted in some of the dubious positions he took in 2012. Or just gotcha moments, take your pick.

---

All I'll add is that obviously there are degrees to all of this, and I do think the US falls far lower in degree than some other countries historically...but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and I most definitely think we are slowly but surely trending towards the direction of a "friendlier version of Nazi Germany".
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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4/12/2015 6:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 5:10:25 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/12/2015 4:26:10 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

Maybe I have failed to keep up with current events, but last time I checked, the US government was not doing any of the following:

1) Sponsoring a cult of death and destruction.

US military.

Not at all. It is the stated policy of the US military to minimize casualties, not just of their own soldiers, but of the other side. The US military cannot be compared to the armies of Franco whose slogan was "Viva la muerte!" or the SS, or the armies of the emperor Hirohito, or the bin-Ladenist nihilists.

I mean, I'll give you an example. I saw Jack Reacher a while back, and when I saw it the second time I realized it was a bit corny...but the first time I watched it was mesmerized. There's one line I still remember from that movie:

"Every suspect was a trained killer". https://www.youtube.com...

The line is true.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
HououinKyouma
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4/12/2015 11:50:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 5:36:39 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
Sometimes I wonder about this. I think you are correct with the political assessment of the military, but military culture itself is a bit different. This is a culture built on the profession of killing...promotability and awards are given to the most efficient killers as a policy. Any gains in military efficiency directly translate to more efficient killing on the battlefield. Yes, it may ultimately lead to a swifter end to a conflict and thus fewer casualties on both sides...but if it didn't, that's when you start dragging out the body count statistics, like we saw in Vietnam. That then begins to resemble what you cited...the point being, the military IS a culture of killing. When I was in the service, I saw more hunters than I'd ever seen in my life. I mean, great people, don't get me wrong, but the cultural aspect I am citing was very, VERY strong.

In a sense you're right, and in the police one could arguably say, there is an internal culture of violence, as it is often required, in some form or another, to restrain criminals and prevent crimes. However, I think that you're missing the point, just as the main purpose of the policy is not to beat the hell out of every criminal in sight, the point of the US military is not to engage in mass murder, unlike the SS which was created for that very purpose and had special units whose mission was to commit murder, and the same can be said about Al-Qaeda and Hamas and ISIS: their mission is to produce indiscriminate explosions and kill as many people as they can.

The Nazis embraced modern technology but they rejected: modern values, which is the main thing, like equality and liberty, and they had an romantic agrarian ideology. As far as I know, the government of the US does not repress Dixie culture at all, and neither does it ban any form of art.

Granted on the Nazis, as far as repressing Dixie culture, every time I hear talk about Southern hicks/inbred this or that, I consider that to be repression of Southern culture. Also the stigma against a southern accent.

Yes, but the government is not doing any of that, it is part of the culture, and I would agree with you that it does get out of hand and can be offensive, and should stop, but the hicks/inbred slurs are not directed so much against Dixie culture--a lot of those people would still be fans of Lynyrd Skynyrd for instance--as it is directed against a certain element of the Southern population.

3) It did not preach and enforce sexual repression.

Ethnic repression though, yes.

Not anymore.

Islamophobia.

Not enforced of preached by the state. The government has not prohibited Muslims from serving in the federal government, there are no bans, as far as I am aware, at the state level either, against Muslims. The Koran is distributed in jails and in the army to Muslim prisoners and Muslim soldiers (it is rather unfortunate that they happen to be Korans produced by the Wahabis), and there are Muslim chaplains in the Army.
.

The US did not occupy and annex Latin America, what the Monroe Doctrine did was warn the European powers that intervention in the New World against the newly created independent states would mean war with the US.

It also gave the US a clean opportunity to annex territory beyond the 13 colonies, which they did in quick order.

Actually, a large part of that territory had been bought from France (Louisiana Purchase).

In regards to your main point about current affairs (sorry, I missed that initially) we will have to agree to disagree. You probably remember my stance, I consider NATO and etc alliances to be under US control.

Sure. However, the reason why I disagree with those who claim (whether on the left or on the right) that the US is imperialistic and that NATO members are just colonies, is that if this was true, they would all have supported the liberation of Iraq, for example.

1) Islamophobia is a meaningless term used by fascists and their sympathizers to silence critics of Islam.

Your talk actually sounds more like fascism than those you criticize.

Okay, those who use the term Islamophobia, do so to silence critics of Islam, which is why it is used against former Muslims who have become critical of certain aspects of Islam, or of the religion as a whole, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It is also meaningless because it is an attempt to put it in the same category as anti-semitism and racism in general, but Islam is not a race, and neither does it claim to be one.

2) The US government does not sponsor in any way prejudice against Muslims. There are a lot of people in the US who are prejudiced against Muslims, but this is not government policy.

"Randomly selected for screening".
http://www.cnn.com...

It's most definitely sponsored by the government...I don't know how you would argue it isn't. Obama leads our government and actively courts mass media outlets to get face time to spread this cult. Congress by comparison has single-digit approval ratings.

Obama using media outlets that are friendly to his views is hardly an expression of a cult of personality, it is just political campaigning, it is quite legitimate; most of congress oppose him, roughly half of the country do as well, and half of the SCOTUS, and there are quite a few media outlets which criticize him, some of them seem to be dedicated to just that, there is no suppression of the opposition. The reason why Congress has such low approval ratings (and while we are on that topic, Obama's approval rating is at around 40%) is because people perceive it as inneffectual, but a lot of people support the individual politicians in it and the political parties that conform it.

The following "leaders" have actually imposed a cult of personality on their countries: The Kim crime family, Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, Muammar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, Augusto Pinochet, Ruhollah Khomeini, Juan Domingo Peron, Francisco Franco, Mao Zedung, Benito Mussolini, and of course, Adolft Hitler and Joseph Stalin. This is not an exhaustive list, to be sure. In the countries ruled by these criminals, not only was every newspaper and media report filled with nothing but praise but criticism meant (or means) at best incarceration and at worse (or best) death.

I'm neutral on your assessment here except that I will point out that Sarah Palin did bring out a certain religiosity in me...one that demanded any other politician in the White House except for her.

Ditto.

I was hoping for a McCain/Romney ticket and most likely would have voted for that...but now I'm a proud Obamican. How Romney was treated in 2008 was a travesty...I think it led him to make a Faustian bargain that resulted in some of the dubious positions he took in 2012. Or just gotcha moments, take your pick.

On the '08 issue: I wanted Hilary at first, and then McCain, when Obama got the Democratic nomination; I was unwilling to support such a green politician as a future POTUS. As for 2012, I don't think there was much of a real choice between Romney and Obama, and I agree with your assessment of Romney.

All I'll add is that obviously there are degrees to all of this, and I do think the US falls far lower in degree than some other countries historically...but that doesn't mean it isn't there, and I most definitely think we are slowly but surely trending towards the direction of a "friendlier version of Nazi Germany".

It is certainly true that the fascist or at any rate totalitarian temptation is ever present, but I think that the US is not at all tending towards that at the moment, the democratic element of America, and its open society are still too strong to bow the knee, as it were.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
wrichcirw
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4/13/2015 3:54:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/12/2015 11:50:46 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/12/2015 5:36:39 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

In a sense you're right, and in the police one could arguably say, there is an internal culture of violence, as it is often required, in some form or another, to restrain criminals and prevent crimes. However, I think that you're missing the point, just as the main purpose of the policy is not to beat the hell out of every criminal in sight, the point of the US military is not to engage in mass murder, unlike the SS which was created for that very purpose and had special units whose mission was to commit murder, and the same can be said about Al-Qaeda and Hamas and ISIS: their mission is to produce indiscriminate explosions and kill as many people as they can.

Hmmm...

1) Murder vs killing is determined by legality. I mean, sure, there is moral outrage as well...my point is that it's subjective.
2) If people said that police foster a cult of violence, I don't think that's far off the mark. That's not necessarily a bad thing either...I've had a debate specifically about violence not being something that has a categorical moral classification. (http://www.debate.org...) By this same logic, that the military fosters a cult of death and destruction is not categorically wrong...it just is what it is. It serves a specific purpose. Whether or not that death and destruction is used in a moral fashion is up to those that use it.
3) You probably recall our last conversation about war vs genocide, and how I consider all war to be genocide. The next question would then be - can genocide be moral? I would argue it can be...but it's still genocide.

Granted on the Nazis, as far as repressing Dixie culture, every time I hear talk about Southern hicks/inbred this or that, I consider that to be repression of Southern culture. Also the stigma against a southern accent.

Yes, but the government is not doing any of that, it is part of the culture, and I would agree with you that it does get out of hand and can be offensive, and should stop, but the hicks/inbred slurs are not directed so much against Dixie culture--a lot of those people would still be fans of Lynyrd Skynyrd for instance--as it is directed against a certain element of the Southern population.

Ok, fair enough.

Islamophobia.

Not enforced of preached by the state. The government has not prohibited Muslims from serving in the federal government, there are no bans, as far as I am aware, at the state level either, against Muslims. The Koran is distributed in jails and in the army to Muslim prisoners and Muslim soldiers (it is rather unfortunate that they happen to be Korans produced by the Wahabis), and there are Muslim chaplains in the Army.

A quick search for "state-sponsored islamophobia" returned the below link at the top of the search.
http://www.islamcenter.com...

[Monroe Doctrine]
It also gave the US a clean opportunity to annex territory beyond the 13 colonies, which they did in quick order.

Actually, a large part of that territory had been bought from France (Louisiana Purchase).

Large, but a minority.

In regards to your main point about current affairs (sorry, I missed that initially) we will have to agree to disagree. You probably remember my stance, I consider NATO and etc alliances to be under US control.

Sure. However, the reason why I disagree with those who claim (whether on the left or on the right) that the US is imperialistic and that NATO members are just colonies, is that if this was true, they would all have supported the liberation of Iraq, for example.

My point has been that their support matters very little, because they aren't militarized, and it's in our interests to keep them that way. Their support in the first Gulf War was not important, same in Vietnam, Korea, etc...

Okay, those who use the term Islamophobia, do so to silence critics of Islam, which is why it is used against former Muslims who have become critical of certain aspects of Islam, or of the religion as a whole, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It is also meaningless because it is an attempt to put it in the same category as anti-semitism and racism in general, but Islam is not a race, and neither does it claim to be one.

- It's religious persecution. A large part of anti-semitism is religious persecution.
- There are two ways to silence criticism, 1) convince the other side they are wrong, or 2) to forcibly silence them. The use of the word "Islamophobia" can do #1, it cannot do #2.

2) The US government does not sponsor in any way prejudice against Muslims. There are a lot of people in the US who are prejudiced against Muslims, but this is not government policy.

"Randomly selected for screening".
http://www.cnn.com...

It's most definitely sponsored by the government...I don't know how you would argue it isn't. Obama leads our government and actively courts mass media outlets to get face time to spread this cult. Congress by comparison has single-digit approval ratings.

Obama using media outlets that are friendly to his views is hardly an expression of a cult of personality, it is just political campaigning, it is quite legitimate...

The following "leaders" have actually imposed a cult of personality on their countries: The Kim crime family, Vladimir Putin, Bashar al-Assad, Muammar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Slobodan Milosevic, Augusto Pinochet, Ruhollah Khomeini, Juan Domingo Peron, Francisco Franco, Mao Zedung, Benito Mussolini, and of course, Adolft Hitler and Joseph Stalin. This is not an exhaustive list, to be sure. In the countries ruled by these criminals, not only was every newspaper and media report filled with nothing but praise but criticism meant (or means) at best incarceration and at worse (or best) death.

I think what you are demonstrating is that there are degrees to which a cult of personality can solidify around a leader.

I don't consider the issue to be one centered around legitimacy...there are legitimate and illegitimate versions of such cults. IMHO it centers around what you brought up about '08 Obama voters...that whole religious aspect behind the leader. MLK and Gandhi would thus also have strong cults of personality behind them as well, you would probably consider them to be largely legitimate. Regardless, it does entail the adherents putting the blinders on...MLK was a moral hypocrite, and Gandhi was not above resorting to violence.

On the '08 issue: I wanted Hilary at first, and then McCain, when Obama got the Democratic nomination; I was unwilling to support such a green politician as a future POTUS. As for 2012, I don't think there was much of a real choice between Romney and Obama, and I agree with your assessment of Romney.

100% agree. Like, you described my exact thoughts about 2008, lol...

It is certainly true that the fascist or at any rate totalitarian temptation is ever present, but I think that the US is not at all tending towards that at the moment, the democratic element of America, and its open society are still too strong to bow the knee, as it were.

I disagree. I mean, yes, it's not nearly as noticeable, I'll give you that, but I remember seeing what came out of media outlets after the Boston Bombing...the photos all depicted police forces not in riot gear, but in something resembling para-military equipment. I remember thinking - this is what martial law would look like. We got a taste of it briefly at that moment, something I've never seen in America before. This wasn't even a mobilization of the national guard...this was just the police.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?