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If Allies pushed back USSR in 1945?

Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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5/22/2016 4:17:55 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Most likely we would have seen a unified Germany as well as various Eastern European states having the ability to resist Communism as a regional superpower, being Germany, would've easily existed.
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PetersSmith
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5/22/2016 5:48:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM, Dark-one wrote:
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?

Operation Unthinkable would have NEVER worked. The Soviet numerical superiority in relation to the Western Allies was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.
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The-Voice-of-Truth
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5/22/2016 5:49:31 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 5:48:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM, Dark-one wrote:
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?

Operation Unthinkable would have NEVER worked. The Soviet numerical superiority in relation to the Western Allies was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.

Well, gee, thanks Lend Lease.
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Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/22/2016 10:18:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 5:48:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM, Dark-one wrote:
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?

Operation Unthinkable would have NEVER worked. The Soviet numerical superiority in relation to the Western Allies was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.

The Russians had to share rifles from time to time, and Stalin killed off all his skilled officers. That's not even talking about Order 227, where a number of soldiers were shot for retreating.

The Allies had the full might of their forces on standby without these issues. I don't see how Russia would've stood a chance against this.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,085
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5/25/2016 6:12:36 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Obviously history would have unfolded differently, but it's impossible to say what that different history would have been! Moscow might well have been nuked - who knows what difference that would make?

But I don't think the allies had the will to fight on, certainly not to the lengths that defeating the USSR would have taken. Napoleon and Hitler failed beat the Russians. I am not sure the allies - already exhausted after 6 years of war would have done any better. It is almost certain the Nazis would not have been beaten without the Russians, so there was no anti-Russian feeling in the public to rally people behind for such a campaign at the time.

It fun doing 'what ifs' but surely you can get more or less any scenario you like out of such exercises?
keithprosser
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5/25/2016 6:30:34 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Postscript:
I think its interesting to read this report prepared for the British cabinet on operation Unthinkable at the time.

https://web.archive.org...

It is perhaps notable that the use of atomic weapons is not mentioned anywhere. Why not? I have no idea. I get the impression the report was written in such a way as to pour cold water on the idea without sounding defeatist. Or possibly the a-bomb was still too new to have been fully assimilated into hide-bound strategists.
Crimea-2014
Posts: 12
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5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.
Crimea-2014
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5/25/2016 7:43:48 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 10:18:09 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/22/2016 5:48:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM, Dark-one wrote:
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?

Operation Unthinkable would have NEVER worked. The Soviet numerical superiority in relation to the Western Allies was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.

The Russians had to share rifles from time to time, and Stalin killed off all his skilled officers. That's not even talking about Order 227, where a number of soldiers were shot for retreating.

The Allies had the full might of their forces on standby without these issues. I don't see how Russia would've stood a chance against this.

This was the case in 1941/1942 but by 1945 the Soviets were well supplied with rifles and their officers and soldiers were battle hardened veterans. Order # 227 was actually effective during WWII. It caused Soviet divisions to fight to the death rather than surrendering or retreating, something that greatly slowed down the German advance. Considering the fact that the Soviets had a 4:1 numerical superiority in Europe in 1945 over the Western Allies and had installed pro Soviet governments in all of eastern Europe, Operation Unthinkable no chance at all.
Crimea-2014
Posts: 12
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5/25/2016 7:47:13 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 5:49:31 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/22/2016 5:48:13 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 5/21/2016 10:22:35 PM, Dark-one wrote:
What would've been different had the U.S listened to Patton and forced back Russian forces to their borders?

Operation Unthinkable would have NEVER worked. The Soviet numerical superiority in relation to the Western Allies was roughly 4:1 in men and 2:1 in tanks at the end of hostilities in Europe.

Well, gee, thanks Lend Lease.

Lend lease made up approximately 15% of total Soviet production. While this was important, it was not decisive and by 1945 the Soviets were producing plenty of their own supplies.
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/25/2016 10:52:21 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.

If people had been aware of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain, what kind of person Stalin was, they might've supported the war.
NothingSpecial99
Posts: 379
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5/26/2016 12:32:45 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
United States had the atomic bomb too.
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Crimea-2014
Posts: 12
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5/26/2016 7:37:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/25/2016 10:52:21 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.

If people had been aware of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain, what kind of person Stalin was, they might've supported the war.

I believe a war between east and west would have killed far more people than the number of people who died in the USSR between 1945 and 1991.
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/26/2016 8:38:09 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 7:37:46 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 10:52:21 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.

If people had been aware of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain, what kind of person Stalin was, they might've supported the war.

I believe a war between east and west would have killed far more people than the number of people who died in the USSR between 1945 and 1991.

Forgot to account for people who died as a result of Soviet meddling in global affairs, all the unstable countries.
Crimea-2014
Posts: 12
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5/26/2016 8:58:00 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 8:38:09 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/26/2016 7:37:46 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 10:52:21 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.

If people had been aware of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain, what kind of person Stalin was, they might've supported the war.

I believe a war between east and west would have killed far more people than the number of people who died in the USSR between 1945 and 1991.

Forgot to account for people who died as a result of Soviet meddling in global affairs, all the unstable countries.

Thats debatable considering the number of people US bombings killed in Vietnam.
Dark-one
Posts: 211
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5/26/2016 10:06:20 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/26/2016 8:58:00 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
At 5/26/2016 8:38:09 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/26/2016 7:37:46 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
At 5/25/2016 10:52:21 PM, Dark-one wrote:
At 5/25/2016 7:34:24 PM, Crimea-2014 wrote:
Churchill ordered people to look into Operation Unthinkable and its chances of success. The chances of success were small and therefore it was cancelled.

Also, one must not forget that the Soviets could lose huge amounts of men and fight on. The West would have been fighting an unpopular war (that they had started) and as their casualties mounted the same thing would happen as what happened in the US during the Vietnam war.

If people had been aware of what life was like behind the Iron Curtain, what kind of person Stalin was, they might've supported the war.

I believe a war between east and west would have killed far more people than the number of people who died in the USSR between 1945 and 1991.

Forgot to account for people who died as a result of Soviet meddling in global affairs, all the unstable countries.

Thats debatable considering the number of people US bombings killed in Vietnam.

True.

And the lives still suffering today around the world because of Cold War meddling.
JohnF.Kennedy
Posts: 19
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7/29/2016 2:58:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
If the Germans didn't do it, what makes you think that the US would with clear numerical inferiority and the Comintern being twice as large
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