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Did Jesus Christ exist?

Stupidape
Posts: 171
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8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...
fire_wings
Posts: 5,561
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8/8/2016 1:38:55 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

In the religion forum.
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bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/8/2016 6:49:13 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/8/2016 1:38:55 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

In the religion forum.

Is the existence of a historical character not historical as well?

Also, who comments on a post just to tell them to take it somewhere else.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
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8/8/2016 6:49:20 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

Yes, he did exist.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,681
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8/8/2016 9:13:42 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
As a historical figure? Yes. We do have historical records from non-Christian accounts (Jewish and Roman) from historians like Tacitus and Josephus, both accounts made within the same century of Jesus (pbuh)

As the "Son of God"? That's a topic more fitting for the religious forum.
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Stupidape
Posts: 171
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8/8/2016 10:19:49 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/8/2016 9:13:42 PM, UtherPenguin wrote:
As a historical figure? Yes. We do have historical records from non-Christian accounts (Jewish and Roman) from historians like Tacitus and Josephus, both accounts made within the same century of Jesus (pbuh)

As the "Son of God"? That's a topic more fitting for the religious forum.

This website states otherwise, who is correct?

http://www.truthbeknown.com...
keithprosser
Posts: 1,951
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8/8/2016 10:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
George washington te president existed, but George Washington the boy who chopped down a cherry tree and couldn't tell a lie never did. It is not a question of whether Jesus existed but how much of the Gospel story has to be true or false to say whether Jesus existed or did not exist.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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8/12/2016 12:20:00 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

I do not believe that he existed, but I take more of a weak mythicist position.
Every aspect of Christianity can exist without Jesus actually existing, and so with Occam's Razor we can rule Jesus out.
It is already agreed upon by historians that many of the fantastical aspects of Jesus were made up during the period of Oral Tradition.
If we consider that there was early disagreement on when Jesus existed, we can push back the Oral Tradition (have it start even earlier) and extend what was made up to not be just aspects about Jesus but to include Jesus himself.
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Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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8/13/2016 2:13:29 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/12/2016 12:20:00 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

I do not believe that he existed, but I take more of a weak mythicist position.
Every aspect of Christianity can exist without Jesus actually existing, and so with Occam's Razor we can rule Jesus out.
It is already agreed upon by historians that many of the fantastical aspects of Jesus were made up during the period of Oral Tradition.
If we consider that there was early disagreement on when Jesus existed, we can push back the Oral Tradition (have it start even earlier) and extend what was made up to not be just aspects about Jesus but to include Jesus himself.

Occam's Razor is too often abused. People tend to forget about the "all things being equal" part. How often are all things equal? According to physics the answer is never. Even assuming that they are, still all that you are left with are probabilistic answers. The simplest answer is certainly not always the correct one.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/16/2016 9:03:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/15/2016 6:37:54 PM, Hispanic_Hushpuppy wrote:
There is historical evidence that a man named Jesus Christ lived in Judea at the end of the Common Era.

Where?
Jucalion
Posts: 8
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8/20/2016 6:56:51 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
Historical Non-Christian Sources for the existence of Jesus and the Christian sect.

Josephus Flavius: The Antiquities of The Jews. Book 20. (Written c. 93CE)
~ Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he (Ananus) assembled the Sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:

Tacitus: The Annals: Book 15. (Written c. 109-116CE).
~ Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most pernicious superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Suetonius: The Lives Of The Caesars: Nero, Chapter 16. (Written c.119-122CE.)
~ During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and wicked superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people.
Lynx_N
Posts: 276
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9/5/2016 3:19:38 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/16/2016 9:03:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/15/2016 6:37:54 PM, Hispanic_Hushpuppy wrote:
There is historical evidence that a man named Jesus Christ lived in Judea at the end of the Common Era.

Where?

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keithprosser
Posts: 1,951
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9/7/2016 5:25:51 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I think it is very likely there was a charismatic religious speaker and teacher who said many of the things attributed to Jesus, but he was not born of a virgin and couldn't do miracles because he was 100% an ordinary human. It is possible that Jesus is a pure fiction, but I think that is slightly more probable he is closer to Robin Hood than Harry Potter - ie an exaggerated idealisation of a real person rather simply a character imagined out of thin air.

If so it doesn't seem possible to classify that sitatuation unambiguously as 'Jesus existed' nor as 'Jesus did not exist'. There was - apparently - an outlaw called Robin Hood, but he was a common thief who probably did steal from the rich - but not to give to the poor!

btw - I am an atheist so I don't consider the case of the gospel story is literally true.
YouGotsToBe
Posts: 4
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9/19/2016 3:24:01 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I think he did exist, excuse me being a person who will completely twist the story around and give an entire different version of Jesus.
I think Jesus was either a Hinduist or Buddhist disciple. He preaches the I am state and love and compassion, rising above situations in the name of love and selflesness, this is very familiar to the buddhist idea's of how to live life.

Actually being born of a virgin, in my opinion studying the occult doesn't necessarily mean never had sex. Virgin means pure, she was a saint, who didn't indulge in greed/hatred and those kinds of things. Having a clean and pure mind and lifted spirit she was able to give birth to children that would carry the same energy and rise even further into the purest of pure?? There are many hints suggesting Jesus was a buddhist or hinduist in nature. His teachings are surely quite alike.
keithprosser
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9/23/2016 11:16:44 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Is the question whether an ordinary human is the core around which an elobrate mythology was woven (quite probably), or is the question whether thevirgin born, miracle working avatar of God walked in Palestine 2000 years ago?(um, probably not!)
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/28/2016 3:18:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/20/2016 6:56:51 PM, Jucalion wrote:
Historical Non-Christian Sources for the existence of Jesus and the Christian sect.

Josephus Flavius: The Antiquities of The Jews. Book 20. (Written c. 93CE)
~ Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he (Ananus) assembled the Sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned:

Something of importance to note is that early Christians constantly used Josephus' work as a source for history, and they never show knowledge of this being a reference to their Jesus or their James. In fact, a tradition even formed about how James died that is different from this. With how often Josephus was used as a source this is highly improbable if this verse does, in fact, refer to Jesus and James of Christianity.

This can mean a few things:
1) That the word Christ here was not in reference to the Christian Messiah but was being used as a word for the High Priest (and there was a High Priest Jesus with a brother named James).
2) This did not initially include the phrase "who was called Christ" and that that statement may have been a marginal note from some later translator that accidentally got inserted (something somewhat common).

Tacitus: The Annals: Book 15. (Written c. 109-116CE).
~ Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most pernicious superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

Pliny the Elder was an actual witness and rote extensively on this subject.
Pliny the Younger was infatuated with Elder's work and read everything in detail.
Pliny the Younger also shows, in some of his writings (which would take place after having read the Elder's works) no knowledge of who Christians are.
This makes it highly unlikely that Christians were historically involved in this situation, and thus Tacitus most likely got his information from Christians, and thus does not affirm the existence of Jesus, just the existence of Christians.

Suetonius: The Lives Of The Caesars: Nero, Chapter 16. (Written c.119-122CE.)
~ During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made: a limit was set to expenditures; the public banquets were confined to a distribution of food; the sale of any kind of cooked viands in the taverns was forbidden, with the exception of pulse and vegetables, whereas before every sort of dainty was exposed for sale. Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and wicked superstition. He put an end to the diversions of the chariot drivers, who from immunity of long standing claimed the right of ranging at large and amusing themselves by cheating and robbing the people.

Only really affirms the existence of Christians and is too late of a source to really be reliable.
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SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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9/30/2016 3:04:24 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 6:44:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
http://atheisticallyspeaking.com...

Part 1 of a two-part podcast with Tim O'Neill. Incredibly enlightening review of Jesus mythicism, good interviewer pushback from Thomas, and useful clarification on what we should probably be talking about when we ask whether Jesus existed.

Would you like to debate this sometime? On live video instead of this restricting format (moreso a discussion instead of a "debate")
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Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/2/2016 1:23:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/30/2016 3:04:24 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 9/28/2016 6:44:14 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
http://atheisticallyspeaking.com...

Part 1 of a two-part podcast with Tim O'Neill. Incredibly enlightening review of Jesus mythicism, good interviewer pushback from Thomas, and useful clarification on what we should probably be talking about when we ask whether Jesus existed.

Would you like to debate this sometime? On live video instead of this restricting format (moreso a discussion instead of a "debate")

Not really, because I'm not a historian. You'd be better-served seeking out a credentialed person, because all I can tell you is that the consensus among historians seems to be there existed a small handful of historical persons named Yeshua, so mysticism is a little weird by default.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/2/2016 6:24:11 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/8/2016 1:38:55 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

In the religion forum.

Discussing the historicity of people from antiquity is most certainly a suitable topic for a history thread.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,585
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10/2/2016 6:31:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/8/2016 8:40:29 AM, Stupidape wrote:
Did Jesus Christ exist, son of God or otherwise. Many believe Jesus is the son of God, others he was a false prophet, and a 3rd category is that he never existed at all.

What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

http://www.deism.com...

There's sufficient evidence remaining that makes it clear to me that Christ existed and that he had a huge influence while alive. There is the "gospel" accounts of course but also the writings of Josephus and various others who had no affinity for religion.

There's written evidence too of the apostles and their martyrdom, many of whom were tortured and executed yet remained steadfast in their conviction.

Various accounts exist from the time that document these events, few people stop to think what it requires to suffer brutal torture until death.

That these men were prepared to endure this and were recorded by non-Christian writers from the time is itself evidence.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,951
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10/3/2016 12:55:02 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
What do you think exists or not? If yes, Son of God or not?

Yes and no in that order.

I'd be surprised if the story of Jesus was completely baseless. I think it highly likely a man - called Jesus and from Nazareth - founded a somewhat heretical Judaic cult based on the apocalyptic vision of a new order where 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.
His activities and message irritated the Jewish religious establishment but he does not appear to have bothered the Roman occupiers to any great extent.

He probably was crucified at the behest of the Jewish priests.

However, his influence during his life time appears to be quite limited. Jospehus mentions him more or less in passing and does not present Jesus as any sort of pivotal figure, and as I said the Romans appear to have had little interest in him although they would be very concerned about any matter that impacted on public order.

I believe after Jesus' death his followers mythologised him, presenting him as the 'Son of God' and able to perform miracles and so on. That version of Christianity (built around the mythologised Jesus) succeeded outside Palestine, largely due to the efforts of Paul. However inside Palestine Christianity failed to thrive and Christianity became a Gentile-centric religion rather than a Judaic cult.