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EVIDENCE (for LM's opponents only)

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3/24/2009 10:04:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
For this debate:


Spider-Man gets free under a huge stone plug. It took She-Hulk AND him to lift it before.

Spider-Man supports the daily bugle:

Spider-Man knocks out the Hulk one on one.

Sorry, but I consider it a pain in the butt following the absurd character limit, thus shall consider this a means of citing myself during the debate. :D

I shall be using this thread in the future if a similar situation arises.

My opponent is free to use this thread as well if he comes across the same problem.
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4/3/2009 3:58:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago

NOTE: Spider-Man not only dodges his blasts fired with the intention of killing (and surfers blast move at light speed), not only were surfer's powers augmented thanks to the symbiote, but Spider-man manages to win the fight.
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2/2/2010 12:39:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago

1) My opponent starts by claiming that the fact that #17 was startled by Piccolo's quip is by no means proof that it was an accurate remark. I agree. It isn't decisive evidence, but this debate does not revolve around decisive evidence, but rather likelihood.

2) And yes, Piccolo was claimed to be even with #17, but only in terms of power. Battle skill is a completely different matter and punch throwing is in art within itself The various martial arts teach its students different means of doing this (the nature of punch throwing differs in boxing, tae kwon do and braziallian jujitsu).. Skill clearly plays a role here.

3) PRO attempts to place doubt on my reasoning by comparing it to Vegeta having boasted to Frieza about being a Super Saiyan. If anything, PRO's comparison strengthens my argument as Frieza was indeed worried about the possibility of a Super Saiyan emerging and out powering him (as we saw later on during his battle with Goku).

Equal Power


1 -2. In attempt to weaken my argument concerning Piccolo's body composition, PRO refers to #17 having given Piccolo the same kind of "serious blow" he did back during their first battle. Once again, PRO is offering an argument that only manages to boost mine. The SAME blow was made on Piccolo in two different battles. In one battle, it knocked him out cold. In the other battle, he got up like it was nothing. This proves that Piccolo's body is merely elastic and that receiving such blows in the first place is not an accurate means of gauging out how much damage Piccolo is taking.

A skill beyond design

If Piccolo's new found skills are merely the result of merging with Kami, it doesn't change the point (which is that #17 doesn't have an accurate understanding of Piccolo's fighting style no matter what information Dr. Gero gave him.

Regarding PRO's rebuttal to my assertion that Piccolo did not use enough ki, his point regarding control is heavily flawed. First, there is no proof that it took an abundant

amount of concentration for Goku to use two energy balls underwater. He created both ki balls with no effort and this was still a point in the battle at which both Goku and Frieza were STATED to not to be taking the fight seriously, so PRO's point fails here:

There is no reason for us to believe that putting more energy into each ki blast would be too difficult for Piccolo, much less under the circumstance of #17 doing nothing more than doging (hence no interference).

Next, Vegeta never decreased the power of his final flash. He merely made the attack smaller, as stated by Trunks himself:

This ends that train of PRO's thought.

The Author's favorite?

1) No, we've never seen Piccolo lose to fodder. Being NEARLY killed by Raditz doesn't mean anything. In the end, he beat Raditz. Not to mention that Raditz was the only BIG BAD villain on the scene at that point in time. We didn't know about Vegeta and Nappa until AFTER the battle and they weren't involved. As for being killed by Nappa, Vegeta hadn't yet been established as being more powerful than Nappa, not to mention Nappa was the center of attention. Nappa didn't gain fodder status until Goku showed up and made him look like nothing. As for the first meeting between Piccolo and #17, Cell was unknown to the readers at this point and was in no way involved.

2) Not at all. We've already seen Piccolo win under more adverse circumstances (Raditz being 3x stronger than him) and know that with the ability to duplicate himself and with him being equal in power to #17, victory is quite possible. I could just as easily counter PRO's rational conclusion to the fight by pointing out that Piccolo destroying #17 wouldn't allow Cell the opportunity to reach his perfect form, hence granting Vegeta the chance to be the hero of the saga, upon emerging from the hyperbolic time chamber. In other words, a lame ending to the saga.

3.) Zarbon besting Vegeta is irrelevant as this debate as well as my arguments concern Piccolo (never losing to anyone who is fodder at the time and being Toriyama's favorite character)

Battles that didn't revolve around who had superior strength:

In response to the statisticial analysis:


RE Notes:

The fact that #17 is easily distracted is damaging to PRO's case and better serves to strengthen my points regarding Piccolo successfully launching a lethal off guard attack on him. Whether or not #17 would have managed to evade this initial blows without being distracted is something no one but the author of DBZ himself knows.

PRO finds it interesting that Goku would be putting his faith in Vegeta and Trunks. I fail to see what is interesting. As I've pointed out in round two, even if Piccolo had beaten #17, #18, #16 and Cell would be next on the list for fighters he needed to deal with. There's no way a drained Piccolo would stand a chance. That said, I do find it interesting that PRO has neglected to mention that Goku also commented on PIccolo's newfound strength when consoling Gohan in terms of having nothign to worry about:



NOTE: PRO is strawmanning my argument. What I'm saying is that Piccolo didn't use all of his power in his hellzone grenade. This is on the basis that he is able to continue his battle with #17, only for there to be signs of physical stress MUCH LATER. I'm saying that if Piccolo were to have used all of his power in that attack, #17 would've died. This is basically because if the two are equal in power and #17 is doesn't have enough time to mount a defense which his max level of ki, the blast would naturally penetrate the barrier and blow him to smithereens.

PT 2

RE: NOTES: Irrelevant. #17 not using his full strength against Piccolo in the past had no impact on THIS fight.

The rest of his analysis on the fight doesn't offer any insight which hasn't already been mentioned during the debate. In fact, I had even pre-empted his argument about hit percentage by asserting that Piccolo had been sizing #17 shortly before his brief comments regarding #17's lack of fighting skill. This is the most rational explanation as the pace of the fight changes drastically after this instance, with #17 and Piccolo getting in an equal number of blows. He does argue that #17 gets in better blows during this round. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to respond to this, but don't see the point. You can look at the fight for yourself as it's clear in regards to the author attempting to make the point that the two are equal in power. It's not like we see #17 commenting about how poorly Piccolo kicks or fires ki blast.

There is one extra link he provides at the end regarding Piccolo using a technique that worked on Cell, but failed against #17. However, Cell was weaker than #17 at the time, so there's nothing out of the ordinary about this.