Total Posts:134|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

any vegetarians here on DDO?

lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 4:27:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Just as the title implies, are there?
If so, why are you vegetarian/vegan?
Personally, I have a moral stance against eating meat.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:02:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

I have a personal moral stance, based on the religious beliefs I hold.
also, things like Boca Burgers, Morning Star Burgers, nuts, and grains have a lot protein. and they are a lot less likely to cause heart disease.(:
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:07:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:02:42 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

I have a personal moral stance, based on the religious beliefs I hold.
also, things like Boca Burgers, Morning Star Burgers, nuts, and grains have a lot protein. and they are a lot less likely to cause heart disease.(:

Yes, of course there are plant alternatives, but the point is that meat has more protein and all meat has protein, whereas, only a few organisms in the plant kingdom do.

Health reasons are an excellent justification for vegetarianism. Morality is not. What does your religion say is morally wrong with eating meat?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:10:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:07:02 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:02:42 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

I have a personal moral stance, based on the religious beliefs I hold.
also, things like Boca Burgers, Morning Star Burgers, nuts, and grains have a lot protein. and they are a lot less likely to cause heart disease.(:

Yes, of course there are plant alternatives, but the point is that meat has more protein and all meat has protein, whereas, only a few organisms in the plant kingdom do.

Health reasons are an excellent justification for vegetarianism. Morality is not. What does your religion say is morally wrong with eating meat?

Well, for one, I just find the thought of eating meat repulsive.
also, I am pagan, and so although we can form a lot of our own beliefs, I personally believe in the thought of reincarnation, and I also have a strong respect for the earth. So, I am sure you can see why I choose not to eat meat. (:
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:24:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:27:39 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
Just as the title implies, are there?
If so, why are you vegetarian/vegan?
Personally, I have a moral stance against eating meat.
Maybe you can read this and touch upon a few points? http://www.debate.org...

I argued for meat eating!
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:31:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:24:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:27:39 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
Just as the title implies, are there?
If so, why are you vegetarian/vegan?
Personally, I have a moral stance against eating meat.
Maybe you can read this and touch upon a few points? http://www.debate.org...

I argued for meat eating!

I think you did very well, but ask a meat eater to look at it for you. lol
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:35:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

You're really just saying "humans have always ate meat" and then posting the ad hoc justification that "morality is designed upon nature." Do you really believe this? Humans have tortured, raped, and murdered since the beginning of human history as well.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:39:40 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:35:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

You're really just saying "humans have always ate meat" and then posting the ad hoc justification that "morality is designed upon nature." Do you really believe this? Humans have tortured, raped, and murdered since the beginning of human history as well.

Now you know that comment is not fair. What I said was that protein was necessary to the human diet and nutrition and meat was a way of getting it. I never said that "humans have always eaten meat" so we shouldn't stop now.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:40:08 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:35:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

You're really just saying "humans have always ate meat" and then posting the ad hoc justification that "morality is designed upon nature." Do you really believe this? Humans have tortured, raped, and murdered since the beginning of human history as well.

I love you, OMGJustin
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:41:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.


So murder, extermination, rape, adultery, and so on are moral?
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
Man-is-good
Posts: 6,871
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:42:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?

Define what you think is part of human nature, ike...
"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto." --Terence

"I believe that the mind can be permanently profaned by the habit of attending to trivial things, so that all our thoughts shall be tinged with triviality."--Thoreau
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:43:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:42:23 PM, Man-is-good wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?

Define what you think is part of human nature, ike...

I know where arguing with you has led me in the past. I'd rather just let Ore_Ele and OMG show me the error of my ways.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:43:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Anyway, the question still has not been answered. Personally, I'm not a vegitarian. After listening to a powerful and completely factual song by the Arrogant Worms, I don't see how anyone can be okay with killing plants.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:46:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?

Yes. It is a natural instinct to want to kill you competitors. This applies to all animals, including humans. It is also a natural instinct to spread your genetic makeup. This also applies to all animals, including humans.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:48:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:31:08 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:24:07 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:27:39 PM, lotus_flower wrote:
Just as the title implies, are there?
If so, why are you vegetarian/vegan?
Personally, I have a moral stance against eating meat.
Maybe you can read this and touch upon a few points? http://www.debate.org...

I argued for meat eating!

I think you did very well, but ask a meat eater to look at it for you. lol
Thanks, but I meant: what is your position as a vegetarian? What do you say to the fact that plants experience emotions?
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:50:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:46:05 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?

Yes. It is a natural instinct to want to kill you competitors. This applies to all animals, including humans. It is also a natural instinct to spread your genetic makeup. This also applies to all animals, including humans.

I thought morality was subjective and temporary. Wouldn't the moral understanding of the times when man was less intelligent permit him to do such things?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:56:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:50:22 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:46:05 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:40:05 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:39:36 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

So murder and rape are moral, got it.

its human nature to rape and murder people?

Yes. It is a natural instinct to want to kill you competitors. This applies to all animals, including humans. It is also a natural instinct to spread your genetic makeup. This also applies to all animals, including humans.

I thought morality was subjective and temporary. Wouldn't the moral understanding of the times when man was less intelligent permit him to do such things?

Morality is subjective, human nature and natural instincts are not.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 5:59:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
MMM.. Bacon! :o)

however...

I understand not wanting to cause piggies discomfort...

But....

ok, so first lets talk about bugs... and how they're like computers.

and then Birds.. and how they're like evil, uncaring, velociraptors.

now.. Birds feel simple pain probably in a way somewhat similar to we do.. but they don't really have the same kind of psychological discomfort that we do.

and they're physical pain, if you care about it.. can be reduced dramatically to the point of eliminating it by quickly killing the things.

and, yeah.. they may be uncomfortable in some fashion.. like Nutsy birds.. but I don't care about birds being freaked out.. they're like trapped Velociraptors.. and I don't care.

now.. mammals who seem to have similar feelings as we do.. I can get kind of empathetic towards...
and can understand you not wanting to be in uncomfortable and distressing situations.

There I can see giving them some rights as to Not-crazy-making/psychologically distressing living conditions... but so long as you reduce the pain to pretty much nil :/ I don't see why not kill/eat'em... specially bacon :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:00:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:56:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Morality is subjective, human nature and natural instincts are not.

Okay. So if morality is subjective, that means we can't apply modern moral standards to the instincts of human beings when we were less evolved. Unless, are you saying that we still have these instincts for rape and murder? I'd like to see some sources on that. I haven't heard of such a thing.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:00:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:39:40 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:35:38 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

You're really just saying "humans have always ate meat" and then posting the ad hoc justification that "morality is designed upon nature." Do you really believe this? Humans have tortured, raped, and murdered since the beginning of human history as well.

Now you know that comment is not fair. What I said was that protein was necessary to the human diet and nutrition and meat was a way of getting it. I never said that "humans have always eaten meat" so we shouldn't stop now.

Well what else is "human nature" if not just our observations on universal elements of history?

Besides, there are other forms of protein and vegetarians are not an unhealthy group. You can get protein from eating humans, so I would be careful about listing the acquisition of protein as some universal good.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:08:28 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 6:00:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:56:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Morality is subjective, human nature and natural instincts are not.

Okay. So if morality is subjective, that means we can't apply modern moral standards to the instincts of human beings when we were less evolved. Unless, are you saying that we still have these instincts for rape and murder? I'd like to see some sources on that. I haven't heard of such a thing.

Do you really need a source that mankind instinctually experiences anger and lust? Or that when you get angry enough you may have an urge to kill someone?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:09:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 6:08:28 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 9/30/2011 6:00:04 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/30/2011 5:56:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Morality is subjective, human nature and natural instincts are not.

Okay. So if morality is subjective, that means we can't apply modern moral standards to the instincts of human beings when we were less evolved. Unless, are you saying that we still have these instincts for rape and murder? I'd like to see some sources on that. I haven't heard of such a thing.

Do you really need a source that mankind instinctually experiences anger and lust? Or that when you get angry enough you may have an urge to kill someone?

I don't know. I guess I'm wrong.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:12:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

X is natural therefore X is moral? There's an aptly named fallacy just for that type of argument.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:13:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 6:12:03 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

X is natural therefore X is moral? There's an aptly named fallacy just for that type of argument.
Appeal to nature.

Anyone got answer to my question?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:15:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 6:12:03 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 9/30/2011 4:58:17 PM, 000ike wrote:
No. Protein is a necessity in the human diet. There is prolific abundance of protein in animal products and meat. Naturally, human beings will eat meat. Human nature cannot be immoral, for morality is designed upon nature.

X is natural therefore X is moral? There's an aptly named fallacy just for that type of argument.

I don't think the fallacy is based on morals, but superiority. That because something is natural, it is good for you. If you believe morals are subjective, you can subjectively choose to base your morals on nature. In which case there is no fallacy.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:16:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yeah, each individual eating meat probably causes a corresponding small but significant increase in animal suffering. I personally try to cut down my meat consumption, but I don't refuse to eat it when other people make dinner or anything. I think we should invest in technologies to grow meat directly, then it wouldn't be a problem, and the process would probably be far more efficient anyway.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/30/2011 6:18:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 9/30/2011 5:48:44 PM, Mirza wrote:
What do you say to the fact that plants experience emotions?

That they don't.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."