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What language do deaf, blind people think in?

blackhawk1331
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10/31/2011 5:04:43 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Exactly as the post says.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
Lickdafoot
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10/31/2011 5:16:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:04:43 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
Exactly as the post says.

well they probably think in whatever form they perceive the world around them, such as vibrations or movements. although i don't know. im just speculating.
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000ike
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10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Man-is-good
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10/31/2011 5:27:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

Interesting, though the OP did not specify if they were born deaf or blind.
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FREEDO
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10/31/2011 5:49:09 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
If they were born deaf and blind they would probably think in touch.

If they were born without any senses then they would essentially be brain dead.
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blackhawk1331
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10/31/2011 6:04:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

Born deaf and blind. I set it up that way because the circumstances you put out are obvious answers.
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
000ike
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10/31/2011 6:06:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 6:04:51 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

Born deaf and blind. I set it up that way because the circumstances you put out are obvious answers.

Born deaf and blind are also obvious answers, which I gave you
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
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10/31/2011 6:07:49 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 6:06:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/31/2011 6:04:51 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

Born deaf and blind. I set it up that way because the circumstances you put out are obvious answers.

Born deaf and blind are also obvious answers, which I gave you

wait, nevermind, I didn't know you meant deaf AND blind
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
blackhawk1331
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10/31/2011 10:17:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 6:07:49 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/31/2011 6:06:46 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 10/31/2011 6:04:51 PM, blackhawk1331 wrote:
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

Born deaf and blind. I set it up that way because the circumstances you put out are obvious answers.

Born deaf and blind are also obvious answers, which I gave you

wait, nevermind, I didn't know you meant deaf AND blind

It says deaf and blind...
Because you said it was a waste, numb nuts. - Drafter

So fvck you. :) - TV

Use prima facie correctly or not at all. - Noumena
lotus_flower
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11/1/2011 8:40:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think about this when I am high. lol
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gerrandesquire
Posts: 1,258
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11/2/2011 1:13:40 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 10/31/2011 5:25:57 PM, 000ike wrote:
well, if one was born deaf, then he thinks in sign language. If one was born blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. If one BECAME deaf, he thinks in whatever language he spoke, and if one BECAME blind, he thinks in whatever language he speaks. Pretty linear question

There are deaf people who speak. And they speak in the language taught to them, similar to the way a normal person speaks, though less clearly. They EXPRESS themselves in sign language, if that is what is taught to them. Usually they do so while speaking with other deaf people, with normal ones, they try to speak, and do express themselves with some effort.
corynski
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11/2/2011 6:11:32 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Greetings
Deaf people think in pictures, as do some autistic children I've been told. I have a deaf son and have observed this process. It requires considerable effort for the deaf to learn english, but sign language is their first and strongest language. No idea about the blind.

There is an excellent book by Temple Grandin titled 'Thinking in Pictures'. She is a fascinating autistic woman who became a considerable success designing more humane animal slaughter facilities.
CosmicAlfonzo
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11/2/2011 6:13:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
To be completely honest, I don't even think in a spoken language. Sometimes I do, but most of the time it is something a little bit more abstract.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
corynski
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11/2/2011 6:20:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I googled Temple Grandin and here are her own thoughts:

THINKING IN PICTURES
with 2006 Updates from the Expanded Edition

Chapter 1: Autism and Visual Thought
Dr. Temple Grandin

I THINK IN PICTURES. Words are like a second language to me. I translate both spoken and written words into full-color movies, complete with sound, which run like a VCR tape in my head. When somebody speaks to me, his words are instantly translated into pictures. Language-based thinkers often find this phenomenon difficult to understand, but in my job as an equipment designer for the livestock industry, visual thinking is a tremendous advantage.
Visual thinking has enabled me to build entire systems in my imagination. During my career I have designed all kinds of equipment, ranging from corrals for handling cattle on ranches to systems for handling cattle and hogs during veterinary procedures and slaughter. I have worked for many major livestock companies. In fact, one third of the cattle and hogs in the United States are handled in equipment I have designed. Some of the people I've worked for don't even know that their systems were designed by someone with autism. I value my ability to think visually, and I would never want to lose it.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/2/2011 8:55:55 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:13:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be completely honest, I don't even think in a spoken language. Sometimes I do, but most of the time it is something a little bit more abstract.

It is like a cross between words and not...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/2/2011 8:56:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:20:33 PM, corynski wrote:
I googled Temple Grandin and here are her own thoughts:

THINKING IN PICTURES
with 2006 Updates from the Expanded Edition

Chapter 1: Autism and Visual Thought
Dr. Temple Grandin

I THINK IN PICTURES. Words are like a second language to me. I translate both spoken and written words into full-color movies, complete with sound, which run like a VCR tape in my head. When somebody speaks to me, his words are instantly translated into pictures. Language-based thinkers often find this phenomenon difficult to understand, but in my job as an equipment designer for the livestock industry, visual thinking is a tremendous advantage.
Visual thinking has enabled me to build entire systems in my imagination. During my career I have designed all kinds of equipment, ranging from corrals for handling cattle on ranches to systems for handling cattle and hogs during veterinary procedures and slaughter. I have worked for many major livestock companies. In fact, one third of the cattle and hogs in the United States are handled in equipment I have designed. Some of the people I've worked for don't even know that their systems were designed by someone with autism. I value my ability to think visually, and I would never want to lose it.

I love stuff like this, amazing.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Ragnar_Rahl
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11/2/2011 9:07:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 6:13:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be completely honest, I don't even think in a spoken language. Sometimes I do, but most of the time it is something a little bit more abstract.

Drug-related?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
CosmicAlfonzo
Posts: 5,955
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11/2/2011 9:20:03 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/2/2011 9:07:33 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/2/2011 6:13:14 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
To be completely honest, I don't even think in a spoken language. Sometimes I do, but most of the time it is something a little bit more abstract.

Drug-related?

I smoke cigarettes, I drink lots of coffee. Other than that, I'll drink every so often.

I'm not a drug user, nor do I care for drug users. Too many people use drugs an an excuse to be arsewankers.
Official "High Priest of Secular Affairs and Transient Distributor of Sonic Apple Seeds relating to the Reptilian Division of Paperwork Immoliation" of The FREEDO Bureaucracy, a DDO branch of the Erisian Front, a subdivision of the Discordian Back, a Limb of the Illuminatian Cosmic Utensil Corp
gerrandesquire
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11/3/2011 6:38:16 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Corynski, if you dont mind me asking, what is the loss percentage of you son? My sister has a profound hearing loss, and she speaks Hindi ( which is the local language) fine. I mean, I dont think they should be taught sign language. Totally against deaf culture.
corynski
Posts: 32
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11/3/2011 7:25:25 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Hello Gerrandesquire

My son Willy was a rubella (German measles) baby, and suffers maybe around 90% loss, mostly in the high range, and he can hear, sort of, things like earthmoving machines and other loud, low noises. And he can hear a little more with a hearing aid.

I don't know what to say about your sister, did you grow up with her? She must have had some special training. When you say 'fine', how different is her speech from a hearing person?

My impression is that the deaf will naturally use signs as they grow up, and it would be difficult to stop them from using signs. And before long I noticed a kind of slang was also being used, which accounts for the differences in ASL across the country.

Willy attended the Florida School for the Deaf and Blind, in Jacksonville, Fl, and rebelled early. Now at 39 his emails are often impossible to know what he is trying to say. And I remember his early phone conversations with friends, and I'll bet that much of the time they actually didn't know what the other was trying to say. Willy will learn individual words, but the structure of english has eluded him, all that stuff we learned by rote in the early school years. At FSDB there were considerable disciplinary problems constantly on the front burners, and the teachers spent a lot of time maintaining order in the classroom.

You say you're totally against deaf culture? I've seen it both ways and have concluded that whatever works best for each individual is best. Whatever the deaf individual is happy with.
gerrandesquire
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11/3/2011 8:13:20 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
That's interesting. I've been thinking on having a debate with someone on the topic of deaf culture... Are you interested?

My sister just turned 20, and started her college this year. She did start with a special school, uptill 1st grade, and then shifted to a normal school. I am not going to pretend it wasn't difficult, she hated this school, but that was I guess because the school was not that big(my parents thought this would ensure individual attention, but it backfired). Her highschool was in her words, awesome. (it was bigger, more reputed, people in such schools are nicer, and she's still friends with them)

anyway, she did attend speech therapy till sixth grade, and she's a lot better than a lot of people (almost normal, able to conduct normal life, everyone understands her, and that is why i feel not allowing her to learn sign language was a good decision).

She still can't use a phone though, but a girl in her college can, so that's something that motivates her.

And yeah, fine in the sense everyone can understand her, shopkeepers, bus conductors, everyone. Some sometimes think she's a tourist learning Hindi, so you can draw a parallel, i guess.
gerrandesquire
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11/3/2011 8:29:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I get the thing about deaf culture, i went to her college one day, and they had this whole table for D and D category, on one end were children communicating in only sign language, like stories and laughing, like their own little world. And my sister and two of her friends on the far end of the table, talking to each other and the normal people too were talking to them.

I was a little, shocked, to say the least, on learning the group system and all, but not to blame the normal ones, coz you can't force friendship.

But in the long run, she d have to talk to normal people, and she's in a good position to do that. However, i do understand the appeal of deaf culture, basically it boils down to what you value more, happiness or independence. But then its not that simple, because independence does bring happiness, and the happiness gained by deaf culture is a little - closed, if you know what i mean, so I wonder if there is some objective answer.

I would be a compelling debate, though.
corynski
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11/3/2011 9:06:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Greetings Aayushi

My first thoughts are of the tremendous familial and cultural differences that likely exist between your sister's experience and my son Willy's. Especially the difference regarding the amount of freedom that each possesses. Willy has considerable freedom, and this includes the freedom to not do as his elders council him, as well as the freedom to fail, and his choice to date has been to not learn the structure of the english language. He is proficient in ASL, American Sign Language, but still can only communicate sporadically with other hearing people.

Let me digress briefly, and say that my college work was in anthropology at the University of California at Berkeley, where I studied something your country and its customs. That said, I can also say I likely know little of your family's particular culture, as I know there are many.

One difference likely would stand out, and that is the amount of anger and rebellion that Willy exhibited as he grew up. His anger at being deaf knew no bounds, and it was exhibited by his explosive anger. It doesn't sound like your sister rebelled, but rather followed the advice of others and now is experiencing the benefits of it. Willy forefeitted that advice and is paying the penalty for it now. He refused to do the hard work then for later rewards, and now he must live with that decision.

In this situation I think Willy's freedom should have been forfeitted, and he should have been forced to learn english, but alas, it did not happen. And your sister will realize the fruits of her labors for the rest of her life.

Charley
gerrandesquire
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11/3/2011 9:45:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yeah that is another good point, i did not consider cultural differences. She didn't like her school, at all, but school wasn't considered a choice, so that is something different.

This doesn't mean that she's going to have it easy, and I do feel she should interact with people her type, and with normal people too.

Thank you so much, it feels good talking to someone with similar experiences, it helps a lot. And i apologise if any of my questions were rude or made you uncomfortable.
corynski
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11/3/2011 2:05:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Greetings

The deaf have a very hard path I think. Willy looks like any other boy, but his handicap makes life very difficult for him. Other people are often not comfortable around him, and I notice he is spending more time alone now.

For some reason he can't understand how important language is, and that he must learn language structure so he can work with other people. He completed an automotive technical school course, but of course that work requires communication with many people.

Anyway, I'm off topic. I think you would like the book by Temple Grandin, she is an impressive woman. It takes considerable courage to do as well as she has with such a handicap.

I'm not sure how a debate regarding deafness would come off.

charley
gerrandesquire
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11/4/2011 1:35:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 11/3/2011 2:05:15 PM, corynski wrote:
Greetings

The deaf have a very hard path I think. Willy looks like any other boy, but his handicap makes life very difficult for him. Other people are often not comfortable around him, and I notice he is spending more time alone now.

Yes, that is true. My sister too faced the same problem, a lot of things we take for granted have to be taught to them. I had to teach her how to pronounce various swear words so that she isn't dissed in the face when she uses them on someone XD

For some reason he can't understand how important language is, and that he must learn language structure so he can work with other people. He completed an automotive technical school course, but of course that work requires communication with many people.

That's impressive, if he completed a technical course, he must be really talented. Vibha couldn't make sense of maths or physics or anything, she opted for humanities and is now persuing bachelor of fine arts, least interaction.

Anyway, I'm off topic. I think you would like the book by Temple Grandin, she is an impressive woman. It takes considerable courage to do as well as she has with such a handicap.

I would certainly read it.

I'm not sure how a debate regarding deafness would come off.

Yeah no problem. I can see you aren't comfortable with the idea, it doesn't matter.