Total Posts:25|Showing Posts:1-25
Jump to topic:

would you be proud or ashamed?

thett3
Posts: 14,348
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2011 10:12:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
A good friend of mine was raised by adopted parents, but he's recently (a couple months ago) come into contact with his biological father, and today he found out that both his grandfather (fathers father) and maternal great grandfather served in the Wehrmacht during WWII..my question is, if you received information like this would you be proud of your fore-fathers for serving their race and country, or would you be ashamed that they served under a flag of evil, murder, and war?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2011 10:21:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'd personally be proud. Now if my grandfathers fought in the SS, now that would call for being ashamed. However, the German army was one of the best armies in the world at the time, so seeing how your friend's grandfathers were some of the best fighters, I think he should be proud of it.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2011 10:24:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Neither. I would be shocked, and I'd think it was cool, but in no way proud of them. Shame is the wrong reaction in my opinion, one should not feel shame over something that is out of his control.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
imabench
Posts: 21,219
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2011 10:52:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would be horrified. Mostly because I have blonde hair, blue eyes, and live in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. If i found out that my forefathers did serve in WWII on the German side I would go into hiding immediately...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 10:21:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:12:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
A good friend of mine was raised by adopted parents, but he's recently (a couple months ago) come into contact with his biological father, and today he found out that both his grandfather (fathers father) and maternal great grandfather served in the Wehrmacht during WWII..my question is, if you received information like this would you be proud of your fore-fathers for serving their race and country, or would you be ashamed that they served under a flag of evil, murder, and war?:

It would honestly depend on the level of their crimes. If they were a grunt in the Wehrmacht, many were intentionally lied to and fed propaganda. In that instance, they should be pardoned. However, if they were commanders who knowingly and approvingly led homosexuals, gyspies, and Jews to their deaths then, if still alive, they should stand trial for their war crimes.

Serving in the Nazi regime doesn't de facto make you a Jew assassin. The Nazi ranks had many double agents, many of whom used their status to get close enough to assassinate Hitler and his henchmen.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
quarterexchange
Posts: 1,549
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 10:45:19 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would be proud. It's not as if they were SS troops working in the camps. They sound like they were your average infantrymen in the German Army. By and large, few people knew about the Holocaust and that includes the majority of German civilians and servicemen who were fighting abroad. I wouldn't discredit them as being courageous individuals who should be admired simply because they were on the wrong side.
I don't discriminate....I hate everybody.
thett3
Posts: 14,348
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 11:10:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm inclined to agree with those saying they would be proud. This really reminds me of an encounter I had with a German veteran when I was 8 (?).

My Father and Grandfather and I were at some carnival or festival or something, and we started talking to this old man, I dont even remember what about but it was just miscellaneous stuff I suppose. Because of the mans thick German accent, my Grandfather (who was raised Jewish and fought on the American side during the war) told him how he was stationed in Germany after the war, and the man remarked that they were on opposite sides. We were a bit shocked and my father asked him if he would fight the war again if he had the chance. The man said that if he could go back, he would've never surrendered to the Americans, but would've fled back to Berlin, fought the red army to the end, and died there on the Reichstag. He said that he loved life, but he loved his country and people more, and that abandoning it to the Red army when he still could've fought was his lifes greatest shame.

Grandfather spat on him for his lack of remorse, but Father said he was a man of honor to be respected.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 11:20:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm personally Jewish, but I would be proud.

As long as he wasn't stationed at any death camps, honourably fighting of your country, regardless of country, I find to deserve the utmost respect.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 12:01:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 11:20:42 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'm personally Jewish, but I would be proud.

As long as he wasn't stationed at any death camps, honourably fighting of your country, regardless of country, I find to deserve the utmost respect.

Are you out of your mind? SS were fanatically committed to Hitler and committed countless atrocities in Russia and the occupied territories. You got to get a grip, bro. Seriously, you're Jewish and you'd be proud to have a grandfather that was in the SS?

My thought: There's no rational reason to be proud or ashamed of circumstances that you were born into. You had no control over them and anyone who tries to take credit for their ancestor's sacrifices or accomplishments is pretty questionable in my book. I'd draw a sharp distinction between Wehrmacht and SS. Wehrmacht was many draftees who held various positions pro or anti-Nazi and engaged mostly in simply the military struggle. The SS were Hitler's personal guard; they were fervent Nazis who despite an extraordinary reputation as fighters have the capacity to engage in the systematic murder of civilians. The verdict is I couldn't draw immediate conclusions over the wehrmacht soldier, but if he was SS I would be extremely weary unless he had made serious amends.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 2:46:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 12:01:33 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
At 12/4/2011 11:20:42 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
I'm personally Jewish, but I would be proud.

As long as he wasn't stationed at any death camps, honourably fighting of your country, regardless of country, I find to deserve the utmost respect.

Are you out of your mind? SS were fanatically committed to Hitler and committed countless atrocities in Russia and the occupied territories. You got to get a grip, bro. Seriously, you're Jewish and you'd be proud to have a grandfather that was in the SS?

No, not the SS. But Thett said Wehrmacht. There is a difference. Wehrmacht were simply the soldiers who were brainwashed by the country. They were not the ones committing the awful crimes.
My thought: There's no rational reason to be proud or ashamed of circumstances that you were born into. You had no control over them and anyone who tries to take credit for their ancestor's sacrifices or accomplishments is pretty questionable in my book. I'd draw a sharp distinction between Wehrmacht and SS. Wehrmacht was many draftees who held various positions pro or anti-Nazi and engaged mostly in simply the military struggle. The SS were Hitler's personal guard; they were fervent Nazis who despite an extraordinary reputation as fighters have the capacity to engage in the systematic murder of civilians. The verdict is I couldn't draw immediate conclusions over the wehrmacht soldier, but if he was SS I would be extremely weary unless he had made serious amends.

Exactly. I wouldn't be proud of SS, but Wehrmacht is still plausible.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 2:54:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Exactly. I wouldn't be proud of SS, but Wehrmacht is still plausible.

It's still a little bizarre to hear a Jew claim he would be proud if theoretically his grandfather fought in the German army in WWII. Have you told any of your friends this? My grandfather fought against the Nazis in a partisan group, and while I'm grateful that he did it - I don't see this as something I gain from or adds to my self-esteem in any meaningful way.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 3:14:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/4/2011 2:54:07 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Exactly. I wouldn't be proud of SS, but Wehrmacht is still plausible.

It's still a little bizarre to hear a Jew claim he would be proud if theoretically his grandfather fought in the German army in WWII. Have you told any of your friends this? My grandfather fought against the Nazis in a partisan group, and while I'm grateful that he did it - I don't see this as something I gain from or adds to my self-esteem in any meaningful way.

Its not the fact that I would be proud of him.

I guess "respect" would be the correct word.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2011 3:20:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I probably wouldn't care either way. We're generations apart, after all.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/5/2011 8:49:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Holding to my belief that evil is relative, I feel that I would be indifferent to it. they fought for what they thought was right.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2011 6:16:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:12:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
A good friend of mine was raised by adopted parents, but he's recently (a couple months ago) come into contact with his biological father, and today he found out that both his grandfather (fathers father) and maternal great grandfather served in the Wehrmacht during WWII..my question is, if you received information like this would you be proud of your fore-fathers for serving their race and country, or would you be ashamed that they served under a flag of evil, murder, and war?

My Grandfather fought as an American in world war II and was at Guadalcanal. I'm proud of that.
If I found out my Grandad was a German I would be neither proud or ashamed.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Veridas
Posts: 733
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2011 6:38:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:12:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
A good friend of mine was raised by adopted parents, but he's recently (a couple months ago) come into contact with his biological father, and today he found out that both his grandfather (fathers father) and maternal great grandfather served in the Wehrmacht during WWII..my question is, if you received information like this would you be proud of your fore-fathers for serving their race and country, or would you be ashamed that they served under a flag of evil, murder, and war?

The question requires the consideration of several factors.

1: Were the men of German Nationality at birth?

2: WHat regiment, corps or otherwise what duties did they perform?

3: Did they enlist or were they conscripted?

4: Were they involved actively or passively in what we now know as German war crimes?

and 5: What was their reaction to Germany's defeat?

1 is important because Germany at the time was becoming increasingly nationalistic. The treaty of Verssailes was a treaty that more or les kneecapped any future German attempt at economic or military prosperity. Whether a nazi or not, I blame no German at the time for being proud their country as it clawed back power and opportunity on the world stage.

2: vast majority of military personnel are dedicated towards noncombat operations. The guy that drives the truck full of shells from the supply plane to the armoury would be as much a Wehrmact as the guy that shot that guy in Saving Private Ryan. While the ratio was less so seventy years ago, the fact that they were part of the army doesn't mean they went around screaming Sieg Heil while machinegunning orphaned kittens with terminal illnesses...all named "Timmy"

3: Germany did, especially in the latter stages of the war, enforce conscription. There's a big moral difference between volunteering and being picked out by the state, I shouldn't even need to explain this one.

4: Most Wehrmacht soldiers individually would not have been terribly interested in or involved in what we now know were ongoing war crimes behind the scenes of the Nazi leadership. Having said that, those concentration camps needed guards. On the flipside, they may have just been a guard at a POW camp, which although not comfortable were probably more morally obligated towards, you know, not murdering their inhabitants.

5: Sadly some people refuse to recognise the defeat of Germany as total or all-encompassing. While that kind of reaction is not necessary to lose pride, context is everything. If they were glad the fighting was done while destute or disappointed in their defeat then I see very little wrong, lord knows Germany fought well. If they carry bitterness about the defeat even now, despite our knowledge of German war crimes which the Wehrmacht on the front lines were fighting to keep secret then it could speak of a larger obsession.

Overall I'm not gonna assume anything about these two people that I will never meet, however, I'm gonna take a stab at them just being two guys in a country and situation where finding work was hard and they knew the army was always recruiting. The fact that they were father and son implies that either of them was old or the other was young which in turn could imply that one of them if not both were conscripted, however that in itself is a plus point thanks to hindsight.

If it were me then I'd probably not let their past colour my judgement of them. Having said that, I hate my dad.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
rogue
Posts: 2,325
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/8/2011 9:24:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I wouldn't necessarily be proud but I wouldn't be ashamed. A lot of German soldiers didn't know the atrocities that were going on, plus they were probably really scared.
tyler90az
Posts: 971
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2011 1:51:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:12:38 PM, thett3 wrote:
A good friend of mine was raised by adopted parents, but he's recently (a couple months ago) come into contact with his biological father, and today he found out that both his grandfather (fathers father) and maternal great grandfather served in the Wehrmacht during WWII..my question is, if you received information like this would you be proud of your fore-fathers for serving their race and country, or would you be ashamed that they served under a flag of evil, murder, and war?

If he still bragged about the murders, I would be ashamed. However, if he recognizes it as a great tragedy, I would be proud. The fact that he served his country is honorable, it is not his fault what happened, he had to survive.
Today we begin in earnest the work of making sure that the world we leave our children is just a little bit better than the one we inhabit today. - President Obama
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2011 10:10:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/3/2011 10:24:01 PM, 000ike wrote:
Neither. I would be shocked, and I'd think it was cool, but in no way proud of them. Shame is the wrong reaction in my opinion, one should not feel shame over something that is out of his control.

This
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2011 10:13:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My grandfather was on the american side.
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
Calvincambridge
Posts: 1,141
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2011 10:14:00 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
My ancestors are German but lived in Germany during the 1st German empire.
Trying to figure out women is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube with missing pieces. While blind. And on fire. And being shot.-Agent_Orange
Dude. Shades
That is all.- Thaddeus Rivers
One thing that isn't a joke though is the fact that woman are computers.Some buttons you can press and it'l work fine, but if you push the wrong one you'll get the blue screen of death.
silly, thett. girls are only good for sex. being friends with a female is of no value.-darkkermit
lotus_flower
Posts: 454
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2011 8:38:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2011 7:54:11 AM, badger wrote:
i would immeadiately set to growing a hitler moustache and would join a neo-nazi group...

^^ this. lol
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
- Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything
*******************************************************
http://www.bbc.co.uk...
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2011 11:22:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Despite being portrayed as almost universally brutal; bloodthirsty; callous; cruel; pitiless and ruthless in films such as Schindler's List, Germans are, in fact, no more or less heartless than any other group of people, so no reason to be ashamed.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
badger
Posts: 11,793
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2011 11:55:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/14/2011 11:22:10 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Despite being portrayed as almost universally brutal; bloodthirsty; callous; cruel; pitiless and ruthless in films such as Schindler's List, Germans are, in fact, no more or less heartless than any other group of people, so no reason to be ashamed.

brian! i was thinking you were after dying or something... glad to see you alive! and yeah they're a grand friendly bunch in my experience... my trade is flooded with them... proud fvckers though... my boss made a joke to one of them one day, that hitler was gas man, "gas" being what's probably just irish slang for funny... the dude wasn't too happy about it lol... maybe he didn't get that it was a joke though, i dunno... might've made a difference... i suppose otherwise it would've come across as just a straight dig at his nation...
signature