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This is amazing.

GodSands
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6/10/2009 3:55:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
What do you make of this?

Today (Wednesday) and last Wednesday me and 7 others Christian friends all went evangilising in the town centre today from about 10:30 to 11:45. Last Wednesday we reached out to 22 people, today we reached out to 39 which equals 61. We divided our selves into groups of two. 61 did our servay altogether. Isaiah 61 reads, "Set the free the captives."

Coincidence or a message from God? Please comment and add your personal thoughts.
Volkov
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6/10/2009 4:38:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Coincidence, because you never figured that "divide ourselves into groups of 2" into your little Biblical equation, did you? Did you?
GodSands
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6/10/2009 4:46:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 6/10/2009 4:38:40 PM, Volkov wrote:
Coincidence, because you never figured that "divide ourselves into groups of 2" into your little Biblical equation, did you? Did you?

Say again?
AnimeFanTony
Posts: 1,129
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6/10/2009 4:49:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
That is pretty cool yo.
Ownership of this account has been transferred from JCMT to I-am-a-panda.
Updates of the next JCMT puppet account pending.
Volkov
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6/10/2009 4:55:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It is a coincidence. You're just trying to fit facts together to prove something. There is nothing pointing towards Isiah, yet you assume that God is pointing towards Isiah 61. You don't factor in the amount of people you had volunteering for you, the number of groups you split up in to, etc etc etc.

If God was really going to 'send you a message', he wouldn't do it in such an obscure way. All you do is fit random facts together, look through your Bible until you find the right passage, and claim it was a message. Seriously.
BigMac
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6/10/2009 4:56:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
ok, im not trying to diminish your obviously very possible connection, seeing as i myself am a devout catholic who goes to church every sunday and often does Adoration, but this is a debating site.

Number coincidences pertaining to 9/11:

1) New York City has 11 letters.

2) Afghanistan has 11 letters.

3) Ramsin Yuseb (The terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in 1993) has 11 letters.

4) George W. Bush has 11 letters.

This could be a mere coincidence, but it gets more interesting.

5) New York is the 11th State in the United States.

6) The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight 11.

7) Flight 11 which hit the Trade Center had 92 passengers onboard. 9+2=11.

8) Flight 77 which also hit the Trade Center had 65 passengers onboard. 6+5=11.

9) The tradegy was on September 11, or 9/11. 9+1+1=11.

10) The date is the same as the U.S. Emergency number. 911.

Sheer coincedence, read on and decide for yourself.

11) The total number of passengers on the hijacked planes was 254. 2+5+4=11.

12) September 11 is the 254th day of the calender year. Again 2+5+4=11.

13) The Madrid, Spain bombings took place on 3/11/2004. 3+1+1+2+4=11.

14) The Madrid, Spain bombings took place 911 days after the attacks on the Twin Towers.
I'm back.
Xer
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6/10/2009 4:59:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 3:55:52 PM, GodSands wrote:
What do you make of this?

Today (Wednesday) and last Wednesday me and 7 others Christian friends all went evangilising in the town centre today from about 10:30 to 11:45. Last Wednesday we reached out to 22 people, today we reached out to 39 which equals 61. We divided our selves into groups of two. 61 did our servay altogether. Isaiah 61 reads, "Set the free the captives."

Coincidence or a message from God? Please comment and add your personal thoughts.

Coincedence.

-You took one quote out of a whole chapter and made it somehow relate.

-And how does "Set the free the captives" relate to surveys?
Xer
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6/10/2009 5:10:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
9/11 Conspiracy (South Park Edition)

Cartman: So now, the inevitable question: if terrorists didn't cause 9/11, who did? [he begins to use his fingers to to show the numbers as he says them] Remember that there are in fact two towers. Two minus one is one; one one - 11; two minus one is one; one one, and there are nine members on Silverstein's board of directors. That's nine-one-one. Nine-eleven. And take 2 - 1 + 9/11 and you get 12, which leads us all to the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. [click. Kyle now appears superimposed on the 9/11 picture already onscreen].Kyle!

Kyle: Me??

Cartman: Twelve contains the numbers one and two, just like the toilet yesterday where somebody went number two instead of number one! Add one and two with 911 and you get 914! Drop the 4 and it's 91! Exactly the score Kyle got on his spelling test twelve days after 9/11! Who has the most to gain from 9/11?! Kyle! Who was nowhere to be found the morning the towers fell?! Kyle! Who dropped the deuce in the urinal?! Kyle!...

http://espanol.video.yahoo.com...

Uses the same logic as Godsands...
GodSands
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6/10/2009 5:10:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 6/10/2009 4:55:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
It is a coincidence. You're just trying to fit facts together to prove something. There is nothing pointing towards Isiah, yet you assume that God is pointing towards Isiah 61. You don't factor in the amount of people you had volunteering for you, the number of groups you split up in to, etc etc etc.

If God was really going to 'send you a message', he wouldn't do it in such an obscure way. All you do is fit random facts together, look through your Bible until you find the right passage, and claim it was a message. Seriously.


Really, come on, what then is the difference between something planned to a coincidence if you are right? Facts placed together, does that not make up reality. Random! How is 61 people out of, I don't know 4000 odd in the town centre and over 100,000 if more verses in the Bible, which so happened to be Isiah 61. "Set the captives free" Only relates to evangilism, I am not being funny, but how often do you come across some that will never happen again? Once right, so by you saying it was a coincidence, is destroying all things which are seeming plaaned. Man you atheists twist your heads like clock work. On minute it's planned the next it is points to God it is a coincidence.

9/11, why can that not be planned?
leet4A1
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6/10/2009 5:16:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 5:10:48 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 6/10/2009 4:55:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
It is a coincidence. You're just trying to fit facts together to prove something. There is nothing pointing towards Isiah, yet you assume that God is pointing towards Isiah 61. You don't factor in the amount of people you had volunteering for you, the number of groups you split up in to, etc etc etc.

If God was really going to 'send you a message', he wouldn't do it in such an obscure way. All you do is fit random facts together, look through your Bible until you find the right passage, and claim it was a message. Seriously.


Really, come on, what then is the difference between something planned to a coincidence if you are right? Facts placed together, does that not make up reality. Random! How is 61 people out of, I don't know 4000 odd in the town centre and over 100,000 if more verses in the Bible, which so happened to be Isiah 61. "Set the captives free" Only relates to evangilism, I am not being funny, but how often do you come across some that will never happen again? Once right, so by you saying it was a coincidence, is destroying all things which are seeming plaaned. Man you atheists twist your heads like clock work. On minute it's planned the next it is points to God it is a coincidence.

9/11, why can that not be planned?

Whoa! Guys, I had the craziest thing happen to me this morning, and I just have to tell someone!!1!

I went up to the shops this morning and walked past a sign that said "STOP". Then, when I got home, I turned the radio on. What else was playing on the radio but the song "Stop in the Name of Love". I'm pretty certain this was a message from God that I'm going to find my true love soon.

What do you guys think, coincidence or message from a higher being?
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
GodSands
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6/10/2009 5:18:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 5:10:48 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 6/10/2009 4:55:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
It is a coincidence. You're just trying to fit facts together to prove something. There is nothing pointing towards Isiah, yet you assume that God is pointing towards Isiah 61. You don't factor in the amount of people you had volunteering for you, the number of groups you split up in to, etc etc etc.

If God was really going to 'send you a message', he wouldn't do it in such an obscure way. All you do is fit random facts together, look through your Bible until you find the right passage, and claim it was a message. Seriously.


Really, come on, what then is the difference between something planned to a coincidence if you are right? Facts placed together, does that not make up reality. Random! How is 61 people out of, I don't know 4000 odd in the town centre and over 100,000 if more verses in the Bible, which so happened to be Isiah 61. "Set the captives free" Only relates to evangilism, is that random? So by you saying it was a coincidence, is destroying all things which are seeming planned. Man you atheists twist your heads like clock work. On minute it's planned the next it is points to God it is a coincidence.

Correction, if something ever happenes once, it is bound to happen at one point, if it happens more than once there is a sign. However because it happened twice wouldn't you say, "That was a coincidence." Too? Yet, if that is so all plans are not really palns but coincidences. You imply them as plans becasue you hope they will happen, but you really do not know. Like I hope for sign from God everyday, I plan everyday, in my head or to others. There is no such things as coincidences or luck. I admit that is my believe, that I take faith in that completely.

9/11, why can that not be planned?
JustCallMeTarzan
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6/10/2009 5:27:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I already tried explaining the coincidence thing but he doesn't know what a coincidence is... He told me it was:

"Something that happens spontanoursaily with indentifiable link between each event. "

I also told him that if he screwed 61 people and then read Genesis 6:1 he'd be equally amazed.
Volkov
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6/10/2009 5:41:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 5:18:20 PM, GodSands wrote:
Really, come on, what then is the difference between something planned to a coincidence if you are right? Facts placed together, does that not make up reality.

It makes up reality, sure. But its your interpretation that counts, and you interpret these random facts to mean something, when clearly it doesn't have to mean anything. You interpret the facts and fit them as you please.

Random! How is 61 people out of, I don't know 4000 odd in the town centre and over 100,000 if more verses in the Bible, which so happened to be Isiah 61. "Set the captives free" Only relates to evangilism, is that random?

YES. It is random, and I seriously doubt that Isiah 61 is the only verse that says something along the same lines. As I said - you are fitting the facts to prove a point.

So by you saying it was a coincidence, is destroying all things which are seeming planned. Man you atheists twist your heads like clock work. On minute it's planned the next it is points to God it is a coincidence.

Yes, it does destroy all things that are seemingly planned, thank you.


Correction, if something ever happenes once, it is bound to happen at one point, if it happens more than once there is a sign. However because it happened twice wouldn't you say, "That was a coincidence." Too? Yet, if that is so all plans are not really palns but coincidences.

Yes, it can be a coincidence.

I walk along a road and straight into a streetlight, because I wasn't looking. If someone else comes along and walks into the pole, it is a coincidence, it isn't planned.

You imply them as plans becasue you hope they will happen, but you really do not know.

Of course I don't know, but neither do you. Maybe that person likes to copy me, I don't know. But just because there is that possibility, doesn't mean it isn't a coincidence.

Like I hope for sign from God everyday, I plan everyday, in my head or to others. There is no such things as coincidences or luck. I admit that is my believe, that I take faith in that completely.

You're even looking for the excuse out-of-hand. You put no critical thought into it.

If I was like you, I could say that because such and such a verse in the Bible says "take the log out of your own eye before you get the speck out of someone else's", it is therefore a planned event to teach me that. Sign of God!

See how silly that is? You interpret the facts how you see fit in order to prove a point to yourself or others.

9/11, why can that not be planned?

I never said anything about 9/11. The vast number of conspiracy theories out there seem to have no proof and make stupid accusations, or are grounded in "the Jews did it!"

Besides, half of the number stuff is grounded in shady logic. So there was so many people on the plane, and those numbers added together equal 11. So what? Did you guys factor in the amount of fuel in the tanks? Did you add in air pressure? Did you add in the age of everyone in the plane?

If you're going to base so-called "planned events" based off numbers, you have to include every single number imaginable that can be correlated with that event. You cannot just pick and choose, and say that it is proof of a conspiracy. It doesn't work that way.
GodSands
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6/10/2009 6:43:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Atheist? Why are you one. You only contain long term faith. A coincidence, what is that? What is it's orgins? 61 and 61 again same day, same group of people, same type of event, same times, same faith, same place. Same meaning connecting to what we where doing. If we spoke to 38 people and there is be no verse which will match to 38 out of the 66 books which relates to the current mission we were doing at that time. In only our second week and second hour. It's beyond you silly joke of a theory. What makes you believe it was a coincident? Or are you not planning what you think and it is all a coincidence? Because to be honest I would never buy such a layed back relaxed joke. I believe it was a sign from God because, I believe and know God. Why don't you reply to a babies birth "So what."? If you believe in coincidences. DNA and science all that all a coincidence too?

How can you seperate a coincidence from a none coincidence with out God? Of the suggestion of something being a coincidence without God how can you know the difference? Tell me.
Xer
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6/10/2009 6:49:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 6:43:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
Atheist? Why are you one. You only contain long term faith. A coincidence, what is that? What is it's orgins? 61 and 61 again same day, same group of people, same type of event, same times, same faith, same place. Same meaning connecting to what we where doing. If we spoke to 38 people and there is be no verse which will match to 38 out of the 66 books which relates to the current mission we were doing at that time. In only our second week and second hour. It's beyond you silly joke of a theory. What makes you believe it was a coincident? Or are you not planning what you think and it is all a coincidence? Because to be honest I would never buy such a layed back relaxed joke. I believe it was a sign from God because, I believe and know God. Why don't you reply to a babies birth "So what."? If you believe in coincidences. DNA and science all that all a coincidence too?

How can you seperate a coincidence from a none coincidence with out God? Of the suggestion of something being a coincidence without God how can you know the difference? Tell me.

Do you even realize how stupid you sound?
Nik
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6/10/2009 8:08:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I love coincidences, they always put a smile on my face :D My friend went to Thailand recently and bumped into another friend of his in a tiny small bar on the beach, completely by chance, and he hadn't seen or heard from the guy for about 3 years! What are the chances?
"If you could tell the world but one truth, I could convince it of a thousand lies"
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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6/10/2009 8:21:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 6/10/2009 6:49:43 PM, Nags wrote:
At 6/10/2009 6:43:26 PM, GodSands wrote:
Atheist? Why are you one. You only contain long term faith. A coincidence, what is that? What is it's orgins? 61 and 61 again same day, same group of people, same type of event, same times, same faith, same place. Same meaning connecting to what we where doing. If we spoke to 38 people and there is be no verse which will match to 38 out of the 66 books which relates to the current mission we were doing at that time. In only our second week and second hour. It's beyond you silly joke of a theory. What makes you believe it was a coincident? Or are you not planning what you think and it is all a coincidence? Because to be honest I would never buy such a layed back relaxed joke. I believe it was a sign from God because, I believe and know God. Why don't you reply to a babies birth "So what."? If you believe in coincidences. DNA and science all that all a coincidence too?

How can you seperate a coincidence from a none coincidence with out God? Of the suggestion of something being a coincidence without God how can you know the difference? Tell me.

Do you even realize how stupid you sound?


Couldn't care, as long as the truth is spoken.
GodSands
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6/10/2009 8:23:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
: At 6/10/2009 8:08:47 PM, Nik wrote:
I love coincidences, they always put a smile on my face :D My friend went to Thailand recently and bumped into another friend of his in a tiny small bar on the beach, completely by chance, and he hadn't seen or heard from the guy for about 3 years! What are the chances?

God must have something in plan for them two? God knows the beginning to the end. There are no coincidences if that is right. But God would know that, right?
Volkov
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6/10/2009 10:17:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 8:23:34 PM, GodSands wrote:
God must have something in plan for them two? God knows the beginning to the end. There are no coincidences if that is right. But God would know that, right?

Explain this.

If God knows beginning to end, why would he give us free will?

He already knows what choice we're going to make. He already knows what course history will take. He already knows everything that there possibly is to know - yet he gives us free will. But clearly, free will is an illusion, because God already knows what is going to happen. So we don't have free will. In that situation, you're right. There is no coincidences.

But, in reality, there is coincidences, because there is free will. Nothing is scripted - reality can act differently, or it can act the same. It is a random series of events, not a scripted play.

You can't have it both ways either. Either God knows all, therefore there is no free will and no coincidences, or God doesn't know all and there is free will and coincidences. Which one is it going to be?
Harlan
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6/10/2009 10:56:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
But, in reality, there is coincidences, because there is free will. Nothing is scripted - reality can act differently, or it can act the same. It is a random series of events, not a scripted play.

What you are describing is a polar opposite of "reality". To say that reality follows a completely 'random' (whatever that means) series of events is synonymous with completely denying all rational understanding of the world.

To say that "reality can act differently" completely ignores the fact that (a) we know what has happened in the past and (b) that there is, by definition, only one universe.

The past is concrete and unchangeable, because it has already occurred. The future will eventually be the past, so we can conclude that the future, too, is concrete and unchangeable.
Volkov
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6/10/2009 11:11:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 10:56:39 PM, Harlan wrote:
But, in reality, there is coincidences, because there is free will. Nothing is scripted - reality can act differently, or it can act the same. It is a random series of events, not a scripted play.

What you are describing is a polar opposite of "reality". To say that reality follows a completely 'random' (whatever that means) series of events is synonymous with completely denying all rational understanding of the world.

To say that "reality can act differently" completely ignores the fact that (a) we know what has happened in the past and (b) that there is, by definition, only one universe.

The past is concrete and unchangeable, because it has already occurred. The future will eventually be the past, so we can conclude that the future, too, is concrete and unchangeable.

The past is obviously unchangeable, but why must the future be unchangeable?

There isn't anything particularly guiding my life except my environment and how I react to the environment. That is always in flux, because my environment will not always be the same, and my reactions will not always be the same. It isn't just beginning to end - its beginning to many infinite endings. I could live until I'm 80 or die tomorrow - it all depends what happens in reality, which could be any number of things. There is so many factors that it is impossible for it to stay the same always and never, ever deviate.
The future can have new factors introduced, taken away or changed in such a slight way - it is always in flux. It is never concrete.
The past, on the other hand, cannot have new factors introduced, not have factors taken away, nor have anything changed in any way - the factors will always be the same factors that are there.
When the future becomes the past, then it will be unchangeable. But while it is still the future, it is still in flux.

So you're wrong - the future is not concrete nor is it unchangeable.
Harlan
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6/11/2009 3:28:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The past is obviously unchangeable, but why must the future be unchangeable?

There isn't anything particularly guiding my life except my environment and how I react to the environment. That is always in flux, because my environment will not always be the same, and my reactions will not always be the same. It isn't just beginning to end - its beginning to many infinite endings. I could live until I'm 80 or die tomorrow - it all depends what happens in reality, which could be any number of things. There is so many factors that it is impossible for it to stay the same always and never, ever deviate.
The future can have new factors introduced, taken away or changed in such a slight way - it is always in flux. It is never concrete.
The past, on the other hand, cannot have new factors introduced, not have factors taken away, nor have anything changed in any way - the factors will always be the same factors that are there.
When the future becomes the past, then it will be unchangeable. But while it is still the future, it is still in flux.

So you're wrong - the future is not concrete nor is it unchangeable.

Future and past are just an illusion of our perception, and those terms are immaterial from an objective standpoint.

Different future scenarios may be possible given our limited, human knowledge of the factors influencing it, but we know that in reality only one of those scenarios is possible. Once the scenario has occurred, we know that it was always determined to be that because that's what it was.

Events may appear to be random but there are innumerable, minuscule, unknown factors which influence any situation which make it unlikely for us to be able to accurately predict the future.

The suggestion that all events are random and undetermined means that all science, rationality, mathematics, and logic are false, because events are random and can cause themselves to happen. If you honestly believe that then you should probably change your religious status.

2+2=4, 2+3=5, and 1+6=7. The outcome of an event is solely dependent on the factors which influenced it. 2 and 2 will never make 5.
feverish
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6/11/2009 3:29:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/10/2009 11:11:42 PM, Volkov wrote:

the future is not concrete nor is it unchangeable.

I think you could even argue that the past is not concrete or unchangeable.
Yes what's done is done but how we remember it can change a great deal.

I'm sure we've all had occasions when a family member or partner remembers a situation in the past differently to ourselves.

And once an event is out of living memory we only have the physical evidence that is subject to decay and the interpretation of historians which is also prone to alter over time.
Harlan
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6/11/2009 3:34:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/11/2009 3:29:57 PM, feverish wrote:
At 6/10/2009 11:11:42 PM, Volkov wrote:

the future is not concrete nor is it unchangeable.


I think you could even argue that the past is not concrete or unchangeable.
Yes what's done is done but how we remember it can change a great deal.

I'm sure we've all had occasions when a family member or partner remembers a situation in the past differently to ourselves.

And once an event is out of living memory we only have the physical evidence that is subject to decay and the interpretation of historians which is also prone to alter over time.

Ha, you're basically saying that Human minds' control the universe. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that the past itself becomes different when we as Humans perceive it a certain way.

The entire concept of past/future itself is just a product of perception. Perception of reality is completely different than reality, whatever that may be.
GodSands
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6/11/2009 3:48:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Just to add, that my latest debate, "The philosophy of the existence of God" Had 61 votes to con, coincidence again? It is not on 68, but that is not the point. It stayed on 61 at the time this debate kicked off? Coincidence again then? And since it was Con, no one could aim to have 61 votes because those who voted for con do not believe in God I asume. And I can not vote. Werid!! Umm think about that.
GodSands
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6/11/2009 3:51:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Just to add, that my latest debate, "The philosophy of the existence of God" Had 61 votes to con, coincidence again? It is now on 68 votes, but that is not the point. It stayed on 61 at the time this debate kicked off? Coincidence again then? And since it was Con, no one could aim to have 61 votes because those who voted for con do not believe in God I asume. And I can not vote. Werid!! Umm think about that.

"It is now on 68 votes."
feverish
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6/11/2009 3:52:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/11/2009 3:34:32 PM, Harlan wrote:
At 6/11/2009 3:29:57 PM, feverish wrote:
At 6/10/2009 11:11:42 PM, Volkov wrote:

the future is not concrete nor is it unchangeable.


I think you could even argue that the past is not concrete or unchangeable.
Yes what's done is done but how we remember it can change a great deal.

I'm sure we've all had occasions when a family member or partner remembers a situation in the past differently to ourselves.

And once an event is out of living memory we only have the physical evidence that is subject to decay and the interpretation of historians which is also prone to alter over time.

Ha, you're basically saying that Human minds' control the universe. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that the past itself becomes different when we as Humans perceive it a certain way.

The entire concept of past/future itself is just a product of perception. Perception of reality is completely different than reality, whatever that may be.

Yes Harlan, that is what I was 'basically saying' that one COULD argue, not an opinion of my own.

But to continue the theme, how do we really know reality exists at all and isn't just a product of our perceptions? Isn't that similar to some eastern phillosophies?

It may be unlikely but no more so than many other far fetched beliefs.
Volkov
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6/11/2009 4:38:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/11/2009 3:28:29 PM, Harlan wrote:
Future and past are just an illusion of our perception, and those terms are immaterial from an objective standpoint.

Different future scenarios may be possible given our limited, human knowledge of the factors influencing it, but we know that in reality only one of those scenarios is possible. Once the scenario has occurred, we know that it was always determined to be that because that's what it was.

Events may appear to be random but there are innumerable, minuscule, unknown factors which influence any situation which make it unlikely for us to be able to accurately predict the future.

The suggestion that all events are random and undetermined means that all science, rationality, mathematics, and logic are false, because events are random and can cause themselves to happen. If you honestly believe that then you should probably change your religious status.

2+2=4, 2+3=5, and 1+6=7. The outcome of an event is solely dependent on the factors which influenced it. 2 and 2 will never make 5.

I agree with you, up to a certain point. Laws of the universe are unchangeable, but I don't think that they will happen in a precise, determined order, if you understand what I mean. You can use the laws as the base rules of the environment to which we react, but that environment - while it is set in its laws and whatnot - can have events occur in a random order. I'm probably not explaining this right, because I am far from an expert on this subject. But I don't agree that everything happens in a determined order, always concrete and never deviating.

Besides, there is a point to be made here of black holes. Black holes can distort light, gravity and time - what is your ideas on that? Does this make them not apart of our universe, or do they still fit within the spectrum of the laws of the universe?
Harlan
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6/11/2009 4:45:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I agree with you, up to a certain point. Laws of the universe are unchangeable, but I don't think that they will happen in a precise, determined order, if you understand what I mean. You can use the laws as the base rules of the environment to which we react, but that environment - while it is set in its laws and whatnot - can have events occur in a random order. I'm probably not explaining this right, because I am far from an expert on this subject. But I don't agree that everything happens in a determined order, always concrete and never deviating.

Besides, there is a point to be made here of black holes. Black holes can distort light, gravity and time - what is your ideas on that? Does this make them not apart of our universe, or do they still fit within the spectrum of the laws of the universe?

You are still asserting that something can happen without being caused to happen, i.e. happening for no reason, or causing itself to happen. This goes against all scientific and mathematical logic.

And of course I do not think that black holes are not a part of the universe, because that would be a contradiction in terms. I wouldn't suggest that the laws of the universe don't apply to them, either, because that, too, is a contradiction.
Harlan
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6/11/2009 4:48:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
But to continue the theme, how do we really know reality exists at all and isn't just a product of our perceptions? Isn't that similar to some eastern phillosophies?

It may be unlikely but no more so than many other far fetched beliefs.

Nothing can be definitively known by Human minds, but for the sake of this argument we are assuming an omnipotent POV which knows that reality does exist. I was, at least.