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Mongeese's Ultimate Team War II

mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/18/2009 4:08:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is part of my debate against Logical-Master here.
http://www.debate.org...

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Okay, first I have to establish that Yugi can, in fact, use his cards.

http://yugioh.wikia.com...

"Originally, a Millennium Item was needed to summon Ka, except your own."

This means that Yugi and Kaiba can use their Millennium Items to summon their monsters and spells and traps and whatnot. Thief King Bakura was able to do this without declaring a duel, but rather, invading Egypt.

Furthermore, by "Shadow Realm," I am talking about the penalty games, not the banishing.

Yugi does have the Millennium Rod. Marik gives it to him after he is defeated at the end of the Battle City arc. It would only work on Reed Richards, but that's better than nothing.

So, Yugi won't have to duel Lelouch. Even if he did, he has many cards that Kaiba doesn't, such as the Egyptian God cards, and Kaiba hasn't managed to defeat them, and he's the one with the briefcase and all.
Yugi's credentials:
He has the Millennium Eye, which allows him to read Lelouch's mind and know what his plans are.
He has the Millennium Necklace, which allows him to predict which cards both of them will draw.
He has the Millennium Puzzle, which gives him the advice of an ancient Egyptian pharaoh who has the power to summon the Egyptian Gods.
He is the King of Games.

1. Mind Control

So, the Millennium Rod apparently works on Reed Richards, and there's nothing against Brain Control, Change of Heart, and Enemy Controller. Kaiba probably also has Brain Control and Change of Heart, so this would allow for complete domination.

2. Alcohol

By using De-Fusion, Yugi can separate Super Vegetto, giving Jimmy Buffett enough time to pull this off.

3. Individual Strategies
a. No, because Yugi uses Collected Power through Ka, rather than in a duel.
b. See above.
c. See above.
d. Okay.
e. Okay.
f. A cutscene could stall Super Vegetto until Yugi uses De-Fusion.
g. Well, Yugi owns Reed Richards now.
h. Okay.

Now, to counter my opponent...

For Geass, direct eye contact is required. If everybody closes his or her eyes, the problem is solved.
"As demonstrated in Princess Euphemia's response to the command that she kill the Japanese, a victim may resist a commanded action to some degree if it is utterly repugnant to them."
Killing oneself is usually utterly repugnant if they want to live.
This would allow either Yugi or Kaiba to play Fissure, killing Zero.

As for Dr. Strange, I've already got him bound and gagged and miles beneath the surface of the earth, thanks to Tribute to the Doomed.

Reed Richards is subject to the Millennium Rod. Additionally, Collected Power transfers the Ultimate Nullifier to Link, allowing Link to destroy Team CON.

As for Super Vegetto, the use of Kuriboh saves Yugi and Kaiba from any harm until De-Fusion and two Bottomless Trap Holes are used, or Sakuretsu Armor could destroy Super Vegetta, or Mirror Force. Waboku could also be used to protect everybody.

Yusuke seems pretty powerful. I shall first note that he is an underage drinker, so Jimmy Buffett could distract him. Secondly, I have a question. What is the source of Yusuke's power? Now, I could easily kill him using numerous cards, such as Soul Exchange, adding his power to that of the Winged Dragon of Ra, or Ragnarok, which renders his powers useless as his entire deck of monsters beats Yusuke to death. Chaos Comman Magician is also immune to powers, and Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon destroys anything that targets it with additional powers. Spellbinding Circle can freeze Yusuke and render him useless. Or, of course, I can use the Armor again, or a control card, or the incredible powers of Obelisk the Tormentor. Or, Soul Taker could remove his soul. Finally, I have either Reed Richards or Link armed with an Ultimate Nullifier. This gives me plenty of options.

Here's the plan so far:

Kaiba destroys Super Vegetto with Sakaretsu Amror when he attempts a Speed Blitz., and then uses Tribute to the Doomed to safely eliminate Dr. Strange.
Yugi takes control of Reed Richards using the Millennium Rod, and either he or Link uses the Ultimate Nullifier to eliminate whomever on Team CON they can.
Jimmy Buffett distracts Yusuke with margaritas, while Yugi and Kaiba play whatever cards they can in order to destroy Yusuke.
Reed Richards is sacrificed to the Winged Dragon of Ra.

This is going to be difficult.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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6/18/2009 9:17:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
PRO claims that his wiki article establishes that Yugi can in fact use his cards, but this is yet another misunderstanding in terms of what the actual source material dictates. What my opponent doesn't seem to be aware of it that millenium items would summon the actual souls of actual monsters to the field, via the tablets the monsters souls were stored in. In addition, there were no trap or spell cards.

What my opponent has claimed is simply that both Yugi and Kaiba would bring their decks. There is nothing magical about either of their decks. At best, the actual souls of the three egyptian gods are stored in yugi's egyption god cards, but that's about it.

As for Bakura not declaring a duel, that was in the past. Obviously, there are some clear differences between how monsters and millennium items were used 3000 years ago and how they were used in the present. My opponent is free to scroll through the Yugio manga (especially regarding Yugi's first duel with Kaiba)( http://www.onemanga.com... ). He shall find that Yugi always had to start a yami no yugi penalty game in order for his powers to work. Also, Yugi and Kaiba aren't Bakura, so . . .

RE: Mind Control


Now it seems I was mistaken in terms of what instances of the series where characters possessed certain millenium items. Nevertheless, I'd like to remind you (the audience) of one important fact which my opponent addresses at no point during the round and that is the speed difference between my team and the team of my opponent's. Super Vegetto's alone is more than enough. Watch 2:59 - 3:04 on the vid to the right. After watching it, imagine a being who is several times superior and you'll know what Super Vegetto is capable of. Until PRO can explain how anyone on his team could manage to deal with someone attacking that with such speed PRECISELY when the battle starts, this debate is over. Seriously, before Yugi or Kaiba even put their hands on their decks or millenium items, let alone processed the thought of using them, Super Vegetto could kill them a thousand times over, make a sandwich and read a magazine at the same time.

In addition, when keeping in mind that Yusuke Urameshi is more powerful than Super Vegetto and also well capable of speed blitzing, it's a unwinnable battle.


RE: Alcohol


Again, I've established the cards wouldn't do zilch without someone having agreed to a penalty game. Though even if they did work (which they don't), I've already demonstrated that two characters on my team could easily take out my opponent's entire time before they even processed a single thought, Drawing cards in time would be impossible when your adversary is fast enough to casually circumvent the entire planet a dozen times in mere seconds or destroy a planet in less than a second.

RE: Individual Strategies


a. Wrong. Yugii's deck has no such magic. His god cards may be an exception (though we've never seen them summoned outside of a duel), but with my opponent focusing his strategies on the use of trap or spell cards, it doesn't matter.
b. See above.
c. See above.
d. Conceded?
e. Conceded?
f. All of my characters essentially exist during cut scenes (in fact, there entire series consist of cut scenes), so they'd be fine. Only video game characters are effected by the toggling of cut scenes.
g. Not before Dr. Strange dispels the magic, forces Reed Richards into a sleep state or transports him into another dimension.
h. Conceded?


RE: For Geass, direct eye contact is required. If everybody closes his or her eyes, the problem is solved.


That assumes anyone on my opponent's team has foreknowledge of geass. How would they know what geass was? And if they did know, my team ought to be able to receive the same advantage in terms of foreknowledge.

RE: Killing oneself is usually utterly repugnant if they want to live.


My opponent misunderstands. Although both Euphemia and Nunnally had showed some form of resistance, they still were effected by Lelouch' geass and were forced to fulfill their commands. See the second video on the right (3:47 - 4:05). She couldn't do anything about it. Neither would Kaiba or Yugi or anyone else on PRO's team.

RE: "As for Dr. Strange, I've already got him bound and gagged and miles beneath the surface of the earth, thanks to Tribute to the Doomed."


Wouldn't matter even if this worked. Dr. Strange could simply teleport from that location. But like I already said: PRO's whole team gets speed blitzed before this could even become a possibility.

RE: Reed Richards is subject to the Millennium Rod. Additionally, Collected Power transfers the Ultimate Nullifier to Link, allowing Link to destroy Team CON.

Even if cards worked without a penalty game in play, Dr. Strange could transport both Reed and the ultimate nullifier into another dimension. Heck, I seriously don't see what's stopping anyone on my team from simply taking the millenium items by force (especially the speed blitzers)

RE:"As for Super Vegetto . . ."


Again, speed blitz. Irrefutable. Also, duel monster cards wouldn't work without an agreed game in play.

RE"Yusuke seems pretty powerful. I shall first note that he is an underage drinker, so Jimmy Buffett could distract him"


If Yusuke attacks at full speed, Buffett won't even have time to utter a single word or thought.

Secondly, I have a question. What is the source of Yusuke's power?

Spirit energy, demon energy and sacred energy.

RE: I could easily kill him using numerous cards, such as Soul Exchange, adding his power to that of the Winged Dragon of Ra, or Ragnarok, which renders his powers useless as his entire deck of monsters beats Yusuke to death."

There isn't a single real monster in Yugio which is powerful enough to destroy a planet, much less with the excessive ease Yusuke can do so in. Again though, speed blitzing takes care of cards even having a chance at being used.

RE: Chaos Comman Magician is also immune to powers, and Blue-Eyes Shining Dragon destroys anything that targets it with additional powers.

Even if these were real monsters, this is clearly an example of the no limits fallacy.
Besides, just because there is just some rule made up in a children's card game, it doesn't mean this rule would apply if we were to go beyond a children's card game. Nevertheless, speedblitz argument still applies.

Finally, I have either Reed Richards or Link armed with an Ultimate Nullifier. This gives me plenty of options.

Even if I weren't going to have my team simply speed blitz PRO's team and win the match in less than a single nano-second, there are other ways around this. For instance, does Link even possess the intelligence to use the Ultimate Nullifier ray? I certainly don't think so. Quickly rereading the link I provided should reveal this as it is a pretty complicated device, and certainly not usable by some country bumpkin who wears silly green clothing. Not to mention that the speed blitzers on my team could take all of the millenium items at the start of the battle (especially if we are going to say that my opponent's team knows about Geass).

And that'll do it for now. :D
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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6/19/2009 12:55:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Okay, this is not going well.

First, I shall handle the speed-blitzing. Link is capable of a move called the Mortal Draw (http://zelda.wikia.com...), which he could use to slay Super Vegetto, should he speed-blitz.

Second, the cards do contain some power. In the Dawn of the Duel arc, Kaiba was able to summon his Blue-Eyes White Dragon using only his cards through the Millennium Items. See YouTube video, 0:14-0:25.

Third, Midna has the power to change form. She can transform into Keiko Yukimura, and "Keiko is Yusuke's weakness" (http://yuyuhakusho.wikia.com...), so she would then be able to defeat Yusuke.

Midna could also use her Twilight powers to warp everybody else away temporarily as she takes on Yusuke and Link uses the Mortal Draw to defeat Super Vegetto.

This puts everybody else warped away somewhere else, perhaps the Twilight Realm, where Kaiba can use Tribute to the Doomed to defeat Dr. Strange. He would not be able to teleport away, because he needs to speak to use magic, as described by his Wiki page, and Tribute to the Doomed gags him in mummy wrappings.

Because everybody does get to know beforehand what their enemies are, I can avoid Geass, making Zero easily taken down by Fissure, or the Winged Dragon of Ra.

This leaves Reed Richardson, whom I can take over with the Millennium Rod, thus allowing me to destroy whatever I please with the Ultimate Nullifier.

Link can use the Ultimate Nullifier, because he has the Triforce of Courage, and can automatically use any device perfectly once he obtains it.

So, that will be all for now.
Logical-Master
Posts: 2,538
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6/20/2009 12:13:39 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 6/19/2009 12:55:52 PM, mongeese wrote:
Okay, this is not going well.

First, I shall handle the speed-blitzing. Link is capable of a move called the Mortal Draw (http://zelda.wikia.com...), which he could use to slay Super Vegetto, should he speed-blitz.

1) There is nothing in that article which indicates mortal draw enables one to to AUTOMATICALLY counter anything coming at you way faster than the speed of light.

2) There is nothing to indicate that Link even has the senses to detect anything moving that fast. Seriously, Vegetto can kill LInk or anyone else on PRO's team before they even think.

3) We're talking about a guy who can easily beat people who can shrug off planet destroying attacks (keep in mind that Perfect Cell shrugged off Goku's warp kamehameha, which Cell claimed had enough power to destroy the planet. Super Vegetto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perfect Cell). Is Link on a planet destroying scale of power? No. Heck, not even Ganondorth is. I'm sure Link's antics (even if he were fast enough to attack Vegetto) would be no more threatening than a fly hitting bumping into someone's face.

Second, the cards do contain some power. In the Dawn of the Duel arc, Kaiba was able to summon his Blue-Eyes White Dragon using only his cards through the Millennium Items. See YouTube video, 0:14-0:25.

If I recall correctly, this took place in memory world (a place where the actual monsters souls were well present and could be summoned via stone tablet). Not to mention that the real spirit of the blue eyes white dragon was present, so this really establishes nothing as we're talking about Yugi and Kaiba being in the real (or rather, current) world. Had my opponent set the battlefield as the memory world (ancient egypt), it would be a different story.

Third, Midna has the power to change form. She can transform into Keiko Yukimura, and "Keiko is Yusuke's weakness" (http://yuyuhakusho.wikia.com...), so she would then be able to defeat Yusuke.

Having the power to change form and having the power to mimic the appearance are not necessarily the same. Not to mention that there is absolutely nothing to indicate the midna is telepathic, thus there would really be know way for he to nkow about Keiko. Furthermore, even if she was telepathic, lets not forget that Dr. Strange is not only telepathic, can bend reality and change forms via magic, but that he is far more powerful than Midna and even Ganondorf. What's to stop him from simply changing into anyone Midna cherishes? Hell, he could make it appear as if everyone on my team were people on my opponent's team, whereas everyone on my opponent's team were people on my team. In fact, he could instill this illusion to all of their minds, hence getting them to take each other out

But I digress. Before Midna even got to chance to try anything, Yusuke could kill her and anyone else on PRO's team far faster and more effective than even Vegetto could. Thus, PRO's team is toast no matter how you look at it.

Midna could also use her Twilight powers to warp everybody else away temporarily as she takes on Yusuke and Link uses the Mortal Draw to defeat Super Vegetto.

Doctor Strange could do the same thing (and far better might I add). Nevertheless, niether Midna or Link will even be able to process a thought before Yusuke and Vegetto (or just one of them alone) speed blitzes the living daylights out of their entire team.

This puts everybody else warped away somewhere else, perhaps the Twilight Realm, where Kaiba can use Tribute to the Doomed to defeat Dr. Strange. He would not be able to teleport away, because he needs to speak to use magic, as described by his Wiki page, and Tribute to the Doomed gags him in mummy wrappings.

Dr. Strange doesn't need to speak. This vid on the right is proof (notice how there are no incantations for his intangibility or teleportation) (4:20 -4:29).

If anything, it only applies to certain spells. Fortunately, I've proven that he can teleport witout speaking.

Because everybody does get to know beforehand what their enemies are, I can avoid Geass, making Zero easily taken down by Fissure, or the Winged Dragon of Ra.


Alright, well if that's the case, I can simply having Dr. Strange magically make all of my opponent's teams possessions vanish at the start of the fight or have Vegetto and Yusuke speedblitz and steal their possessions. Though killing them would be more efficient.

This leaves Reed Richardson, whom I can take over with the Millennium Rod, thus allowing me to destroy whatever I please with the Ultimate Nullifier.

As insisted, Dr. Strange can easily intervene. The second video shows Dr. Strange negating mind control effects placed on Spider-Man:

Link can use the Ultimate Nullifier, because he has the Triforce of Courage, and can automatically use any device perfectly once he obtains it.

Where is it indicated that the Triforce of courage enables him to do this?

And that'll do it for now.