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Women in the (gaming) world

tulle
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4/18/2012 12:42:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wasn't sure where to post this topic and I almost put it in the Debate.org forum because you could replace "gaming" with "DDO".

I thought this was an interesting article:

http://kotaku.com...

I can't do it justice to summarize it, but it's basically about nerds and male privilege, and I think his points are relevant to DDO as well, especially with the explosion of the Personal Forum over the past month. I do feel as though girls on DDO are treated as some kind of "other".

This quote stood out to me because it's the reason I deactivated my old account:

Men also won't have their opinions weighed or dismissed solely on the basis of how sexy or attractive they are. The most common responses a woman can expect in an argument – especially online – is that she's fat, ugly, single, jealous, a whore, or a lesbian – or any combination thereof – and therefore her opinion is irrelevant, regardless of it's actual merits.

Not because anyone actually said those specific things to me, but because I was tired of my outer appearance being the filter through which people saw me, and it did show in my interactions with some people.

Again, I cannot do the article justice by summarizing it so I would suggest you read it. Thoughts?
yang.
tulle
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4/18/2012 12:58:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 12:51:30 PM, Koopin wrote:
Hold on, are you talking about what they look like, or just the fact that they are females?

Both. Look at Royal and Oryus. Nobody even knows what they look like and yet people were dying to know. There are a lot of people who have never shown their pictures but those were the ones that became a huge deal. Everyone appears to be stunned that there are good-looking girls on DDO but nobody is stunned that there are good-looking guys. I don't want to call her out, but there is a female member on here that was berated by a couple of guys and called ugly on multiple occasions, I think you know who I'm talking about.

And you're right, it's not just gender.
yang.
drafterman
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4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It's an entertaining article that I've read before. Here are some of my responses:

Nobody wants to acknowledge that a one-sided (and one-dimensional) portrayal of women is the dominant paradigm in gaming

Bullshit. It's acknowledged all the time, all over the place. A google search for "sexism in video games" returns over a million hits. In comparison, a google search for "god exists" reutrns over 8 million hits. So people are talking about sexism in video games one eigth as much as they are talking about whether god exists.

In this case, the threat is that – ultimately – fandom won't cater to guys almost to exclusion

False. </dwightschrute> While what he says afterwards, "that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future" the inclusion of such viewpoints will not necessarily result in the exclusion of existing ones. It's an addition, not a replacement.

The video games are created by certain people for certain people. It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model. While he may be justified in the assertion that responses to this are based in an irrational fear, his statement that this is a legitimate threat to any existing model is baseless.

Catering to a specific demographic doesn't affect how other demographics are catered to. If "gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women" start creating video games and such to appeal to a certain demographic, it's not going to stop the existing demographic of guys who want to see a scantily clad Wonder Woman tied up every month. They're not going to stop wanting to see that stuff, ergo they're not going to stop buying that stuff it is produced, ergo people will still produce that stuff to make a profit.

The rest of the article details the type of treatment women receive simply because they're women. Most of it is true. But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?
KeytarHero
Posts: 612
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4/18/2012 1:18:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 12:42:54 PM, tulle wrote:
I wasn't sure where to post this topic and I almost put it in the Debate.org forum because you could replace "gaming" with "DDO".

I thought this was an interesting article:

http://kotaku.com...

I can't do it justice to summarize it, but it's basically about nerds and male privilege, and I think his points are relevant to DDO as well, especially with the explosion of the Personal Forum over the past month. I do feel as though girls on DDO are treated as some kind of "other".

This quote stood out to me because it's the reason I deactivated my old account:

Men also won't have their opinions weighed or dismissed solely on the basis of how sexy or attractive they are. The most common responses a woman can expect in an argument – especially online – is that she's fat, ugly, single, jealous, a whore, or a lesbian – or any combination thereof – and therefore her opinion is irrelevant, regardless of it's actual merits.

Not because anyone actually said those specific things to me, but because I was tired of my outer appearance being the filter through which people saw me, and it did show in my interactions with some people.

Again, I cannot do the article justice by summarizing it so I would suggest you read it. Thoughts?

I'm glad that men can have their thoughts weighed without worrying how attractive they are. Attractiveness would work against me. lol

However, I think you are right to some degree that women are discriminated against based on their attractiveness. It shouldn't be that way. We should work to change it.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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4/18/2012 1:23:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM, drafterman wrote:

False. </dwightschrute>

lol

While what he says afterwards, "that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future" the inclusion of such viewpoints will not necessarily result in the exclusion of existing ones. It's an addition, not a replacement.


Hm I didn't read it that way... I thought he was just saying that was the perceived threat and not the actual threat. I could be wrong.

The video games are created by certain people for certain people. It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model. While he may be justified in the assertion that responses to this are based in an irrational fear, his statement that this is a legitimate threat to any existing model is baseless.

Catering to a specific demographic doesn't affect how other demographics are catered to. If "gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women" start creating video games and such to appeal to a certain demographic, it's not going to stop the existing demographic of guys who want to see a scantily clad Wonder Woman tied up every month. They're not going to stop wanting to see that stuff, ergo they're not going to stop buying that stuff it is produced, ergo people will still produce that stuff to make a profit.


That's true.

The rest of the article details the type of treatment women receive simply because they're women. Most of it is true. But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol
yang.
Oryus
Posts: 8,280
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4/18/2012 1:24:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 12:58:09 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 12:51:30 PM, Koopin wrote:
Hold on, are you talking about what they look like, or just the fact that they are females?

Both. Look at Royal and Oryus. Nobody even knows what they look like and yet people were dying to know. There are a lot of people who have never shown their pictures but those were the ones that became a huge deal. Everyone appears to be stunned that there are good-looking girls on DDO but nobody is stunned that there are good-looking guys. I don't want to call her out, but there is a female member on here that was berated by a couple of guys and called ugly on multiple occasions, I think you know who I'm talking about.

And you're right, it's not just gender.

Yes. It is convenient that a lot of the women who have shown their pictures ARE in one way or another conventionally attractive- it would not at all play to our benefit if we weren't. And that is sad. I completely agree with all that you are saying here and when you deactivated your old account, I understood exactly why and I don't blame you at all.
I deal with this problem far less on DDO than on, say, online games or something. Or youtube. People here are generally more intelligent than the norm but still not immune to blindness of their privilege.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:23:00 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM, drafterman wrote:

False. </dwightschrute>

lol

While what he says afterwards, "that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future" the inclusion of such viewpoints will not necessarily result in the exclusion of existing ones. It's an addition, not a replacement.


Hm I didn't read it that way... I thought he was just saying that was the perceived threat and not the actual threat. I could be wrong.

The video games are created by certain people for certain people. It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model. While he may be justified in the assertion that responses to this are based in an irrational fear, his statement that this is a legitimate threat to any existing model is baseless.

Catering to a specific demographic doesn't affect how other demographics are catered to. If "gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women" start creating video games and such to appeal to a certain demographic, it's not going to stop the existing demographic of guys who want to see a scantily clad Wonder Woman tied up every month. They're not going to stop wanting to see that stuff, ergo they're not going to stop buying that stuff it is produced, ergo people will still produce that stuff to make a profit.


That's true.

The rest of the article details the type of treatment women receive simply because they're women. Most of it is true. But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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4/18/2012 1:39:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?

The Rate Males thread and its variants :p
yang.
tulle
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4/18/2012 1:39:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:39:12 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?

The Rate Males thread and its variants :p

Obviously you weren't alone in this, I commented in that thread too.
yang.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/18/2012 1:40:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:39:12 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?

The Rate Males thread and its variants :p

Oh, lololol

;)
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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4/18/2012 1:41:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:39:59 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:39:12 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?

The Rate Males thread and its variants :p

Obviously you weren't alone in this, I commented in that thread too.

I take full pride in claiming that I started it? People want pics? They can feel free to post their own :)
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/18/2012 1:42:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:23:00 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM, drafterman wrote:

False. </dwightschrute>

lol

While what he says afterwards, "that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future" the inclusion of such viewpoints will not necessarily result in the exclusion of existing ones. It's an addition, not a replacement.


Hm I didn't read it that way... I thought he was just saying that was the perceived threat and not the actual threat. I could be wrong.

He talks about both.


The video games are created by certain people for certain people. It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model. While he may be justified in the assertion that responses to this are based in an irrational fear, his statement that this is a legitimate threat to any existing model is baseless.

Catering to a specific demographic doesn't affect how other demographics are catered to. If "gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women" start creating video games and such to appeal to a certain demographic, it's not going to stop the existing demographic of guys who want to see a scantily clad Wonder Woman tied up every month. They're not going to stop wanting to see that stuff, ergo they're not going to stop buying that stuff it is produced, ergo people will still produce that stuff to make a profit.


That's true.

The rest of the article details the type of treatment women receive simply because they're women. Most of it is true. But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

No, I mean, I'll freely admit that the issue of gender only really affects women. But it is not the only attribute on which such behaviors can be based on. My question is, what is special about gender-based discrimination as opposed to discrimination based on other factors.

Whenever I've been discriminated against, I'd say the primary two factors are my religious stance (atheist) and nationality (American).

So, my question is, if someone comes here and tells you "TITS OR GTFO" and then turns to me and tells me I'm going to burn in hell, which is worse? Can it even be compared?

I'm not defending anything, BTW. I know this behavior exists, is prolific, universally affects women, and should be discouraged.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/18/2012 1:55:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM, drafterman wrote:
It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model.

I just wanted to thank you for summarizing exactly why it is complete and utter crap that capitalism eradicates racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. on the basis that it's not profitable. You'd be surprised at how many people here have made that dumb argument.

Anyways...

But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?

Actually the author doesn't imply that. He only talks about the gaming culture, so I think this typical "Me too" response is unnecessary. Obviously everyone experiences adversity and prejudice in some capacity. Straight white men tend to be the most privileged demographic. Even if they aren't wealthy, the "privilege" is that compared to a straight black man, if asking a random stranger which is more likely to be wealthy (blind guess) the white man would be presumed to be the more wealthy automatically. So privilege is about perception. Now does this imply that the straight white man is never discriminated against? Absolutely not. Discrimination exists in just about every social activity. But this article is about gaming (or DDO) in particular.

Tulle's points are pretty accurate. As far as DDO trends, I will say that while it's true one female was made fun of for her looks, that the same prime attacker also criticized another member (C_N) for his looks.

Over the years I've also see some girls here I would describe as physically dull or barely attractive be fawned over like you wouldn't believe, just because there aren't a whole lot to choose from, and these girls actually engage with some of the guys who don't talk to girls IRL. Statistics work in your favor that you will be hit on if you are a straight girl on DDO regardless of what you look like. So that's one advantage (assuming girls want to be hit on by guys here).

Regardless, I can say with certainty that tulle is correct in how girls are "Othered" around here though it's hard to describe. However I have given up trying to explain being marginalized to people who don't experience it. Upon pointing out this reality, a guy's automatic reaction will be to either defend and justify it, immediately retaliate that they too experience hardship to diminish the relevance, or flat out deny that it exists. This is the trend in just about every area in which discrimination is highlighted.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/18/2012 2:05:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:42:33 PM, drafterman wrote:
No, I mean, I'll freely admit that the issue of gender only really affects women. But it is not the only attribute on which such behaviors can be based on. My question is, what is special about gender-based discrimination as opposed to discrimination based on other factors.

Obviously gender discrimination isn't the only kind. I remember that when a recent Resident Evil game came out, there was some outcry over the characters killing Africans or something. I don't recall exactly. But racism and other issues in gaming have certainly been addressed. I don't think the point of this thread (or article) is to suggest that discrimination exists only on the basis of gender... so what's your point?

Whenever I've been discriminated against, I'd say the primary two factors are my religious stance (atheist) and nationality (American).

Fortunately for you these are 2 things that nobody would ever know about you just by looking at you. I'm not undermining the relevance of these things (I also fit under both of these categories), but would a friend turn your back on you upon realizing that you were an American? Say - as opposed to gay. Or would an employer not call you back because you're an Atheist? No - they wouldn't know. Yet study after study shows that before there were affirmative action laws (and I'm not saying I agree with them), the odds of you being called back for a job interview if your name was Jane Doe vs. Shaniqua Brown reveals a very obvious bias based on things that are seemingly less obvious to hide (INB4 Shaniqua not necessarily being a black name lol).

So, my question is, if someone comes here and tells you "TITS OR GTFO" and then turns to me and tells me I'm going to burn in hell, which is worse? Can it even be compared?

Why do you feel the need to talk about how you've been so0o0o oppressed to acknowledge that other people are marginalized? I think the reason people talk so much more about gender discrimination is that it affects SO many people SO often. Women are half the population - more than half - and the hypersexualization is everywhere so obviously it is in our minds and greatly effects our everyday lives and thus perception of the world. I highly doubt that people are making you uncomfortable on a daily basis because you don't believe in god. And I highly doubt that what you post on DDO or your intellectual contributions in general are going to be viewed through the filtered lens of whether you were born in America or Canada. Just saying.
President of DDO
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/18/2012 2:20:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:55:02 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:07:18 PM, drafterman wrote:
It works because it's profitable. That's capitolism. Different people entering the business to cater to other different people doesn't eliminate the preexisting business model.

I just wanted to thank you for summarizing exactly why it is complete and utter crap that capitalism eradicates racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. on the basis that it's not profitable. You'd be surprised at how many people here have made that dumb argument.

Anyways...

But it's like he's implying that men never receive abuse, harassment, or discrimination in such cultures. This is simply not true, even if it's true that it is not based purely on their sex. So the question is, why is descrimination based on gender special, such that it needs to be singled out?

Actually the author doesn't imply that. He only talks about the gaming culture, so I think this typical "Me too" response is unnecessary.

Any response at all can be qualified as "unnecessary." There was a general question regarding people's thoughts on the matter. I provided mine. Are they necessary? No. Are they correct? Maybe, maybe not. Was the creation of this thread "necessary?" Was my response "necessary?" Was yours? What is "necessary?" What was the point of addressing the "necessity" of my response?

Obviously everyone experiences adversity and prejudice in some capacity. Straight white men tend to be the most privileged demographic. Even if they aren't wealthy, the "privilege" is that compared to a straight black man, if asking a random stranger which is more likely to be wealthy (blind guess) the white man would be presumed to be the more wealthy automatically. So privilege is about perception. Now does this imply that the straight white man is never discriminated against? Absolutely not. Discrimination exists in just about every social activity. But this article is about gaming (or DDO) in particular.

Tulle's points are pretty accurate. As far as DDO trends, I will say that while it's true one female was made fun of for her looks, that the same prime attacker also criticized another member (C_N) for his looks.

Over the years I've also see some girls here I would describe as physically dull or barely attractive be fawned over like you wouldn't believe, just because there aren't a whole lot to choose from, and these girls actually engage with some of the guys who don't talk to girls IRL. Statistics work in your favor that you will be hit on if you are a straight girl on DDO regardless of what you look like. So that's one advantage (assuming girls want to be hit on by guys here).

Regardless, I can say with certainty that tulle is correct in how girls are "Othered" around here though it's hard to describe. However I have given up trying to explain being marginalized to people who don't experience it. Upon pointing out this reality, a guy's automatic reaction will be to either defend and justify it, immediately retaliate that they too experience hardship to diminish the relevance, or flat out deny that it exists. This is the trend in just about every area in which discrimination is highlighted.

Well, that's certainly not what I'm doing here. Certainly I've brought up the "me too" issue that you mentioned, but my goal is not to diminish the relevance of anything. What you and tulle describes happens. It shouldn't.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 2:05:04 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:42:33 PM, drafterman wrote:
No, I mean, I'll freely admit that the issue of gender only really affects women. But it is not the only attribute on which such behaviors can be based on. My question is, what is special about gender-based discrimination as opposed to discrimination based on other factors.

Obviously gender discrimination isn't the only kind. I remember that when a recent Resident Evil game came out, there was some outcry over the characters killing Africans or something. I don't recall exactly. But racism and other issues in gaming have certainly been addressed. I don't think the point of this thread (or article) is to suggest that discrimination exists only on the basis of gender... so what's your point?

My point was to read the article and provide my thoughts on the matter, as was asked. The author of the article clearly treats this issue as if it were a novel concept. He portrays it as some dark secret no one ever talks about, which is clearly not true.


Whenever I've been discriminated against, I'd say the primary two factors are my religious stance (atheist) and nationality (American).

Fortunately for you these are 2 things that nobody would ever know about you just by looking at you. I'm not undermining the relevance of these things (I also fit under both of these categories), but would a friend turn your back on you upon realizing that you were an American? Say - as opposed to gay. Or would an employer not call you back because you're an Atheist? No - they wouldn't know. Yet study after study shows that before there were affirmative action laws (and I'm not saying I agree with them), the odds of you being called back for a job interview if your name was Jane Doe vs. Shaniqua Brown reveals a very obvious bias based on things that are seemingly less obvious to hide (INB4 Shaniqua not necessarily being a black name lol).

So, my question is, if someone comes here and tells you "TITS OR GTFO" and then turns to me and tells me I'm going to burn in hell, which is worse? Can it even be compared?

Why do you feel the need to talk about how you've been so0o0o oppressed to acknowledge that other people are marginalized?

This is hyperbole. I haven't been "oppressed." I'm struggling to determine what your expectations where here. Please categorize what you feel an "appropriate" response would have been.

I think the reason people talk so much more about gender discrimination is that it affects SO many people SO often. Women are half the population - more than half - and the hypersexualization is everywhere so obviously it is in our minds and greatly effects our everyday lives and thus perception of the world. I highly doubt that people are making you uncomfortable on a daily basis because you don't believe in god. And I highly doubt that what you post on DDO or your intellectual contributions in general are going to be viewed through the filtered lens of whether you were born in America or Canada. Just saying.

You do hit upon a relevant point in that I cannot conceive of what it is like to be on the receiving end of such discrimination. And this last point is correct. I am not harassed on a daily basis, either here or in real life, for any attribute I possess. I certainly am in what many would characterize as a privileged class.

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.
tulle
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4/18/2012 5:30:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM, drafterman wrote:

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.

I understand what you mean about being discriminated against for being an atheist but the fact that we have a choice in whether to divulge that information is a big difference. By hiding my gender on DDO, by default, I have to be male. By hiding your religion or lack thereof, you're not identifying with any specific religion (or lack thereof).
yang.
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:30:52 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM, drafterman wrote:

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.

I understand what you mean about being discriminated against for being an atheist but the fact that we have a choice in whether to divulge that information is a big difference. By hiding my gender on DDO, by default, I have to be male. By hiding your religion or lack thereof, you're not identifying with any specific religion (or lack thereof).

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?
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tulle
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4/18/2012 5:48:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?

What I love is how it says "Not sure? Ask your mom" lol :/
yang.
darkkermit
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4/18/2012 5:50:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:48:40 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?

What I love is how it says "Not sure? Ask your mom" lol :/

I think it would be a good feature if specifying your gender was made optional.
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Oryus
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4/18/2012 5:55:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:30:52 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM, drafterman wrote:

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.

I understand what you mean about being discriminated against for being an atheist but the fact that we have a choice in whether to divulge that information is a big difference. By hiding my gender on DDO, by default, I have to be male. By hiding your religion or lack thereof, you're not identifying with any specific religion (or lack thereof).

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?

pronouns?
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
OberHerr
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4/18/2012 5:57:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:55:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:30:52 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM, drafterman wrote:

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.

I understand what you mean about being discriminated against for being an atheist but the fact that we have a choice in whether to divulge that information is a big difference. By hiding my gender on DDO, by default, I have to be male. By hiding your religion or lack thereof, you're not identifying with any specific religion (or lack thereof).

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?

pronouns?

You, cause then it would be it, as opposed to he, or her.
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OberHerr
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4/18/2012 5:58:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I kinda know about this.

And I will say, game makers are starting to move away from the edge.

Heck, even Tomb Raider is shifting to a believable, realistic female character.
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darkkermit
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4/18/2012 6:00:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 5:55:57 PM, Oryus wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:46:51 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 4/18/2012 5:30:52 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 2:29:04 PM, drafterman wrote:

I will mention though, that you brought up the point that I will not be discriminated against based upon my atheism or nationality, because this is not something that can be readily discerned: people can only discriminate against me on those traits if I reveal them. Which means it's my choice. How is that different for gender here on DDO? You don't have to reveal your gender here, so isn't that your choice too? Maybe you can say that you shouldn't have to hide your gender, and I would agree, but why should I have to hide my atheism? If we are going to limit our discussion to DDO, then your gender is an attribute over which you have control and, like my nationality, is not readily discernable.

I understand what you mean about being discriminated against for being an atheist but the fact that we have a choice in whether to divulge that information is a big difference. By hiding my gender on DDO, by default, I have to be male. By hiding your religion or lack thereof, you're not identifying with any specific religion (or lack thereof).

Which makes me wonder, why the hell is DDO designed so that you have to specify your gender?

pronouns?

fair enough. it is a pain to have to write he/she or (s)he. I still don't know OMGjustinbieber's gender. I believe he is a male (he had his avatar as female for awhile).
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thett3
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4/18/2012 6:00:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is pretty true. Guys can be downright obnoxious to women on the internet. Example: "tits or gtfo"
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4/18/2012 6:01:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
But, wait, there are no girls on the internet, just creepers and FBI agents!
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Oryus
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4/18/2012 6:11:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 6:00:27 PM, thett3 wrote:
This is pretty true. Guys can be downright obnoxious to women on the internet. Example: "tits or gtfo"

Yeah. There is THAT MUCH discrimination against women over their looks that there is LITERALLY a short and sweet meme to describe it- and you hear it everywhere.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.
Oryus
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4/18/2012 6:16:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 4/18/2012 1:41:03 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:39:59 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:39:12 PM, tulle wrote:
At 4/18/2012 1:33:17 PM, royalpaladin wrote:

I'm not sure about the article, but I singled it out because it was relevant to DDO. Do you have any examples of men on here being harrassed, abused, or interacted with through a filter because of their gender? Royalpaladin doesn't count lol

What?

The Rate Males thread and its variants :p

Obviously you weren't alone in this, I commented in that thread too.

I take full pride in claiming that I started it? People want pics? They can feel free to post their own :)

I thought it was great. Royal started it pretty much minutes after guys were demanding pics and a rate the females thread. It was hilarious timing.
: : :Tulle: The fool, I purposely don't engage with you because you don't have proper command of the English language.
: :
: : The Fool: It's my English writing. Either way It's okay have a larger vocabulary then you, and a better grasp of language, and you're a woman.
:
: I'm just going to leave this precious struggle nugget right here.