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new mafia rules proposal

philosphical
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10/6/2009 10:03:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
There were some certain things i saw un-fit with recent mafia games. However these are only my opinions. Please post on the ones you agree with or dis-agree with.
I think the mafia game should have a few new rules that can assure fairness, and fun for everyone. Please feel free to add some you may have thought of too.

1. must have reasonable evidence for lynching.

Previously in our mafia game, The townies started off by randomly lynching people due to the fact that, at that point they had in-sufficient evidence for anyone to be mafia and they needed to get started. I personally don't see this as fair. The person being lynched doesn't even get a chance to play, and for no reasonable purpose either.
This rule i think also should apply to the people who just say "i agree. Vote to lynch ______"
I think if someone is in agreement with a lynch, they should post their reason for agreeing with that individual, before voting to lynch.

This is mainly the big rule i thought that needed to be added, but if i see any other significant ones that inflict with fairness, i will post them, and i encourage yall to as well.

please tell me whether you agree or dis-agree with this rule and why
-philosophical
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/6/2009 10:40:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This amounts to the moderator, who knows everything, being obligated to comment on the reasonability of such things-- likely giving off subtle cues that screw up the game.

Also, it's subjective as hell and gives advantages to different parties at different times (and doesn't address the phenomena, random lynching is perfectly reasonable in many contexts).

Here's what you do instead-- when you see someone unreasonably voting, YOU vote for them on that grounds.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
philosphical
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10/6/2009 3:34:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
thanks for all the instructional feedback panda.

yes, raghner, this is directed toward mods, but i wanted to see what your opinions were. And i still don't see how random lynching is fair at all. It really isn't a fair way to play to vote for people to lynched for no reason. Another thing people do is just lynch people because they see that it is the popular thing to do. Most the time they don't even know why they are lynching the person they are voting for.

I think it would at least be reasonable for that individual to provide a reason for the vote in which they are making.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
BrandonClark
Posts: 500
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10/6/2009 3:59:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
That rule is stupid. The one amendment we do need to make is allow whispering i.e. the ability to talk to other players without posting it for everyone to see.
BLACKHAWKS 6-5 lN OVERTIME!!!
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/6/2009 4:19:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The whole point of the game is mob rules vs. secret organization. Such a rule would simply ruin the game. If the mob wants to irrationally lynch someone, then so be it...
BrandonClark
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10/6/2009 4:23:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/6/2009 4:19:42 PM, JBlake wrote:
The whole point of the game is mob rules vs. secret organization. Such a rule would simply ruin the game. If the mob wants to irrationally lynch someone, then so be it...

Exactly. There is also a last resort tactic called rl (random lynch) where a power role leads an rl in an attempt to get mafia.
BLACKHAWKS 6-5 lN OVERTIME!!!
BrandonClark
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10/6/2009 4:55:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/6/2009 4:53:21 PM, Logical-Master wrote:
And just what constitutes as "reasonable" evidence? ;)

LOGICAL-MASTER POSTED FIRST!!!!! HE'S DA BIG BAD MAFIA!!!!!
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philosphical
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10/6/2009 9:28:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/6/2009 4:19:42 PM, JBlake wrote:
The whole point of the game is mob rules vs. secret organization. Such a rule would simply ruin the game. If the mob wants to irrationally lynch someone, then so be it...

The point of the game isn't to win, like all games, it is to have fun. Unfairness does not constitute fun in anyway. Random and un-reasonable lynching sounds fun, until your the one being lynched that way.

And to logical master-
Reasonable meaning you have a good enough reason to believe from what you personally have seen, that the person you are prosecuting is mafia eligible. However ridiculous or serious the reason is, does not matter. But i have seen too many cases where someone will say "i agree" and lynch before they even know what they are lynching.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/7/2009 5:27:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
No.

How is random lynching unfair? Everyone is susceptible to it. Moreover, how it is any more "fair" than any other lynching? The whole point, like JBlake said, is for an informed minority to try and out-smart an uninformed majority through any means the game allows. By randomly lynching with no evidence, the town only hurts itself and therefore has both the right and the responsibility to vote any way they see fit. Who the hell are you to determine how people play and whether or not it's right or wrong? After all, weren't you the guy who LOST the game for the town by being a baby and voting to kill yourself? I mean... talk about fair. And good sportsmanship. I personally think you're still bitter about people voting against you, without you realizing that people vote(ed) that way for a REASON. Everyone has an agenda. You can't phuck with it. There would be no way to implement your rule about lynching except to require that everyone post reasoning, which is stupid as hell because it not only screws with strategy and game play, but also people would just lie and bandwagon anyway.
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wjmelements
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10/7/2009 6:05:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Philosophical, the practice of bandwagoning reveals to the more experienced user understanding affiliations. Such a rule is unnecessary and contrary to the freedom and fun of a mafia game.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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10/8/2009 7:48:06 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Okay first of all this whole thing was to see your guy's OPINION. Instead, you decide to get on here and be a complete b1tch. If you have an opinion, and it involves insulting me, then i don't want to hear it. I already know you'd dis-agree with me on about any issue, and i find so many things about you sick, wrong, and immoral. However that would be my personal opinion, and i wouldn't just get on here and tell you how bad you suck just because of your opinions. That is a low level to stoop to and i, would not on any count do that. Telling me you dis-agree with my idea is perfectly fine, because i have asked you to. It is not res-spectable in the slightest, though, to get on someone and tell them how bad they suck. You can think all sorts of nasty things about me or any one else, but who are you to tell those things to us? If you think those things, then they are better off just staying in your head. I thought of you as a respectable debater, but i think i have just lost all of that respect for you with that last comment. I thank Rahgner and wjmelements, for sharing their opinion on the matter, and nothing more.

"After all, weren't you the guy who LOST the game for the town by being a baby and voting to kill yourself? I mean... talk about fair."

Reminding, you that you also voted for yourself, would be a pointless laugh. However this argument holds nothing because, i was under the inclination that i was not the remaining townie. If this evidence was available to me, you still think i would have proceeded with that vote? Of course not. I was just speeding up an already decided execution.

"There would be no way to implement your rule about lynching except to require that everyone post reasoning, which is stupid as hell because it not only screws with strategy and game play, but also people would just lie and bandwagon anyway"

Okay you have not told me in anyway at all HOW it 'screws with strategy and gameplay'. I would very much like to hear this seeing as that makes no sense at all.
Whether people lie about their reasoning or not, is beside the point. The purpose or for them to have a knowledgeable vote. Its for the same intensive purposes that people under the age of eighteen aren't allowed to vote for president. Would it be fair at all, for a bunch of high school kids who don't know anything about politics, to vote for a president just because he 'looks cool' or everyone else is doing the same thing? We need to have the same thing applying to the mafia game, i believe, to implement proper fairness.

On another note, I will accept that random lynching may be acceptable only at the beginning of the game, to set the game in motion. But no one has attempted to give their opinion on my second propisition to the rule, that their should be a reason for each debater to vote for the individual they are voting to lynch. Random lynching in itself, can be looked as no more than a logical reason for a lynch. But again, what about those who vote without knowing exactly what they are voting for? There should be an implemented rule against people, who generally vote without having a significant reason. This defeats the purpose of the game, if people are getting voted to lynch without fair trial, by people who don't even know why they are voting for that individual in the first place.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Danielle
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10/8/2009 8:14:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
First of all, I think you might have some issues considering that you've taken my response against your bad idea as a personal attack. I don't understand why people who get so uptight about a silly game continue to play it. I apologize for calling you a baby; however, your bizarre suggestion makes it seem as if you are still bothered by something retarded.

Random lynching is part of the game. Isn't that obvious? People vote in the mafia games for a plethora of reasons. Sometimes they have sufficient evidence, sometimes they bandwagon with their team, sometimes they know why they're voting but don't want to share information for strategic purposes, etc. What you're suggesting is to regulate how people vote, which as others have pointed out, completely screws with strategy (i.e. bandwagon, block voting, deception, etc.).

Now, to further prove how you have absolutely no concept for how the game works, you bring up the fact that I voted to lynch myself as an argument for how I'm a bad or selfish player. However, me dying on the first day was the BEST possible thing that could happen for my team (and I knew that because of my role). In fact, I'd argue that me dying on the first day phase was the only reason why my team won. Voting to lynch myself was a smart move. Your vote to lynch yourself lost your team the game. It wasn't inevitable that we would have killed you; trust me - I was on the other side of it planning strategy, and us winning was no guarantee.

No, there was no way for you to know that for sure, but a more mature player wouldn't have risked that selfish move just to spite your team and prove yourself right with so many people left in the game and so much on the line. Why would you even take that risk? Clearly this proves that you ARE a baby in the sense that you chose being spiteful over good sportsmanship. Again - it's just a game. Why take it personally if people voted to lynch you? Of course they did. They weren't on your team. Get over it.

Also, I've already explained how/why forcing people to explain their votes would be useless and screw with strategy. You said it doesn't matter if people would lie about their reasoning? Okay? That is the most retarded thing that I have ever heard. Then what's the point? I could easily name a stupid reason or simply copy and paste what others have said, or what my mafia teammates suggested, etc. If you can lie or make up your so-called "knowledge" behind the vote, then it's an absolutely useless idea.

I think what's unfair is your suggestion, as it doesn't give players the freedom to vote however the hell they want or use whatever strategy they want, including mindless voting (which is often very telling). Sure it sucks for the person who gets lynched "for no reason," but you're ignoring the fact that there always *IS* a reason that people vote the way that they do -- they just don't reveal that reason. That's what makes the game interesting and allows people to figure out the motives of others. Those who are seemingly "randomly" lynched can suck it up as part of the game and understand that it's simply part of another player's/group's strategy. Oh - and don't call me a bitch just because I called you out on your BS idea. Get over it. Seriously. I'm sorry you felt attacked, but your comments were also unnecessary.
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philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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10/8/2009 10:10:11 AM
Posted: 7 years ago

I think what's unfair is your suggestion, as it doesn't give players the freedom to vote however the hell they want or use whatever strategy they want, including mindless voting (which is often very telling). Sure it sucks for the person who gets lynched "for no reason," but you're ignoring the fact that there always *IS* a reason that people vote the way that they do -- they just don't reveal that reason. That's what makes the game interesting and allows people to figure out the motives of others. Those who are seemingly "randomly" lynched can suck it up as part of the game and understand that it's simply part of another player's/group's strategy. Oh - and don't call me a bitch just because I called you out on your BS idea. Get over it. Seriously. I'm sorry you felt attacked, but your comments were also unnecessary.

Lwerd, the first thing you mis-construe, is that I WAS NOT RANDOM LYNCHED. You keep using that argument as point to my 'immaturity' and 'holding it against' those who lynched me. But if you actually read anything from the mafia games, i was not random lynched. I was lynched, and for what they thought was a logical reason, which is perfectly acceptable by me. This rule proposal was made according to toastofdestiny's random lynch at the beginning of the game, and leaf-rod's constant "i agree, vote that person" without exclamation. This has nothing to do with me at all. If you wish to use that as a point, then please find me one example where this proposal has been used against me at all in the mafia game. I was basically inactive until the last day phase, so you really can't say i am trying to hold anything on anyone.

"No, there was no way for you to know that for sure, but a more mature player wouldn't have risked that selfish move just to spite your team and prove yourself right with so many people left in the game and so much on the line."

Oh yeah that makes sense! Especially since practically anybody active was already a cultist.
ME pointing out that YOUR lynching yourself, was not to prove selfishness in anyway at all. Both of us thoguht, that at that time it was the right thing to do. Either way what happened in th previous mafia game is not what i am trying to do. I am purely trying to propose a new rule, and you bringing up anything from the previous mafia game, whether you see it as so or not, is a personal attack.

"Why take it personally if people voted to lynch you? Of course they did. They weren't on your team. Get over it. "

Again, when once have i taken it personally? You assume to much. This proposal had nothing in the slightest to do with any actions i have taken in the mafia game, so stop bringing that up. Again, that, is what leads your 'responses' to personal attacks. Whether you meant anything by it or not is not the point.

"You said it doesn't matter if people would lie about their reasoning? Okay? That is the most retarded thing that I have ever heard. Then what's the point? I could easily name a stupid reason or simply copy and paste what others have said, or what my mafia teammates suggested, etc"

Okay you still missed the point. The voters should be educated about their vote! I've said the same thing i believe 4 or 5 times now. Lying about your vote doesn't matter, as long the vote has a logical explanation. Whether it is truth or lie is up to the rest of the players to decide. The sole purpose of this would be to note that the person actually knows what's going on and why the person is getting prosecuted.

And as to your last argument, people stay mildy in-active, then just get on and vote according to others. That, is what is messed up. They don't even know what the fvck is going on when they vote.
And i called you a B1tch because of the abusive comments you read, not because of you don't have the same opinions as me. I haven't called any one else this, have i? don't cry too hard, i am just some on-line guy you'll never even meet. suck it up
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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10/8/2009 10:54:44 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Philosophical ,you've played once. I've played on all the games. So has Lwerd. We've both modded games. That said, stfu
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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10/8/2009 10:57:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
In a nicer way to put it:

Removing random lynches and forcing everyone to post a reason for their activity would be an unfair burden on the mafia. It would also make the game significantly less fun if we have to provide analyses for everything we do.

In short, random lynching and voting without reason is a vital part of the game. If you remove that, there is no more game.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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10/8/2009 11:05:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Simply put: There's no way to implement that stupid rule; There's no legitimate reason to implement that stupid rule; No mod with any common sense would mandate that stupid rule; And nobody is going to abide by that stupid rule. Let's move on.
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philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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10/8/2009 6:26:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/8/2009 10:54:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Philosophical ,you've played once. I've played on all the games. So has Lwerd. We've both modded games. That said, stfu

Actually I-am-a-panda, i have played twice. I really would have liked to hear you say "stfu" to my face in person. THAT would have been really interesting for you bud. Fourteen year old thinks he's a tough guy because he said the F word.
And Lwerd, basically we are going nowhere. You are entitled to your own opinion about the rule. After all this was all about what you the debaters thoughth of the rule. Unfortunately some people like to be aggresive and rude with their opinions. Be as you may. Moving on? In agreement.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Logical-Master
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10/8/2009 6:39:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Eh, philosophical, for what it's worth, I do remember you saying that you loved being right after you lynched yourself off. To me, this seem like you were as interested in your team as you were your own ego. That said, that's all water under the bridge. What's important is whether or not your idea is any good. Honestly, I don't think so. It's in good intention, but the problem is what constitutes as reasonable evidence to lynch someone. Everyone has a different idea of what reasonable evidence is, hence it's pretty subjective policy which goes against the very intentions of the game itself. If you want, you're free to challenge me to a debate on the matter.
Logical-Master
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10/8/2009 6:40:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/8/2009 6:39:26 PM, Logical-Master wrote:
Eh, philosophical, for what it's worth, I do remember you saying that you loved being right after you lynched yourself off. To me, this seem like you were not as interested in your team's success as you were your own ego. That said, that's all water under the bridge. What's important is whether or not your idea is any good. Honestly, I don't think so. It's in good intention, but the problem is what constitutes as reasonable evidence to lynch someone. Everyone has a different idea of what reasonable evidence is, hence it's pretty subjective policy which goes against the very intentions of the game itself. If you want, you're free to challenge me to a debate on the matter.

Edited for typo.
philosphical
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10/8/2009 6:51:15 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"Eh, philosophical, for what it's worth, I do remember you saying that you loved being right after you lynched yourself off. To me, this seem like you were as interested in your team as you were your own ego. "

Well at that point, i wasn't even sure who was on my team in the first place. And my 'team' at that point really didn't seem to hurt to let me go anyway.

"That said, that's all water under the bridge. What's important is whether or not your idea is any good. Honestly, I don't think so. It's in good intention, but the problem is what constitutes as reasonable evidence to lynch someone. Everyone has a different idea of what reasonable evidence is, hence it's pretty subjective policy which goes against the very intentions of the game itself."

Well, you see, that's just the point. Everyone has their own opinions on what reasonable is. It is in my opinion that it is not reasonable, and i just wanted to see if any one thought the same. Apparently not though. (sigh) But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as i see it.

" If you want, you're free to challenge me to a debate on the matter."

I think i would like to take the debate. I first have to see if i can find enough calm space inside my mental to do it though. I know alot of people will dis-agree with me, and i will get alot of commentor debates as usual. I am not a very popular debater on this site, and i don't know if I can mentally deal with more drama from these individuals. But don't take that as a no. Chances are i probably will accept, if no one else does by the time my mind is made up.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
I-am-a-panda
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10/9/2009 12:02:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/8/2009 6:26:12 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 10/8/2009 10:54:44 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Philosophical ,you've played once. I've played on all the games. So has Lwerd. We've both modded games. That said, stfu

Actually I-am-a-panda, i have played twice.

Oh stop the show, twice!

I really would have liked to hear you say "stfu" to my face in person. THAT would have been really interesting for you bud. Fourteen year old thinks he's a tough guy because he said the F word.

20 odd year old thinks he's a tough guy picking on said 14 year old.

And Lwerd, basically we are going nowhere. You are entitled to your own opinion about the rule. After all this was all about what you the debaters thoughth of the rule. Unfortunately some people like to be aggresive and rude with their opinions. Be as you may. Moving on? In agreement.

Dude, if we needed considerable evidence the game wouldn't work. "I'm cop, Lwerd is Mafia". Is that considerable evidence? What's if he isn't cop?

The game is about lying and perception, and random lynching is what makes those fun.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
philosphical
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10/9/2009 9:54:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago

20 odd year old thinks he's a tough guy picking on said 14 year old.

We've already had this dicussion. Did you not get it the fisrt time? i am seventeen.


Dude, if we needed considerable evidence the game wouldn't work. "I'm cop, Lwerd is Mafia". Is that considerable evidence? What's if he isn't cop?

That makes

absolutely

no sense. according to hwat i am talking about, people lynching for no reason
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
I-am-a-panda
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10/9/2009 9:57:13 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/9/2009 9:54:59 AM, philosphical wrote:

20 odd year old thinks he's a tough guy picking on said 14 year old.

We've already had this dicussion. Did you not get it the fisrt time? i am seventeen.


20 odd year old --> 3 years give or take



Dude, if we needed considerable evidence the game wouldn't work. "I'm cop, Lwerd is Mafia". Is that considerable evidence? What's if he isn't cop?

That makes

absolutely

no sense. according to hwat i am talking about, people lynching for no reason

Its' called cop claim. *facepalm*
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Danielle
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10/9/2009 10:26:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Philosophical, so far, nobody has agreed with your proposition. Differing opinions are one thing, but I think it's a fact that this idea is a bad one. Since nobody agrees with you, I think it's fair to assume that this idea will never be implemented or followed (nor could it be), so let's just all leave this thread alone.
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philosphical
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10/9/2009 3:46:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/9/2009 10:26:18 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Philosophical, so far, nobody has agreed with your proposition. Differing opinions are one thing, but I think it's a fact that this idea is a bad one. Since nobody agrees with you, I think it's fair to assume that this idea will never be implemented or followed (nor could it be), so let's just all leave this thread alone.

correction: "in your opinion" this idea is a bad one. And in a few others too. If you don't agree with it, simply just stop posting in here. How is this thread still being active harming you in any way? But i do agree. My hopes and dreams for a better mafia game are pointless so this forum topic might as well just shrivel and die.... :(
Alas that is after Panda is done trying to be smart and tough.

(keep working buddy! Almost there!)
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!