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I hate liars

000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/20/2013 3:52:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I hate people who lie in arguments in order to win - lie about what your position is or lie about the facts supporting theirs. If you can't win while being honest, then just admit you're wrong, or at worst don't say anything.

- end rant
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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4/20/2013 4:03:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I, being a pathological liar in rl, completely agree.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
TUF
Posts: 21,310
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4/20/2013 4:08:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
For The purpose of debate, continue the argument, but change your philosophy outside the debate.
"I've got to go and grab a shirt" ~ Airmax1227
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/20/2013 4:10:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:08:14 PM, TUF wrote:
For The purpose of debate, continue the argument, but change your philosophy outside the debate.

why? That pretty much robs debating of all practical function, if someone is proven wrong yet he tries his best to obfuscate the issue by introducing lies, until the truth becomes unrecognizable and he can claim victory.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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4/20/2013 4:13:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
here's an example of the type of lying I hate, courtesy of Greyparrot:

At 4/20/2013 3:46:54 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/20/2013 3:31:37 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:22:29 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/20/2013 2:14:46 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
"The liberals want freedom to act in the spiritual realm; they oppose censorship, they oppose government control of ideas, of the arts, of the press, of education (note their concern with "academic freedom")."

Rand had a major misunderstanding. Liberals want censorship through standards of political correctness (formally imposed in textbooks and government, by social pressure elsewhere); they want government control of ideas through propagandizing a green agenda, political correctness, and strong favoritism to approved media; the government funds art of wich they approve, they won't allow home school and impose Federal standards, conservative professors are deliberately excluded from hiring.

I find it difficult to respect anyone small minded enough to make PC an issue. Would it be clearer if we just called it "basic civility" instead? You're not the one who determines what is offensive. The person to whom you direct your comments will make that determination - and so if you have no problem refraining from calling your parents "idiots" or calling your professor a "dimwit" based on their relative aversion to those terms, then I'm sure you can refrain from calling African Americans "the blacks" or Asians "the chinks" without being a pissant about it.

Ideas being off limits by threat of social ostracization is not an issue?

How dare you imply that welfare and food stamp and other giveouts be immune from scrutiny because of PC.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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4/20/2013 4:19:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Someone's a liar if they're wrong? Wow, you have very high standards for humanity's intellectual competence. I'm satisfied if the average person can marginally respond to sunlight, let alone expect them to have a relationship with reality.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/20/2013 5:34:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You should love liars, FDR lied all the time.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
YYW
Posts: 36,426
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4/21/2013 9:26:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/21/2013 7:13:04 PM, Ren wrote:
What is debate, if not for wonderfully entertaining aspects like Devil's Advocacy?

Productive conversation.
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YYW
Posts: 36,426
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4/21/2013 9:30:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 3:52:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
I hate people who lie in arguments in order to win - lie about what your position is or lie about the facts supporting theirs. If you can't win while being honest, then just admit you're wrong, or at worst don't say anything.

- end rant

There are some who lie because they are trying to win the debate, and others who lie without intending to lie -because they either are stupid or are ignorant of the truth. It is my general experience that most people who lie in debates do not so with volition. They are just dim... but I generally think most people are dim. So there's that.

There is an old adage from Napoleon I think that goes something to the effect of "Never attribute to malice what can be otherwise be explained by incompetence." Something to think about...
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RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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4/22/2013 2:02:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:10:33 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 4/20/2013 4:08:14 PM, TUF wrote:
For The purpose of debate, continue the argument, but change your philosophy outside the debate.

why? That pretty much robs debating of all practical function, if someone is proven wrong yet he tries his best to obfuscate the issue by introducing lies, until the truth becomes unrecognizable and he can claim victory.

Debating isn't about who's right, it's about who can best prove their point -- being right just helps.
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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4/22/2013 3:14:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
that's a bit short for a rant. But to the point never-the-less.

If there are two sides in a debate, then it is inevitable that one will be right and the other wrong regardless of whether we know who. This means that one side will be lying and the other telling the truth even if both parties believe that they are telling the truth. There is no escape from the lies in the debating world, its just something that people should be aware of, so any sort of malicious lies, which I assume you are talking about, do not happen.
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Buddamoose
Posts: 19,450
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4/22/2013 3:25:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
SUSPENDE OMNIBUS MENDACIBUS

nac
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Pennington
Posts: 1,286
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4/29/2013 1:41:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 4:19:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Someone's a liar if they're wrong? Wow, you have very high standards for humanity's intellectual competence. I'm satisfied if the average person can marginally respond to sunlight, let alone expect them to have a relationship with reality.

LOL
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/29/2013 4:52:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/20/2013 3:52:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
I hate people who lie in arguments in order to win - lie about what your position is or lie about the facts supporting theirs. If you can't win while being honest, then just admit you're wrong, or at worst don't say anything.

- end rant

I'm not sure what to make of your aversion to lying. In another thread, you said, "There is no such thing as an objective reality, and there is no such thing as objective truth (as far as we're concerned)."[1] If there's no such thing as objective reality or objective truth, then how can anything be a lie?

1. https://www.debate.org...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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4/29/2013 5:00:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/29/2013 4:52:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/20/2013 3:52:52 PM, 000ike wrote:
I hate people who lie in arguments in order to win - lie about what your position is or lie about the facts supporting theirs. If you can't win while being honest, then just admit you're wrong, or at worst don't say anything.

- end rant

I'm not sure what to make of your aversion to lying. In another thread, you said, "There is no such thing as an objective reality, and there is no such thing as objective truth (as far as we're concerned)."[1] If there's no such thing as objective reality or objective truth, then how can anything be a lie?

1. https://www.debate.org...

Ha I was thinking this too
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler