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What is it you value most?

Xer
Posts: 7,776
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11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 7:52:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:49:39 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Me:
#1. Reason
#2. Freedom
#3. Happiness

Hmmm a libertarian who values reason over freedom thats rather odd
Freedomaniac
Posts: 365
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11/29/2009 7:54:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

How would you now that without first applying reason?
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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11/29/2009 7:54:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

Yep.
Freedom!
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 7:55:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:54:14 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

Yep.
Freedom!

Freedom cannot exist without order
Freedomaniac
Posts: 365
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11/29/2009 7:55:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:52:58 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:49:39 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Me:
#1. Reason
#2. Freedom
#3. Happiness

Hmmm a libertarian who values reason over freedom thats rather odd

It is first through reason that I have found freedom to even be high on the list.
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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11/29/2009 7:57:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:55:16 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:58 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:49:39 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Me:
#1. Reason
#2. Freedom
#3. Happiness

Hmmm a libertarian who values reason over freedom thats rather odd

It is first through reason that I have found freedom to even be high on the list.

'Tis through some type of freedom in which you gained the capacity to utilize your reason.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 7:57:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:55:16 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:58 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:49:39 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Me:
#1. Reason
#2. Freedom
#3. Happiness

Hmmm a libertarian who values reason over freedom thats rather odd

It is first through reason that I have found freedom to even be high on the list.

In order to reason you need freedom. In order for freedom you need Order. So, Order is most valued.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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11/29/2009 7:59:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:57:40 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:55:16 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:58 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:49:39 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
Me:
#1. Reason
#2. Freedom
#3. Happiness

Hmmm a libertarian who values reason over freedom thats rather odd

It is first through reason that I have found freedom to even be high on the list.

In order to reason you need freedom. In order for freedom you need Order. So, Order is most valued.

'Tis agreeable. (I feel like panda)
Freedomaniac
Posts: 365
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11/29/2009 8:00:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:55:13 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:54:14 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

Yep.
Freedom!


Freedom cannot exist without order

This is true. But order also cannot exist without freedom.
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:01:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:00:18 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:55:13 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:54:14 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

Yep.
Freedom!


Freedom cannot exist without order

This is true. But order also cannot exist without freedom.

Order can very well exist without freedom. It might be that everyone is dead but order would still exist in extinction, but freedom wouldn't.
Freedomaniac
Posts: 365
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11/29/2009 8:02:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:01:32 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 8:00:18 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:55:13 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:54:14 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:52:23 PM, Nags wrote:
If I throw you in a prison cell and lock you for in there for an indefinite amount of time without any light or sound, and only enough food and water to survive - I doubt you will be valuing reason over freedom.

Yep.
Freedom!


Freedom cannot exist without order

This is true. But order also cannot exist without freedom.

Order can very well exist without freedom. It might be that everyone is dead but order would still exist in extinction, but freedom wouldn't.

Then what is it exactly you call order?
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/29/2009 8:04:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 7:57:40 PM, wonderwoman wrote:

In order to reason you need freedom. In order for freedom you need Order. So, Order is most valued.

You are stranded on an island, order will help you survive?

To value anything, one must first reason why it is valuable to them. The freedom to do so is of course necessary, though without a mind capable or free, the rest is moot. Order is a corollary of minds using reason and freedom to express that.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/29/2009 8:05:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:02:34 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:

Then what is it exactly you call order?

Causality maybe? Plenty of room for equivocation in that one.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:06:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:04:40 PM, Puck wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:57:40 PM, wonderwoman wrote:

In order to reason you need freedom. In order for freedom you need Order. So, Order is most valued.

You are stranded on an island, order will help you survive?

To value anything, one must first reason why it is valuable to them. The freedom to do so is of course necessary, though without a mind capable or free, the rest is moot. Order is a corollary of minds using reason and freedom to express that.

Yes, order will help you survive. Because with order comes the ability to reason. With the ability to reason comes freedom. Without order neither can exist successfully.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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11/29/2009 8:08:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:06:25 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 8:04:40 PM, Puck wrote:
At 11/29/2009 7:57:40 PM, wonderwoman wrote:

In order to reason you need freedom. In order for freedom you need Order. So, Order is most valued.

You are stranded on an island, order will help you survive?

To value anything, one must first reason why it is valuable to them. The freedom to do so is of course necessary, though without a mind capable or free, the rest is moot. Order is a corollary of minds using reason and freedom to express that.

Yes, order will help you survive.

Ya really going to have to define what you mean by order then.
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:09:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:02:34 PM, Freedomaniac wrote:

Then what is it exactly you call order?

Well what type of order are u talking about?
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:12:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:09:09 PM, Puck wrote:
To put it another way, I presumed you were talking about order in a social context, and that's what I addressed.

order the contrary or opposite of chaos.
Freedomaniac
Posts: 365
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11/29/2009 8:13:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Haha, perhaps it is a circular argument that could go many ways. But I'm still sticking with reason.
I am a moosepotomus, here me quack! *Grr, ruff, moo*

I am my own God and the free market is my Jesus.

http://freedomaniac.wordpress.com...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/29/2009 8:13:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Given freedom and eminently reasonable people, some form of order will emerge, an I would imagine an order much more reasonable than one imposed without freedom and the value of reason as givens.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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11/29/2009 8:13:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:12:38 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 8:09:09 PM, Puck wrote:
To put it another way, I presumed you were talking about order in a social context, and that's what I addressed.

order the contrary or opposite of chaos.

Define chaos.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:14:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I can see how reason can help determine order and freedoms. But it is essentially order that controls reason and freedom and allows them to thrive
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:14:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:13:54 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 11/29/2009 8:12:38 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 11/29/2009 8:09:09 PM, Puck wrote:
To put it another way, I presumed you were talking about order in a social context, and that's what I addressed.

order the contrary or opposite of chaos.

Define chaos.

Is this some sort of definition battle?
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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11/29/2009 8:15:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:13:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Given freedom and eminently reasonable people, some form of order will emerge, an I would imagine an order much more reasonable than one imposed without freedom and the value of reason as givens.

What makes someone a reasonable people?
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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11/29/2009 8:15:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
WW, you still haven't given a definition of order, which is necesarry. Freedom and reason are pretty straightforward, order is not.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/29/2009 8:16:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 11/29/2009 8:14:07 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
I can see how reason can help determine order and freedoms. But it is essentially order that controls reason and freedom and allows them to thrive

I suppose it is the "ordering"/discriminating nature of ourselves is that from which reason comes, so I suppose I agree in that sense.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."