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Can you know anything for sure?

DetectableNinja
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6/28/2013 7:59:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Maybe this belongs in Philosophy?
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
GOP
Posts: 453
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6/28/2013 8:06:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 7:59:54 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Maybe this belongs in Philosophy?

Yeah, but come on. Misc is the most active place.
GOP
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6/28/2013 8:08:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:06:20 PM, GOP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:59:54 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Maybe this belongs in Philosophy?

Yeah, but come on. Misc is the most active place.

one of the most active places*
DetectableNinja
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6/28/2013 8:14:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:08:10 PM, GOP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:06:20 PM, GOP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:59:54 PM, DetectableNinja wrote:
Maybe this belongs in Philosophy?

Yeah, but come on. Misc is the most active place.

one of the most active places*

Not really among the people who are actually serious about discussing questions like yours, though.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/28/2013 8:31:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Most certainly hun. What about you?
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 8:31:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

"Sure" as in 100% certain? No, I would say probably not.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
RyuuKyuzo
Posts: 3,074
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6/28/2013 8:34:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You can be certain that there isn't nothingness -- that is to say, there are things which exist in some sense of the word. Maybe the objective world is just a mirage, but that still confirms the existence of a mirage and an observer (or at least observation).
If you're reading this, you're awesome and you should feel awesome.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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6/28/2013 8:40:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I define Google as a search engine.
I know I just defined Google as a search engine.
Therefore I can personally know I defined Google as a search engine for sure.

I rest my case.
Nolite Timere
TULIP
Posts: 398
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6/28/2013 8:50:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:32:38 PM, benevolent wrote:
tulip you have imaginary friends.

Are you really gonna do this again my friend? 0_o
"We conclude that our salvation is of The Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom He regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject Him. God's saving grace effects what He intends to effect by it. ~ R. C. Sproul
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.
Tsar of DDO
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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6/28/2013 9:42:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

So, I was sort of trolling... but only sort of.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

This isn't going to answer your response in a really satisfactory way, but here's what I've got:

If a lie is something other than the truth, and the truth is and can only be one thing -which is to say that there can not be multiple truths, and where there is one truth, all else which is not that must be false- then because the truth of reality is over and above our grasp because we are always already filtering information through our perception, it cannot be the case that that which we perceive can be verified as the truth because objective truth is unreachable. So, maybe everything is a big lie, or maybe not -we cannot know one way or another because we cannot help but perceive.

*as a side note, I have been drinking, so yeah*

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

Cheers.
Tsar of DDO
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 10:14:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 9:42:10 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

So, I was sort of trolling... but only sort of.

It seemed a bit of that nature, but like you said, only sort of.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

This isn't going to answer your response in a really satisfactory way, but here's what I've got:

If a lie is something other than the truth, and the truth is and can only be one thing -which is to say that there can not be multiple truths, and where there is one truth, all else which is not that must be false- then because the truth of reality is over and above our grasp because we are always already filtering information through our perception, it cannot be the case that that which we perceive can be verified as the truth because objective truth is unreachable. So, maybe everything is a big lie, or maybe not -we cannot know one way or another because we cannot help but perceive.

What I like about the argument is that most skeptics tend to argue against the justification part of knowledge while accepting the truth part of it. Your argument attacks truth all together.

I'm, however, unsure about it. I think your counter argument brings your original back to justification and thus away from it's original skepticism of truth. You say we can't verify that what we perceive is the truth, but I think from my argument we could still argue some form of truth can be retained regardless of whether it be objective or not. I still think you argument doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that truth is beyond our grasp, only that objective truth, or noumenal truth is. This still leaves open this discussion for mediated truths. For example, you could say "horse" has the letter "h" in it, but thing "horse" doesn't actually contain any letters. Letters are just an abstract thing we use to denote a horse. The claim that "horse" has an "h" in it is true only through our mediation with language. In non-mediated terms it's not a true claim, but just because it's not literally true does not mean we're making a mistake in claiming "horse" has an "h". In the same way you could argue, even though everything we believe about reality only comes to us through perception, and thus doesn't truly represent truth, noumenal reality doesn't need to be immediate to us. Representations are fine.

I think the argument could remain that we can't be sure of any truths but not that truth itself is beyond us as your argument posits.


*as a side note, I have been drinking, so yeah*

Understood lol.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

Cheers.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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6/28/2013 10:16:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

*regurgitates Kant*

I kid I kid.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
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6/28/2013 10:20:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 10:14:05 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:42:10 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

So, I was sort of trolling... but only sort of.

It seemed a bit of that nature, but like you said, only sort of.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

This isn't going to answer your response in a really satisfactory way, but here's what I've got:

If a lie is something other than the truth, and the truth is and can only be one thing -which is to say that there can not be multiple truths, and where there is one truth, all else which is not that must be false- then because the truth of reality is over and above our grasp because we are always already filtering information through our perception, it cannot be the case that that which we perceive can be verified as the truth because objective truth is unreachable. So, maybe everything is a big lie, or maybe not -we cannot know one way or another because we cannot help but perceive.

What I like about the argument is that most skeptics tend to argue against the justification part of knowledge while accepting the truth part of it. Your argument attacks truth all together.

I'm, however, unsure about it. I think your counter argument brings your original back to justification and thus away from it's original skepticism of truth. You say we can't verify that what we perceive is the truth, but I think from my argument we could still argue some form of truth can be retained regardless of whether it be objective or not. I still think you argument doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that truth is beyond our grasp, only that objective truth, or noumenal truth is. This still leaves open this discussion for mediated truths. For example, you could say "horse" has the letter "h" in it, but thing "horse" doesn't actually contain any letters. Letters are just an abstract thing we use to denote a horse. The claim that "horse" has an "h" in it is true only through our mediation with language. In non-mediated terms it's not a true claim, but just because it's not literally true does not mean we're making a mistake in claiming "horse" has an "h". In the same way you could argue, even though everything we believe about reality only comes to us through perception, and thus doesn't truly represent truth, noumenal reality doesn't need to be immediate to us. Representations are fine.

I think the argument could remain that we can't be sure of any truths but not that truth itself is beyond us as your argument posits.

When I was semi-trolling I was arguing one thing, then I changed the argument to something that I could actually prove when I was no longer trolling.

This isn't really a subject area I'm especially interested in, and as such it's not something I've ever devoted an extensive amount of time to study... you and Noumena probably both are much better equipped to argue this than me.

And yes, I am happy to assail even the idea of the possibility of there being a "truth" in any form -but that is for another evening ;) ...maybe


*as a side note, I have been drinking, so yeah*

Understood lol.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

Cheers.
Tsar of DDO
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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6/28/2013 10:58:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Yes

I'm a bench
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YYW
Posts: 36,252
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6/28/2013 10:59:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 10:58:06 PM, imabench wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Yes

I'm a bench

If you are a bench, then I am a book shelf or an ottoman.
Tsar of DDO
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 10:59:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 10:16:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

*regurgitates Kant*

I kid I kid.

Yeah, I did didn't I? To be honest, I think I'm a little too caught up in Kant.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 11:02:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 10:20:38 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 10:14:05 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:42:10 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 9:33:44 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:55:52 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:31:36 PM, TULIP wrote:
At 6/28/2013 8:20:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 6/28/2013 7:50:19 PM, GOP wrote:
Can you?

Everything is all a big lie, of course.

What is? And why is it?

Beyond our consciousness of our own thoughts, all else is based on perception, which is fallible. Ergo, everything is a big lie.

So, I was sort of trolling... but only sort of.

It seemed a bit of that nature, but like you said, only sort of.

I mostly agree with you but what do you think of the thesis that, though we can't know anything as it really is, our perception has objective agreement with reality as it truly is, enough to give us an objective knowledge over the realm of things as they appear to be? In other words, nothing can be known as it really is since mediation is required via perception, but the mediated understanding we do possess is a world of it's own, in which we do possess objective knowledge. So the need for perception makes true reality unknown, but perception gives us a mediated representation of reality. The mediated representation is a form of true reality, and facts and truths and knowledge exist in this sense. Or, to really sum it up, things in the noumenal realm can't be known but things in the phenomenal world can be. This would mean that perception doesn't make everything a lie, it only makes everything we believe untrue in the truest sense but nevertheless true in some form.

This isn't going to answer your response in a really satisfactory way, but here's what I've got:

If a lie is something other than the truth, and the truth is and can only be one thing -which is to say that there can not be multiple truths, and where there is one truth, all else which is not that must be false- then because the truth of reality is over and above our grasp because we are always already filtering information through our perception, it cannot be the case that that which we perceive can be verified as the truth because objective truth is unreachable. So, maybe everything is a big lie, or maybe not -we cannot know one way or another because we cannot help but perceive.

What I like about the argument is that most skeptics tend to argue against the justification part of knowledge while accepting the truth part of it. Your argument attacks truth all together.

I'm, however, unsure about it. I think your counter argument brings your original back to justification and thus away from it's original skepticism of truth. You say we can't verify that what we perceive is the truth, but I think from my argument we could still argue some form of truth can be retained regardless of whether it be objective or not. I still think you argument doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that truth is beyond our grasp, only that objective truth, or noumenal truth is. This still leaves open this discussion for mediated truths. For example, you could say "horse" has the letter "h" in it, but thing "horse" doesn't actually contain any letters. Letters are just an abstract thing we use to denote a horse. The claim that "horse" has an "h" in it is true only through our mediation with language. In non-mediated terms it's not a true claim, but just because it's not literally true does not mean we're making a mistake in claiming "horse" has an "h". In the same way you could argue, even though everything we believe about reality only comes to us through perception, and thus doesn't truly represent truth, noumenal reality doesn't need to be immediate to us. Representations are fine.

I think the argument could remain that we can't be sure of any truths but not that truth itself is beyond us as your argument posits.

When I was semi-trolling I was arguing one thing, then I changed the argument to something that I could actually prove when I was no longer trolling.

Oh. Got it.

This isn't really a subject area I'm especially interested in, and as such it's not something I've ever devoted an extensive amount of time to study... you and Noumena probably both are much better equipped to argue this than me.

But it has so much practical benefit...Jk.

And yes, I am happy to assail even the idea of the possibility of there being a "truth" in any form -but that is for another evening ;) ...maybe


*as a side note, I have been drinking, so yeah*

Understood lol.

By "know" and "known", I mean known for certain.

I'm playing devils advocate, but I wanted to get a conversation going.

Cheers.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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6/28/2013 11:07:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 10:59:24 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 10:16:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
*regurgitates Kant*

I kid I kid.

Yeah, I did didn't I? To be honest, I think I'm a little too caught up in Kant.

You should see what comes after him. Super exciting (except Hegel- fcck Hegel).
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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6/28/2013 11:15:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/28/2013 11:07:12 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 6/28/2013 10:59:24 PM, phantom wrote:
At 6/28/2013 10:16:05 PM, Noumena wrote:
*regurgitates Kant*

I kid I kid.

Yeah, I did didn't I? To be honest, I think I'm a little too caught up in Kant.

You should see what comes after him. Super exciting (except Hegel- fcck Hegel).

I read Peter Singer's intro to Hegel. Can't say it made me want to read any of Hegel's actual works. I'm starting to get into Schopenhauer.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)