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relative truth?

Kleptin
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12/14/2009 5:14:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Depends on what truth.
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It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

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wonderwoman
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12/14/2009 5:19:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
well what does the word truth imply to you? And when I say that all truth is relative how does that apply or if I say all truth is objective.
mattrodstrom
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12/14/2009 5:32:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/14/2009 5:19:11 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
well what does the word truth imply to you? And when I say that all truth is relative how does that apply or if I say all truth is objective.

I think statements can be true only relative to the assumptions drawn from experience.

generally "relative truth" would be acknowledging that people have different assumptions relative to the matter at hand

Objective truth, would be that which is built upon natural/universal assumptions.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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12/14/2009 5:33:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
generally "relative truth" would be acknowledging that people have different assumptions relevant to the matter at hand
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
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12/14/2009 7:04:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm currently entertaining the idea of truth brought up by the Hegalian Dialectic - that there exists an unreachable objective Truth. At the same time there also exists what is accepted to be true - the truth (lowercase). This truth is a 'thesis', and when it is attacked by an antithesis in open discourse there is created a new synthesis which takes over as truth. As we continue this infinite cycle of thesis+antithesis=synthesis=truth=thesis+antithesis... we get closer to an objective Truth.

I also kinda doubt the Truth exists and the Hegalian Dialectic is true in that we form new 'truths' that are inherently better than previous ones (in science these describe the world better, in politics they are more just, etc.) but that we just advance without necessarily heading towards an objective Truth, but a better society.
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Our demise and industrial destruction
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Only exists in your head, as already shown.

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reveal why you answer with a question mark
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Because it was a question.

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popculturepooka
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12/14/2009 8:33:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/14/2009 7:58:45 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 12/14/2009 7:29:58 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Of course truth is objective, epistemological relativism is self-refuting.

How so?

Saying "truth is subjective/relative" is making an absolute/objective statement about truth.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/14/2009 8:42:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/14/2009 8:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/14/2009 7:58:45 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 12/14/2009 7:29:58 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Of course truth is objective, epistemological relativism is self-refuting.

How so?

Saying "truth is subjective/relative" is making an absolute/objective statement about truth.

When I was talking of "truth" i was talking of the concept and how we apply it and think of it (by we, i mostly mean me lol).

I was talking of how I think, on this topic, I'm fairly well assured.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 1:20:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2009 8:42:55 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 12/14/2009 8:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/14/2009 7:58:45 PM, wonderwoman wrote:
At 12/14/2009 7:29:58 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Of course truth is objective, epistemological relativism is self-refuting.

How so?

Saying "truth is subjective/relative" is making an absolute/objective statement about truth.

When I was talking of "truth" i was talking of the concept and how we apply it and think of it (by we, i mostly mean me lol).

I was talking of how I think, on this topic, I'm fairly well assured.

Truth is objective and absolute. If you say "there is no absolute truth," I would say, "Are you absolutely sure of that?" or, "Is that absolutely true?"
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 7:58:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 7:52:45 PM, Ronhawk wrote:
Truth and fact are very different.

Can you give an example of each, then?
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/30/2013 9:14:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

That's not a relative truth. It's simply false. In no way does your preference of ice cream actually taste better. The correct statement would be, "mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better to me than does butter pecan ice cream". That's true but not in any relative way. Since taste in ice cream is subjective, it is false to state one type of ice cream is better than another, and not true in any sense.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 9:16:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:14:11 PM, phantom wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

That's not a relative truth. It's simply false. In no way does your preference of ice cream actually taste better.

The claim wasn't that my preference tastes better, but that the mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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12/30/2013 9:17:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:16:07 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:14:11 PM, phantom wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

That's not a relative truth. It's simply false. In no way does your preference of ice cream actually taste better.

The claim wasn't that my preference tastes better, but that the mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better.

I know. I was giving an example of a true claim, whereas your claim was outright false.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 9:17:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."

Then wouldn't your statement "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream" be an opinion, rather than a 'subjective truth?' To claim that such a statement is a 'truth' would be seen as unreasonable by most people, I think, since taste preferences are widely viewed as subjective, but not, however, 'truth.'
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 9:20:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:17:54 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."

Then wouldn't your statement "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream" be an opinion, rather than a 'subjective truth?' To claim that such a statement is a 'truth' would be seen as unreasonable by most people, I think, since taste preferences are widely viewed as subjective, but not, however, 'truth.'

Back in grade school (6th grade, I think), they use to have us take these tests where we had to distinguish "fact" from "opinion." Factually statements were things like, "My dog barks some," and "opinions" were things like, "Ice cream tastes good," but I think that was the wrong use of the word, opinion. Usually, when people say "opinion," they're talking about what they think is factually true. For example, it might be my opinion that there is life on other planets. I think the dichotomy should have been characterized as "objective statements" and "subjective statements" rather than "fact" and "opinion."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 9:28:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:20:47 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:17:54 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."

Then wouldn't your statement "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream" be an opinion, rather than a 'subjective truth?' To claim that such a statement is a 'truth' would be seen as unreasonable by most people, I think, since taste preferences are widely viewed as subjective, but not, however, 'truth.'

Back in grade school (6th grade, I think), they use to have us take these tests where we had to distinguish "fact" from "opinion." Factually statements were things like, "My dog barks some," and "opinions" were things like, "Ice cream tastes good," but I think that was the wrong use of the word, opinion. Usually, when people say "opinion," they're talking about what they think is factually true. For example, it might be my opinion that there is life on other planets. I think the dichotomy should have been characterized as "objective statements" and "subjective statements" rather than "fact" and "opinion."

Not sure that's meant to be an answer to my question or not :). So are you saying that your statement about ice cream is a 'subjective fact?'
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 9:34:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:28:31 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:20:47 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:17:54 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."

Then wouldn't your statement "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream" be an opinion, rather than a 'subjective truth?' To claim that such a statement is a 'truth' would be seen as unreasonable by most people, I think, since taste preferences are widely viewed as subjective, but not, however, 'truth.'

Back in grade school (6th grade, I think), they use to have us take these tests where we had to distinguish "fact" from "opinion." Factually statements were things like, "My dog barks some," and "opinions" were things like, "Ice cream tastes good," but I think that was the wrong use of the word, opinion. Usually, when people say "opinion," they're talking about what they think is factually true. For example, it might be my opinion that there is life on other planets. I think the dichotomy should have been characterized as "objective statements" and "subjective statements" rather than "fact" and "opinion."

Not sure that's meant to be an answer to my question or not :). So are you saying that your statement about ice cream is a 'subjective fact?'

You asked me if I thought my statement about ice cream is an "opinion" rather than a "subjective truth." My answer is that "opinion" the way some educators have used it in the past, and probably up to the future, means exactly the same thing as "subjective statement," only they are using the wrong word. Given their definition of "opinion," and what they intended to convey by the word, I would say there is no difference between an opinion and a subjective truth. But given the way I think "opinion" is usually used by people, the statement about ice cream is not an opinion, but a subjective truth.

Now, it could be that I'm using "truth" in an unconventional sense because people usually only apply the word "truth" to objective statements.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
delcons
Posts: 6
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12/30/2013 9:43:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 9:34:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:28:31 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:20:47 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 9:17:54 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 8:50:35 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:41:30 PM, delcons wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:00:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think some truths are subjective, and some are objective.

An example of a subjective truth would be, "Mind chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream." That may be true for me while being false for another person since whether it's true or not depends, not on the ice cream, but on the subjective preferences of the person making the claim.

An example of an objective truth would be, "Sam has two cats." He either does or he doesn't. Whether it's true or not has nothing to do with what anybody believes or wishes. It's truth depends solely on whether it corresponds to an actual state of affairs.

I disagree with your example of a 'subjective truth.' Even if mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better TO YOU, it's still objectively true that: it tastes better to you, and it tastes worse to me.

I agree with what you're saying. But keep in mind that my original statement was not, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better butter pecan ice cream to me." Rather, it was simply, "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream."

Then wouldn't your statement "Mint chocolate chip ice cream tastes better than butter pecan ice cream" be an opinion, rather than a 'subjective truth?' To claim that such a statement is a 'truth' would be seen as unreasonable by most people, I think, since taste preferences are widely viewed as subjective, but not, however, 'truth.'

Back in grade school (6th grade, I think), they use to have us take these tests where we had to distinguish "fact" from "opinion." Factually statements were things like, "My dog barks some," and "opinions" were things like, "Ice cream tastes good," but I think that was the wrong use of the word, opinion. Usually, when people say "opinion," they're talking about what they think is factually true. For example, it might be my opinion that there is life on other planets. I think the dichotomy should have been characterized as "objective statements" and "subjective statements" rather than "fact" and "opinion."

Not sure that's meant to be an answer to my question or not :). So are you saying that your statement about ice cream is a 'subjective fact?'

You asked me if I thought my statement about ice cream is an "opinion" rather than a "subjective truth." My answer is that "opinion" the way some educators have used it in the past, and probably up to the future, means exactly the same thing as "subjective statement," only they are using the wrong word. Given their definition of "opinion," and what they intended to convey by the word, I would say there is no difference between an opinion and a subjective truth. But given the way I think "opinion" is usually used by people, the statement about ice cream is not an opinion, but a subjective truth.

Now, it could be that I'm using "truth" in an unconventional sense because people usually only apply the word "truth" to objective statements.

Hehe yeah I'm starting to think our word meanings are just different...good discourse though.