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Investigating TWS

tylergraham95
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2/1/2014 9:51:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Howdy.
I'm tylergraham95.

Recently a show that I very much enjoy watching has come under much flak (TWS). At first all of its critics seemed to me like silly cry babies. To be fair, most of them were.

Recently though I have read a very interesting post by debater numero uno RoyLatham, and also by a very respectably member, ore_ele.
Now these are two members I've looked up to since the day I've joined this site, so I knew that they would have some very interesting takes on TWS.
You can read what I am talking about here:
http://www.debate.org...

Ultimately, what I took away from what roy and ore were saying is that if you're going to call something stupid, then you ought to have good reasoning for it.
I couldn't help but agree.
Therefore, without further adieu, I welcome you to...

Investigating The Weekly Stupid,
with Tyler Graham

Today we will be investigating Season 3, episode 15.

The purpose of this thread will be to give explanation as to why the quotes on the weekly stupid were chosen to be there. Then, the folks who said these quotes will have a chance to defend their positions in a formal, and cordial manner. Furthermore, I will be throwing some of my own commentary about individuals and their quotes, about what they were probably thinking when they said it.

So let's get to the quotes.

10. "The ONLY thing that is, really, in all places at all times, not human, ruthless and kind, and in another dimension is: MATH. So, really the only proof that i see is that "god" is: ghosts or Math" - Dawndawndawndawn

Interesting quote. Getting a bit into the existential here. The reason this quote was selected is because math only exists because humans exist. Math is a system of arbitrary units used to measure the world. It's first and foremost application is physics, which is the science that we humans use to experiment with what is constant in the universe. Math, however, is an invention of man, and therefore is not technically in another dimension. I can see, though, how someone may make the argument that math is a measurement of the natural laws of the universe, and the natural laws are constant and omni-present. Well this may be true for our dimension, however, other dimensions could have entirely different natural laws.

9. "Having been to multiple continents, and originating from Latin America. It isn't bombs, or entire countries. Its Hispanic culture that has the potential to turn cities into replicas of Detroit." - N711

Now here's a quote that might make you more than a little upset. This is because it's racist/stereotyping. Furthermore, it's likely to be BS. I don't know many people, at all, who dog on their own race. Most people are very proud of the area where they're from, in some shape or fashion (this is of course excluding people who come from countries run by cruel governments. I'm sure most Somalians are not proud to live under the Somali government. They might, though, still be proud to be Somalian!). Furthermore, the Latin american culture is a very industrious one. Many stereotypes have arisen from this, stereotypes both negative and positive. The negative being that "those darn Mexicans are taking our jobs!" The positive (but not necessarily right) being the idea that Mexican workers are always the hardest working. Why do people always associate Latin american culture with Mexicans? I don't know but that's the general trend here in Alabama. I have studied Latin american culture, though not in deep extent, and it can be seen that the culture does produce people who are humble and strong, who will work hard to earn their possessions. This, to me, is very admirable. Saying that a culture of diligent workers will destroy a town more effectively than bombs shows that you know nothing of what Latin American culture really is, and that you base your opinion of Latin Americans purely on what you see on either A) TV or B) in the ghetto, where no one of any skin color is raised well.

8. "Fornication should be illegal because:
-STDs
-Unplanned pregnancy
-Contraceptives are artificial and no good for oneself
-People who fornicate are more likely to get divorced
-Teens who have sex are more likely to be depressed"

- Othercheek

This quote was selected mainly because it is riddled with the classic fear tactics that people use in order to spread more christian values (abstinence). Many of these problems are quite easily avoided. STDs are can be avoided in the following ways: only having sex with people you know are STD free, wearing a condom (in most cases, not all), keeping your genitalia clean. STDs may pose a serious health problem, but many are treatable, and avoiding catching an STD is honestly not too difficult. Pregnancy is the easiest of these to avoid. Taking contraceptives, wearing condoms, and using spermicide are all effective methods of avoiding unwanted pregnancy, and there is no scientific evidence (to my knowledge) that shows that these methods pose anyone a significant health risk (unless you are allergic to any of them, of course). As far as fornication and divorce rate goes, that point is only bad for you if you view marriage positively, and divorce as constantly negative. This is the case with the majority of America, though, so I will say this: I personally do not believe that having sex before marriage will make it anymore likely for me to get a divorce, but the truth rests in statistical studies. Whether or not pre-marital sex increases divorce rates is a matter of heated debate, and I don't care to open that can of worms right now. As far as teens having sex, well honestly the most depressed teens are the ones who want sex but don't get it. Finally, it's legal to perform acts that hurt ourselves (smoking tobacco, engaging in dangerous activities like hang-gliding) because we have the freedom to take risks in order to garner happiness.

7. "Archeologists are liars just like Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and all the flesh of man." - bornofgod

This comment doesn't need too much explanation. First and foremost, everyone will say lies in there life, but they usually lie about small, petty, or personal things. What bornofgod is doing here, though, is implying that all Archaeologists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists are chronic liars, and that what they say is always a Lie. You, the reader, likely fall into one of these categories. Ask yourself, "Do I constantly lie?"
What bornofgod was likely doing here is a classic tactic employed by the radical faithful who wish to discredit scientific claims: that is, simply call scientists liars. Really it's just another form of denial.
Note: Notice I said the radical faithful. I do not mean to imply at all that the faithful in general are ignorant and discredit scientific findings.

6. "I dont think Atheist people have the mental capacity to distinguish whet they personally feel is good or bad behavior. Everybody who is an atheist has no morals because they have no self-worth spiritually, and therefore have no reason for morals....." - Pozessed

This quote touches on a very interesting subject: Morality. The existence of morality in human nature is again a subject of lengthy heated debate. Most atheists, though, still hold one objective truth (ironically this truth is a bit of a leap of faith). That truth is the idea that man is good. If you accept the idea that man is good as truth, you can then create an objective moral base. Atheists are more than capable of accepting this truth, and therefore creating their own sense of morality that likely includes an aversion to murder and abusing fellow man without justification. Again, this person was likely posting this as ad hominem towards an atheist, whether the attack is direct or indirect.

Post two coming soon.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
tylergraham95
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2/1/2014 10:18:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
5 "Also with the undoubtable size of the Universe and all the multiples of billions spent by private organizations to suppress information such as the Fibonacci sequence..... (yatta yatta yatta)....... how can you just say there is no God." - Orwell84

To me, this quote says one of two things
A) The universe is amazingly complex, how can you just dismiss the possibility that a god exists? (a fair question)
B) Fat-cat corporations are hiding information about the universe to prevent you from believing in god.

I'm not sure what the author of this quote was meaning to say when he said it, but it does sound like the B scenario from what is in front of me (what with the private organizations suppressing the Fibonacci sequence). The truth is that that type of information isn't being suppressed, it's just that most people aren't looking for it. I've read many interesting articles on the Fibonacci sequence in nature and it is truly fascinating, but I believe that there is likely a secular explanation. Whether or not there's a corporate conspiracy to drive man away from god.... well until I see some evidence to suggest that there is any truth to that claim, I am going to remain highly skeptic of that claim.

4 "It doesn't make any sense, what do you mean by prove Jesus? If you've already found an empty gravesite, you've proved his claim of who he was." -Installgentoo

Okay so let's start by taking this quote literally. Just like imabench said in the episode, and empty grave site does not imply that the person in the grave rose from the dead, or that there was anyone even in there to begin with. The possibilities of what actually happened are countless, and there's no way to know for sure what happened, as none of us were there.
Now let's take a second look at the name of the person who is saying this. Some of you may know this already, but if you don't, here it comes. Install Gentoo is actually a lesser known internet meme. It's origin lies in a forum called 4chan, specifically the board of 4chan where people discuss computers. The phrase then spread to technical boards of reddit. Gentoo is a Linux distro (an operating system) that is incredibly difficult to install. A successful installation of Gentoo lands you among the gods of Linux. Installing gentoo officially means that you are a Linux black-belt two stripes. The meme originally though, was used by trolls who wanted to piss off tech newbies. Here is how it is used.

User 1-"Hey I can't get my disc tray to open on this computer I just built. What do I do?"
User 2-"Delete system32, install gentoo."

As many of you probably know, reddit and 4chan are stuffed with cynical atheists. The usage of such an obscure meme is no coincidence, which means this person is probably an avid visitor to 4chan (or possibly reddit) and is more than likely, an upper level troll. That's my take at least.

3. "The death penalty is not a punishment. It is a reward, because life is cruel and unpleasant." - InVinoVeritas

Well, if you really do think life is cruel and unpleasant, then I suppose this quote is true. Most people don't think that though, and that's why we don't constantly kill ourselves. More than likely, this quote was posted by the user in order to appear dark and brooding, as many people try to do. If this person really meant what they were saying, 100%, then they would have committed suicide already. Many people, though, value their lives because we know life is worth the hardships, and since this user was alive when he posted that, he probably values his life too.
Direct note to InVinoVeritas: DON'T KILL YOURSELF! LIFE IS WORTH LIVING!

2. ""it's unnatural (Gay Marriage). The proof; electromagnetism. Electromagnetism causes most of the phenomena in the universe and likes NEVER attract. In fact the only place where likes attract are in humans; nowhere else in nature do you EVER see likesattract." - Theta_pinch

Remember when we were talking about physics earlier? Well this guy, theta, knows a lot about physics. He is not stupid.
This quote was selected because it is a false comparison. I have actually already contacted theta about this quote in particular. I was just asking him if, when he posted this, he was serious about what he said. I figured that someone with as much scientific knowledge of him, and a secular view of the world like his, would just be trolling when they said something like this. It turns out, though, that he was indeed serious. Now, in electromagnetism, two likes never attract. That statement is true. But humans (and for that matter, animals in general) are not like protons and electrons. Two protons are perfectly identical in their properties. Two humans (any two humans, even twins) are not. Furthermore, emotions are not governed by natural law, rather, somewhat irrational human thinking. Finally, homosexual behavior is exhibited in tons of different animal species.
Here's a list just to show a few of them: http://en.wikipedia.org...

1."I think we should create an atheist registry. Why? Well, because we already have a registry for KKK members and Islamist terrorists. Without an omni-benevolent God, there is no reason for atheists to bother being good." - Installgentoo

You already know my position on Installgentoo; if you don't, refer to #4.

Even if this was true, its a bit contradictory, in that the KKK is actually comprised of Christians. And there isn't really a directory of Islamic terrorists, other than the FBI watch list. Atheists, though, aren't really known for committing acts of violence, especially not in the name of atheism. If you want to read more about the morality of atheists, refer to quote #6.

That's our entire quote list for now! If you have any questions at all, or any disputes with what I have said, feel free to post them right here on this forum, and I will gladly discuss them with you in a cordial manner (really, I promise I won't be mean at all. I'd actually be glad to discuss).

Hopefully this post will show the reasoning as to why these quotes are considered "stupid" rather then just dismissing them as stupid without any reasoning. After all, this is a website where you should back up your claims with reasoning, is it not?

Thank you for reading!
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
imabench
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2/1/2014 12:46:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I actually REALLY enjoyed reading this for some reason
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
OtakuJordan
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2/1/2014 4:09:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is a good thing.
"Most of the coldness in the world is actually just people teaching lessons about the coldness in the world. And it does not remove blame from the people cranking the AC." -Ore_Ele

"You see, Adam never spoke about theology. He just had sex with Eve and died." -1970vu
Ore_Ele
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2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is what the weekly stupid should be. Rather than saying something is stupid because "just trust me" an actual logical reason should be given as to why it is wrong.

For example, the claim of illegalizing unwed sex. Many of the claims are actually true that is used to back up the statement.

It does increase STD rates (though there are method's to minimize those, but they still increase).
It does lead to unplanned pregnancies
It can be an indicator for increased chances of divorce [1].
There is a link between casual sex in teens and depression [2]. Though we should note on that...

"The researchers were clear to make a distinction between casual sex and sex that occurs within the context of a romantic relationship. Even further they also accounted for teens who engaged in sexual relationships with other partners while involved in a romantic relationship. Other variables accounted for were teens who were celibate but in romantic relationships and teens who were celibate and in no relationships. The study also compared results with siblings, to include identical and fraternal twins to account for how environmental factors influence genetics. There are more variables but I do not deem them important to highlight."

So to apply the results to all teen sex would be false.

For the contraceptives, there can be an argument made against those. While few would argue that they are better than being pregnant, they do have harmful effects on the body. Blood clots being one of the more serious (though rare) side effects. Now, people do have to make a choice about what the greater risk is to them and if they wish to risk those consequences, but it is accurate to say that they are harmful. To say they are "no good" would be a debatable stretch, as we can point out to the realistic success/failures of abstinence only programs.

What is debatable in this is not the supporting evidence for the opinion, but the opinion on the ability to legislate morality to such a degree. That is clearly something that is a great debate topic once you find it in there. Granted, DDO always has, and so long as the general members are young, always will have a strong libertarian lean. So such a debate, regardless of evidence will most likely result in a loss.

[1] http://news-releases.uiowa.edu...
[2] http://www.psychologytoday.com...

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
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2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
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2/1/2014 5:35:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy

The WS isn't "more" than a fact check. That would imply that it does fact checking and then does more. It is simply something entirely different. It is entertainment for a few people and does no fact checking at all.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
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2/1/2014 5:41:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:35:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy

The WS isn't "more" than a fact check. That would imply that it does fact checking and then does more. It is simply something entirely different. It is entertainment for a few people and does no fact checking at all.

It does fact check though, just not all of the stuff in the top 10, and not enough to be considered a 'full analysis'.... It still happens though
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
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2/1/2014 5:50:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:41:09 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:35:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy

The WS isn't "more" than a fact check. That would imply that it does fact checking and then does more. It is simply something entirely different. It is entertainment for a few people and does no fact checking at all.

It does fact check though, just not all of the stuff in the top 10, and not enough to be considered a 'full analysis'.... It still happens though

I find it hard to believe that when you say "if anything, lack of sex causes depression, just trust me," that you do any fact checking. Since studies of over 90,000 teenagers has shown the opposite.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
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2/1/2014 5:58:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:50:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:41:09 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:35:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy

The WS isn't "more" than a fact check. That would imply that it does fact checking and then does more. It is simply something entirely different. It is entertainment for a few people and does no fact checking at all.

It does fact check though, just not all of the stuff in the top 10, and not enough to be considered a 'full analysis'.... It still happens though

I find it hard to believe that when you say "if anything, lack of sex causes depression, just trust me," that you do any fact checking. Since studies of over 90,000 teenagers has shown the opposite.

You're only going to use 1 example and apply it over the entire show of every episode?Come on Ore you're smarter then that...
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
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2/1/2014 6:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 5:58:25 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:50:09 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:41:09 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:35:06 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:32:58 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 5:05:45 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

But this is the type of stuff that should be done with these comments. To actually provide evidence into them, to see how "stupid" they may or may not be.

But some people wont find this as entertaining as the WS, since the WS is more then just a fact checking thingy

The WS isn't "more" than a fact check. That would imply that it does fact checking and then does more. It is simply something entirely different. It is entertainment for a few people and does no fact checking at all.

It does fact check though, just not all of the stuff in the top 10, and not enough to be considered a 'full analysis'.... It still happens though

I find it hard to believe that when you say "if anything, lack of sex causes depression, just trust me," that you do any fact checking. Since studies of over 90,000 teenagers has shown the opposite.

You're only going to use 1 example and apply it over the entire show of every episode?Come on Ore you're smarter then that...

I don't watch your show. I watched maybe the first two episodes then stopped because I didn't like. However, I did watch part of the most recent one, just to see if it was still the same and turned it off about half way through.

However, would you be able to provide examples of an in depth explanation of why something is "stupid" from any of the episodes from this most recent season? Just say "episode 7, #4" or something.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
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2/1/2014 6:36:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 6:15:46 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

I don't watch your show. I watched maybe the first two episodes then stopped because I didn't like. However, I did watch part of the most recent one, just to see if it was still the same and turned it off about half way through.

However, would you be able to provide examples of an in depth explanation of why something is "stupid" from any of the episodes from this most recent season? Just say "episode 7, #4" or something.

I dont give in-depth explanations. I give one or two reasons on some of them, and move on. And you dont need to give a full-explanation on something for it to qualify as fact checking.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
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2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 6:36:53 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:15:46 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

I don't watch your show. I watched maybe the first two episodes then stopped because I didn't like. However, I did watch part of the most recent one, just to see if it was still the same and turned it off about half way through.

However, would you be able to provide examples of an in depth explanation of why something is "stupid" from any of the episodes from this most recent season? Just say "episode 7, #4" or something.

I dont give in-depth explanations. I give one or two reasons on some of them, and move on. And you dont need to give a full-explanation on something for it to qualify as fact checking.

But you need to, in order to convince others that you actually did the work. That you actually fact checked them. As I showed with one, your "fact check" on that one was completely off. How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:36:53 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:15:46 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

I don't watch your show. I watched maybe the first two episodes then stopped because I didn't like. However, I did watch part of the most recent one, just to see if it was still the same and turned it off about half way through.

However, would you be able to provide examples of an in depth explanation of why something is "stupid" from any of the episodes from this most recent season? Just say "episode 7, #4" or something.

I dont give in-depth explanations. I give one or two reasons on some of them, and move on. And you dont need to give a full-explanation on something for it to qualify as fact checking.

But you need to, in order to convince others that you actually did the work. That you actually fact checked them. As I showed with one, your "fact check" on that one was completely off.

oooh nooo, someone was wrong on DDO? Someone call the newspapers, people need to know about this!

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/1/2014 8:10:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:36:53 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:15:46 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

I don't watch your show. I watched maybe the first two episodes then stopped because I didn't like. However, I did watch part of the most recent one, just to see if it was still the same and turned it off about half way through.

However, would you be able to provide examples of an in depth explanation of why something is "stupid" from any of the episodes from this most recent season? Just say "episode 7, #4" or something.

I dont give in-depth explanations. I give one or two reasons on some of them, and move on. And you dont need to give a full-explanation on something for it to qualify as fact checking.

But you need to, in order to convince others that you actually did the work. That you actually fact checked them. As I showed with one, your "fact check" on that one was completely off.

oooh nooo, someone was wrong on DDO? Someone call the newspapers, people need to know about this!

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.

This begs the question and fails to address the question of fact checking.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
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2/1/2014 8:27:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 8:10:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.

This begs the question and fails to address the question of fact checking.

For you maybe. For others thats not the case, and they need no further convincing.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/1/2014 8:39:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 8:27:02 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:10:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.

This begs the question and fails to address the question of fact checking.

For you maybe. For others thats not the case, and they need no further convincing.

That would be known as "preaching to the choir."

However, that is still failing to address the question about fact checking. You said you fact check, but have been shown to be occasionally wrong, and have not provided any support what-so-ever that you have ever done a single second of fact checking. Perhaps others don't care, that doesn't really matter much. The truth is that, that until you actually start fact checking, you will be called out of not fact checking.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/1/2014 8:43:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 8:39:37 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:27:02 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:10:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.

This begs the question and fails to address the question of fact checking.

For you maybe. For others thats not the case, and they need no further convincing.

That would be known as "preaching to the choir."

However, that is still failing to address the question about fact checking. You said you fact check, but have been shown to be occasionally wrong, and have not provided any support what-so-ever that you have ever done a single second of fact checking.

there is literally a committee where I and a dozen other people fact check all this stuff, and if you sincerely believe that ive never done a single second of fact checking then youre a lot stupider then I ever could have expected.

Perhaps others don't care, that doesn't really matter much. The truth is that, that until you actually start fact checking, you will be called out of not fact checking.

I do fact check, you just dont care to acknowledge it for some stupid reason.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/1/2014 9:13:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 8:43:40 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:39:37 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:27:02 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:10:23 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 2/1/2014 8:02:54 PM, imabench wrote:
At 2/1/2014 6:44:21 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

How can we trust any of your other "fact checks" if you don't show your work?

If you yourself think the statements in question are indeed stupid, then I dont need to show you anything, cause im hoping youre smart enough to see why something is stupid without having to have someone explain it to you.

This begs the question and fails to address the question of fact checking.

For you maybe. For others thats not the case, and they need no further convincing.

That would be known as "preaching to the choir."

However, that is still failing to address the question about fact checking. You said you fact check, but have been shown to be occasionally wrong, and have not provided any support what-so-ever that you have ever done a single second of fact checking.

there is literally a committee where I and a dozen other people fact check all this stuff, and if you sincerely believe that ive never done a single second of fact checking then youre a lot stupider then I ever could have expected.

Perhaps others don't care, that doesn't really matter much. The truth is that, that until you actually start fact checking, you will be called out of not fact checking.

I do fact check, you just dont care to acknowledge it for some stupid reason.

Why should I acknowledge anything without evidence?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
imabench
Posts: 21,206
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2/1/2014 9:24:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 9:13:49 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:

Why should I acknowledge anything without evidence?

Have faith
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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2/2/2014 2:03:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 9:51:08 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
10. "The ONLY thing that is, really, in all places at all times, not human, ruthless and kind, and in another dimension is: MATH. So, really the only proof that i see is that "god" is: ghosts or Math" - Dawndawndawndawn

Interesting quote. Getting a bit into the existential here. The reason this quote was selected is because math only exists because humans exist. Math is a system of arbitrary units used to measure the world. It's first and foremost application is physics, which is the science that we humans use to experiment with what is constant in the universe. Math, however, is an invention of man, and therefore is not technically in another dimension. I can see, though, how someone may make the argument that math is a measurement of the natural laws of the universe, and the natural laws are constant and omni-present. Well this may be true for our dimension, however, other dimensions could have entirely different natural laws.

So if man did not exist, then 1 + 1 would not equal 2? That's like saying that kangaroos only exist because man has discovered them. Attempts to contact extraterrestrials use a sequence of prime numbers, on the well-founded grounds that anyone advanced enough to receive the signal would recognize the significance of prime numbers. I think that the quote is asserting is that the only certain truth is that which comparable to a mathematical proof. Kant talked about that stuff a whole lot.

The problem with quote is that it's hard to understand what the debater is trying to say, so it's open to various interpretations. Maybe the context would help.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/2/2014 10:43:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/2/2014 2:03:31 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/1/2014 9:51:08 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
10. "The ONLY thing that is, really, in all places at all times, not human, ruthless and kind, and in another dimension is: MATH. So, really the only proof that i see is that "god" is: ghosts or Math" - Dawndawndawndawn

Interesting quote. Getting a bit into the existential here. The reason this quote was selected is because math only exists because humans exist. Math is a system of arbitrary units used to measure the world. It's first and foremost application is physics, which is the science that we humans use to experiment with what is constant in the universe. Math, however, is an invention of man, and therefore is not technically in another dimension. I can see, though, how someone may make the argument that math is a measurement of the natural laws of the universe, and the natural laws are constant and omni-present. Well this may be true for our dimension, however, other dimensions could have entirely different natural laws.

So if man did not exist, then 1 + 1 would not equal 2? That's like saying that kangaroos only exist because man has discovered them. Attempts to contact extraterrestrials use a sequence of prime numbers, on the well-founded grounds that anyone advanced enough to receive the signal would recognize the significance of prime numbers. I think that the quote is asserting is that the only certain truth is that which comparable to a mathematical proof. Kant talked about that stuff a whole lot.

The problem with quote is that it's hard to understand what the debater is trying to say, so it's open to various interpretations. Maybe the context would help.

This is true. Alas, as I do not have the original source, I do not have any context to this quote. What I am trying to say here though is the terminology-such as "1" representing a single unit of something-is a terminology invented by man. It is true though that even if man were not around, in essence 1+1=2.
To be honest, I do see some merit in this quote. There are many quotes along the lines of "Mathematics is the handwriting of god." I'm not particularly versed in the philosophical side of mathematics, but I do see it as the basic building blocks of the universe, the definition of natural law.
Although as far as the "different dimensions" bit, I must disagree. It isn't exactly stupid to say that if there were other universes they would definitely have identical properties, rather, it's just a bit naive- an honest mistake. If there were other universes, they could potentially have totally irrational natural laws where if you had one unit and another unit and you added them together you would have three units.
Again, though, I'm no expert.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/2/2014 10:47:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 12:46:08 PM, imabench wrote:
I actually REALLY enjoyed reading this for some reason

Yay! I'd be happy to do this for each episode.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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2/3/2014 10:31:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/2/2014 10:43:02 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
This is true. Alas, as I do not have the original source, I do not have any context to this quote. What I am trying to say here though is the terminology-such as "1" representing a single unit of something-is a terminology invented by man. It is true though that even if man were not around, in essence 1+1=2.

I'll push on this a bit, because I'm opposed to calling something "stupid" as an alternative to making an argument. Mathematics, logic, and laws of natural exist independent of the symbology used to represent them. Leibnitz discovered calculus independent of Newton and used a different notation. The symbols for the numbers are different in Japanese, etc. If the point of the quote was that if only mathematics provides absolute proof then we can have no absolute proof of God -- well, that's a valid statement.

To be honest, I do see some merit in this quote. ...

Yup.

Although as far as the "different dimensions" bit, I must disagree. It isn't exactly stupid to say that if there were other universes they would definitely have identical properties, rather, it's just a bit naive- an honest mistake. If there were other universes, they could potentially have totally irrational natural laws where if you had one unit and another unit and you added them together you would have three units.
Again, though, I'm no expert.

Modern cosmology includes many theories of multiple universes. These are serious theories proposed by Hawking and others. The most common thread in these theories is that there are eleven dimensions, and that universes exist in parallel simultaneously. Hawking has proposed a twelfth dimension, a second dimension of time. One of the outcomes of a multi-dimensional theory is that it explains why gravity is so weak compared to the other forces (strong, weak, and electromagnetic). There is currently no way to prove a multi-dimensional theory, and there are a few well-qualified scientists who call it "stupid" -- although in polite language and with their argument explained.

But back to the point, everyone expects math to work in all dimensions, because math is necessarily true, like logic, and not a physical property of nature. Kant argued that it was necessarily true by it's nature; Russell and Whitehead argued that it was true by definition. My understanding is that Kant maintains the upper hand in this debate, but I keep watching the evening news for updates.

I watched the latest Weekly Stupid. I t is a mix of valid debate analysis and unjustified pronouncements. A debate site benefits from analyzing debates, so that part ought to be expanded and the regal pronouncements eliminated.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/3/2014 10:45:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/2/2014 2:03:31 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

So if man did not exist, then 1 + 1 would not equal 2? That's like saying that kangaroos only exist because man has discovered them. Attempts to contact extraterrestrials use a sequence of prime numbers, on the well-founded grounds that anyone advanced enough to receive the signal would recognize the significance of prime numbers. I think that the quote is asserting is that the only certain truth is that which comparable to a mathematical proof. Kant talked about that stuff a whole lot.

Why are prime numbers so significant?
My work here is, finally, done.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/3/2014 10:52:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 10:31:54 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/2/2014 10:43:02 PM, tylergraham95 wrote:
This is true. Alas, as I do not have the original source, I do not have any context to this quote. What I am trying to say here though is the terminology-such as "1" representing a single unit of something-is a terminology invented by man. It is true though that even if man were not around, in essence 1+1=2.

I'll push on this a bit, because I'm opposed to calling something "stupid" as an alternative to making an argument. Mathematics, logic, and laws of natural exist independent of the symbology used to represent them. Leibnitz discovered calculus independent of Newton and used a different notation. The symbols for the numbers are different in Japanese, etc. If the point of the quote was that if only mathematics provides absolute proof then we can have no absolute proof of God -- well, that's a valid statement.

Excellent point. It would be very much helpful to have the quote put back into its original context. I think the quote begs a question existential nature, which is a very broad and complex topic. Simply labeling it as stupid is a bit hasty, as fully disproving an argument such as this takes quote a bit of explanation. I believe though that the original quote meant to say that the existence of Math and ghosts prove that there is a god. With better explanation, one could make a tenable argument regarding the math aspect. The quote is lacking in information, which is what gives it comical appeal. It is a vague stab at a very broad concept, which is necessarily stupid, just simply odd and strange, which is what makes it funny to some people. That is my take, at least.

Although as far as the "different dimensions" bit, I must disagree. It isn't exactly stupid to say that if there were other universes they would definitely have identical properties, rather, it's just a bit naive- an honest mistake. If there were other universes, they could potentially have totally irrational natural laws where if you had one unit and another unit and you added them together you would have three units.
Again, though, I'm no expert.

Modern cosmology includes many theories of multiple universes. These are serious theories proposed by Hawking and others. The most common thread in these theories is that there are eleven dimensions, and that universes exist in parallel simultaneously. Hawking has proposed a twelfth dimension, a second dimension of time. One of the outcomes of a multi-dimensional theory is that it explains why gravity is so weak compared to the other forces (strong, weak, and electromagnetic). There is currently no way to prove a multi-dimensional theory, and there are a few well-qualified scientists who call it "stupid" -- although in polite language and with their argument explained.

Indeed. You've obviously done a significant amount of research on this subject. From what I've read, it seems to me that what could exist outside of our universe is purely conjecture, and there is no way to say with any confidence exactly what the properties are of another universe (assuming that there even is one).

But back to the point, everyone expects math to work in all dimensions, because math is necessarily true, like logic, and not a physical property of nature. Kant argued that it was necessarily true by it's nature; Russell and Whitehead argued that it was true by definition. My understanding is that Kant maintains the upper hand in this debate, but I keep watching the evening news for updates.

Yes but math is learned through natural properties. Someone did not simply arbitrarily say 1+1=2. They took one of something, then took another, then labeled what they had "2." Thus, mathematics.

I watched the latest Weekly Stupid. I t is a mix of valid debate analysis and unjustified pronouncements. A debate site benefits from analyzing debates, so that part ought to be expanded and the regal pronouncements eliminated.

I am hoping that this type of thread will help provide the logic behind the Weekly Stupid, as is more fitting of a debate website. The show will give you the quotes at face value for entertainment, and then a thread like this will be made to show why the arguments presented in each quote are regarded as "stupid."
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
RoyLatham
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2/3/2014 10:57:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 10:45:25 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/2/2014 2:03:31 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

So if man did not exist, then 1 + 1 would not equal 2? That's like saying that kangaroos only exist because man has discovered them. Attempts to contact extraterrestrials use a sequence of prime numbers, on the well-founded grounds that anyone advanced enough to receive the signal would recognize the significance of prime numbers. I think that the quote is asserting is that the only certain truth is that which comparable to a mathematical proof. Kant talked about that stuff a whole lot.

Why are prime numbers so significant?

Wikipedia says, "Primes are used in several routines in information technology, such as public-key cryptography, which makes use of properties such as the difficulty of factoring large numbers into their prime factors. Prime numbers give rise to various generalizations in other mathematical domains, mainly algebra, such as prime elements and prime ideals." http://en.wikipedia.org...

Primes are not important to the average person, but are important to mathematicians and have been recognized as such since the times of ancient Greece. Prime numbers rarely have any special significance in nature. A sequence of prime numbers therefore strongly suggests intelligent life in the form of mathematicians rather than natural causes. Non-mathematician life forms are seemingly left in doubt.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/3/2014 11:05:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 10:57:06 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/3/2014 10:45:25 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 2/2/2014 2:03:31 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

So if man did not exist, then 1 + 1 would not equal 2? That's like saying that kangaroos only exist because man has discovered them. Attempts to contact extraterrestrials use a sequence of prime numbers, on the well-founded grounds that anyone advanced enough to receive the signal would recognize the significance of prime numbers. I think that the quote is asserting is that the only certain truth is that which comparable to a mathematical proof. Kant talked about that stuff a whole lot.

Why are prime numbers so significant?

Wikipedia says, "Primes are used in several routines in information technology, such as public-key cryptography, which makes use of properties such as the difficulty of factoring large numbers into their prime factors. Prime numbers give rise to various generalizations in other mathematical domains, mainly algebra, such as prime elements and prime ideals." http://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks for that, but I knew about crytography.
I just don't understand why primes are used, specifically.
I'll just chock it up to magic, since I know next to nothing of technology....someday I'll learn...

Primes are not important to the average person, but are important to mathematicians and have been recognized as such since the times of ancient Greece. Prime numbers rarely have any special significance in nature. A sequence of prime numbers therefore strongly suggests intelligent life in the form of mathematicians rather than natural causes. Non-mathematician life forms are seemingly left in doubt.

I'll admit they are neat, but I never realized the significance of prime factorization in school. I thought I recently understood the importence of it, but have since forgot.
My work here is, finally, done.
Romanii
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2/3/2014 12:51:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/3/2014 10:31:54 AM, RoyLatham wrote:

I watched the latest Weekly Stupid. I t is a mix of valid debate analysis and unjustified pronouncements. A debate site benefits from analyzing debates, so that part ought to be expanded and the regal pronouncements eliminated.

Just out of curiosity, which particular quotes did you think didn't belong on the WS?