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Pickup Artists: Value-Giving or Threatening?

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/12/2014 11:56:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Do you consider pickup artists a threat (some sort of street harassment) or do you consider them an entertaining, interested in mutually-beneficial relationships?
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Andromeda_Z
Posts: 4,151
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4/13/2014 9:23:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Neither, I see it more as mildly annoying than anything else. I'm an introvert, if I'm somewhere where pickup artists can be found doing their thing, it's likely only because someone dragged me there. I'm not really interested in doing anything but blending into the wall lol.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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4/13/2014 2:00:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also neither--the primary objection is that they're being manipulative douches, and that their activities essentially consist in taking advantage of women. I think, on a very deep level of mind, this is probably true, regardless of the claims of "offering value" to people (which, in my head, is only a useful rationalization to disguise the real nature of the gratification of engaging in it); however, since nearly every human being is in possession, among other things, of a perfectly-functioning prefrontal cortex, it is impossible not to be at least somewhat manipulative, even if after a fashion commonly agreed to be innocuous (e.g., lying to protect a child's self-confidence).

To me, then, the whole PUA movement, though based on pretty dubious science, is a group of people who just decide to consciously excel in a very particular kind of manipulation--sexual courting. Depending on the individual persons, there may be more or less deleterious consequences for the person being "picked up", so one cannot really generalize. At the bottom of it, I guess they're less threats and more experts; depending on one's tastes, this could be good or bad (I myself think sexual expression should be far more open, exploratory and common than we permit it to be), but that just means you're forced to play it by ear. If someone is, for instance, a genuinely pleasant person who happens to be good at scoring dates, I think it is a tough question to say whether this person is a "pickup artist" or just attractive and sociable. In fact, I think there's a threshold between the two such that the distinction becomes more or less undecideable.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/13/2014 2:06:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I consider it pure entertaining. One thing YouTube has proved in the last few years is that there is no art, skill, technique, or anything to picking people up, getting phone numbers, etc. All it requires is a pair of testicles.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/16/2014 11:15:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I consider them to be, by and large, creeps. The notion of attempting to have sex with as many different people as possible and then bragging about it is also something I find ridiculous. Also a bunch of them promote pseudoscience.

http://web.archive.org...
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,083
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4/17/2014 5:25:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 2:06:33 PM, philochristos wrote:
I consider it pure entertaining. One thing YouTube has proved in the last few years is that there is no art, skill, technique, or anything to picking people up, getting phone numbers, etc. All it requires is a pair of testicles.

I wouldn't try to pick anyone up with my testicles. That might rip them off depending on how much they weigh...
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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4/17/2014 8:48:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Pickup Artists: The great myth.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/17/2014 9:57:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I think that their literature makes it a lot easier for the average person to learn social dynamics. Some pimply geek that tries these techniques for a few years will gain an understanding of social dynamics that will carry over to other parts of his life. It's either the pick-up artist route or becoming a sales man to learn social dynamics. These things just don't come as naturally to some as they do to others.

When you take into account how much kids are into their electronics these days, that just makes the problem of social dynamics that much harder.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/18/2014 2:26:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 2:00:28 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Also neither--the primary objection is that they're being manipulative douches, and that their activities essentially consist in taking advantage of women. I think, on a very deep level of mind, this is probably true, regardless of the claims of "offering value" to people (which, in my head, is only a useful rationalization to disguise the real nature of the gratification of engaging in it); however, since nearly every human being is in possession, among other things, of a perfectly-functioning prefrontal cortex, it is impossible not to be at least somewhat manipulative, even if after a fashion commonly agreed to be innocuous (e.g., lying to protect a child's self-confidence).

To me, then, the whole PUA movement, though based on pretty dubious science, is a group of people who just decide to consciously excel in a very particular kind of manipulation--sexual courting. Depending on the individual persons, there may be more or less deleterious consequences for the person being "picked up", so one cannot really generalize. At the bottom of it, I guess they're less threats and more experts; depending on one's tastes, this could be good or bad (I myself think sexual expression should be far more open, exploratory and common than we permit it to be), but that just means you're forced to play it by ear. If someone is, for instance, a genuinely pleasant person who happens to be good at scoring dates, I think it is a tough question to say whether this person is a "pickup artist" or just attractive and sociable. In fact, I think there's a threshold between the two such that the distinction becomes more or less undecideable.

Many human relationships are built on manipulation. Job interviewees, for example, are far more manipulative than Owen Cook in my opinion. That's a frequent critique of pickup artists, but ultimately you arrive at a "so what?" moment. They're manipulative! Okay, so are advertisers, salesman, job interviewees, women who wear makeup or learn how to walk sexy from magazines, people who modify their looks with plastic surgery, teenagers lying themselves into bars and nightclubs, parent-child relationships, etc. Manipulation: influencing or attempting to influence the behavior or emotions of others for one"s own purposes. Humans are manipulative, because they naturally seek to fulfill their self-interest (get what they want), and ultimately stimulate their neural reward circuitry. I think that critique fails, but its not like pickup dudes are sitting around wondering what society thinks is morally permissible and sticking to the agreed upon activities. They'll continue to progress their practical social skills regardless.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Wallstreetatheist
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4/18/2014 2:28:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/17/2014 8:48:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Pickup Artists: The great myth.

Explain. Do you think meeting attractive women and sleeping with them on a consistent (once a week) basis is impossible? Because that's what "pickup artists" AKA guys who get a shitload of social reference experiences do.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/18/2014 3:13:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 11:15:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
I consider them to be, by and large, creeps. The notion of attempting to have sex with as many different people as possible and then bragging about it is also something I find ridiculous. Also a bunch of them promote pseudoscience.

http://web.archive.org...

Mystery and Neil Strauss are pretty much jokes in the pickup industry now. Very few people do "routines" anymore; instead, they focus on developing strong core confidence, being purpose, controlled, flowing, self-amused, using strong eye contact, developing a deep and resonant voice, leading the interaction, and closing.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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4/18/2014 8:50:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 2:28:28 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/17/2014 8:48:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Pickup Artists: The great myth.

Explain. Do you think meeting attractive women and sleeping with them on a consistent (once a week) basis is impossible? Because that's what "pickup artists" AKA guys who get a shitload of social reference experiences do.

A girl is either attracted to you or they are not, all the BS in the world wont sway a girl that is not interested. You can how ever be a complete dick and blow the opportunity.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/18/2014 12:00:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 3:13:09 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/16/2014 11:15:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
I consider them to be, by and large, creeps. The notion of attempting to have sex with as many different people as possible and then bragging about it is also something I find ridiculous. Also a bunch of them promote pseudoscience.

http://web.archive.org...

Mystery and Neil Strauss are pretty much jokes in the pickup industry now. Very few people do "routines" anymore; instead, they focus on developing strong core confidence, being purpose, controlled, flowing, self-amused, using strong eye contact, developing a deep and resonant voice, leading the interaction, and closing.

I can't recall where, but I saw some studies that showed that being an alpha male gets you sex with beautiful women more than mimicking one does.

The routines are probably a good crutch until you actually become an alpha.
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/18/2014 1:48:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If they are pickup artists for a date or a girl or whatever then i don't have much of a problem.

I do have a problem with guys manipulating girls into having sex with them, and especially guys that do it with as many different girls as possible.

It turns something that special and intimate as sex into a child's game and undervalues sexual intercourse as a whole.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/19/2014 3:45:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 8:50:36 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:28:28 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/17/2014 8:48:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Pickup Artists: The great myth.

Explain. Do you think meeting attractive women and sleeping with them on a consistent (once a week) basis is impossible? Because that's what "pickup artists" AKA guys who get a shitload of social reference experiences do.

A girl is either attracted to you or they are not, all the BS in the world wont sway a girl that is not interested. You can how ever be a complete dick and blow the opportunity.

Mistake #1492: Assuming women experience attraction like men do. False.

Women experience attraction like a volume knob; men experience attraction like a light switch.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/19/2014 3:49:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 5:44:32 PM, ManofFewWords wrote:
Value-Giving or Threatening?

Both.

Explain.
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
ManofFewWords
Posts: 8
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4/19/2014 3:49:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 3:49:03 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:44:32 PM, ManofFewWords wrote:
Value-Giving or Threatening?

Both.

Explain.

They give valuable advice and are a threat to my sexual prowess.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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4/19/2014 4:17:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 3:49:55 AM, ManofFewWords wrote:
At 4/19/2014 3:49:03 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/18/2014 5:44:32 PM, ManofFewWords wrote:
Value-Giving or Threatening?

Both.

Explain.

They give valuable advice and are a threat to my sexual prowess.

Don't worry, girls come in waves. http://quotespics.com...
DRUG HARM: http://imgur.com...
Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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4/19/2014 8:41:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/19/2014 3:45:48 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/18/2014 8:50:36 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 4/18/2014 2:28:28 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/17/2014 8:48:18 PM, sadolite wrote:
Pickup Artists: The great myth.

Explain. Do you think meeting attractive women and sleeping with them on a consistent (once a week) basis is impossible? Because that's what "pickup artists" AKA guys who get a shitload of social reference experiences do.

A girl is either attracted to you or they are not, all the BS in the world wont sway a girl that is not interested. You can how ever be a complete dick and blow the opportunity.

Mistake #1492: Assuming women experience attraction like men do. False.

Women experience attraction like a volume knob; men experience attraction like a light switch.

Attraction is attraction, it is either there or it isn't. One can use semantics all they want. There will still be no attraction if it isn't there.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/22/2014 7:50:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/18/2014 3:13:09 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 4/16/2014 11:15:20 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
I consider them to be, by and large, creeps. The notion of attempting to have sex with as many different people as possible and then bragging about it is also something I find ridiculous. Also a bunch of them promote pseudoscience.

http://web.archive.org...

Mystery and Neil Strauss are pretty much jokes in the pickup industry now. Very few people do "routines" anymore; instead, they focus on developing strong core confidence, being purpose, controlled, flowing, self-amused, using strong eye contact, developing a deep and resonant voice, leading the interaction, and closing.

In otherwords, according to you pick-up artistry consists of... the basic social skills that people use when flirting.