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Is my reasoning sound?

Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm having a discussion with a Christian about state sponsored prayer in schools. He claims that ever since Engel v. Vitale the public education system has turned bad with all the violence, discipline and respect issues. He also said that if state prayer had been left in schools there wouod be no violence in schools and students would be more respectful because there were no school shootings before this time period.

I countered this with the information that in Canada state sponsored prayer was removed 40 years after their first school shooting and there were numerous ones in between the two events. Therefore his point that there would be no violence in schools is invalid.

He then retorted verbatum with, "THIS IS NOT CANADA!"

I would like to know if anyone finds fault with my reasoning, or agrees with his "this is not Canada" rebuttal.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 11:45:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM, Korashk wrote:
I countered this with the information that in Canada state sponsored prayer was removed 40 years after their first school shooting and there were numerous ones in between the two events. Therefore his point that there would be no violence in schools is invalid.

Did you mistype something? I'm reading that Canada had a shooting, removed state sponsored prayer, and then had more shootings. I don't know what "between the two events" are, though, as you didn't mention this second event (I am assuming the removal of state sponsored prayer is the first).
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/21/2010 11:47:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
er... nothing about praying in schools precludes violence. sounds to me like your friend is slightly deluded about the relationship between religion and violence :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/21/2010 11:51:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM, Korashk wrote:
He claims that ever since Engel v. Vitale the public education system has turned bad with all the violence, discipline and respect issues. He also said that if state prayer had been left in schools there wouod be no violence in schools and students would be more respectful

People have been praying for thousands of years and what did it solve? Nothing. Prayer is something that grew out of a violent institution to begin with.

And what does prayer have to do with students being respectful? Isn't the prayer people who are disrespectful towards non-believers?
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Ragnar_Rahl
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3/22/2010 12:02:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:45:28 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM, Korashk wrote:
I countered this with the information that in Canada state sponsored prayer was removed 40 years after their first school shooting and there were numerous ones in between the two events. Therefore his point that there would be no violence in schools is invalid.

Did you mistype something? I'm reading that Canada had a shooting, removed state sponsored prayer, and then had more shootings. I don't know what "between the two events" are, though, as you didn't mention this second event (I am assuming the removal of state sponsored prayer is the first).

No, that's pretty clearly the second from my reading, the first school shooting being first.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Korashk
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3/22/2010 12:10:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:45:28 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM, Korashk wrote:
I countered this with the information that in Canada state sponsored prayer was removed 40 years after their first school shooting and there were numerous ones in between the two events. Therefore his point that there would be no violence in schools is invalid.

Did you mistype something? I'm reading that Canada had a shooting, removed state sponsored prayer, and then had more shootings. I don't know what "between the two events" are, though, as you didn't mention this second event (I am assuming the removal of state sponsored prayer is the first).

Sorry, the first event would be a school shooting in 1902, followed by numerous more shootings, then the the removal of state sponsored prayer in 1942.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
mistavega
Posts: 30
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3/22/2010 1:36:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Eh, your reasoning seems pretty resonable to me.

I'm religious myself, but I agree with you. Prayer in school will do nothing, if the kids parents aren't teaching them the proper fundamental morals and principles.
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
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3/22/2010 5:18:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:51:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Prayer is something that grew out of a violent institution to begin with.

Yes its clear how violent prayer is. The person closes their eyes then starts chanting soft at first but then it gets louder, until....
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Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/23/2010 10:20:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 11:26:31 PM, Korashk wrote:
I'm having a discussion with a Christian about state sponsored prayer in schools. He claims that ever since Engel v. Vitale the public education system has turned bad with all the violence, discipline and respect issues. He also said that if state prayer had been left in schools there wouod be no violence in schools and students would be more respectful because there were no school shootings before this time period.

I countered this with the information that in Canada state sponsored prayer was removed 40 years after their first school shooting and there were numerous ones in between the two events. Therefore his point that there would be no violence in schools is invalid.

He then retorted verbatum with, "THIS IS NOT CANADA!"

I would like to know if anyone finds fault with my reasoning, or agrees with his "this is not Canada" rebuttal.

You are right, 'this is not canada' is not a suffientient rebuttle. your reasoning is sound.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/23/2010 1:58:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"March 7, 2001: WILLIAMSPORT, Pennsylvania -- An eighth-grade girl has been arrested after a shooting at a Bishop Neumann Junior-Senior High School, a Roman Catholic school in Williamsport, Pennsylvania"

P
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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3/23/2010 4:32:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm quite aware of this, but the guy keeps persisting. Here are some of his other quotes:

"Putting prayer back into our schools is the intelligent choice. "Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein If godless atheists were anywhere near that reasonable and logical, they would convert when they heard the obvious truth."
~

"We need prayer back into our school for the security and safety of our innocent children. Our children are the most vunerable to Atheists, who have no morals or values. And what reason do atheists have to be moral? They don't believe in God!!!! And by their Godless conduct they are corrupting every aspect of American society: our schools, religion, entertainment, government and every other place in our American culture."
~

"Atheists just don't want prayer out of our schools. They want him out of our lives too. They say the only reason God is still on our money & bldgs. is because it would cost too much to remove Him!
I say it is because Christians are still in the majority & God still sits on the Throne!!!!!!!"
~

"We God Fearing Americans are againt godless Atheists who want to corrupt and ruin our children. ANYWAY WHO CARES WHAT SOME GODLESS ATHEIST WANTS."
~

"Why I am for putting prayer back into our schools:

1. I believe that it is a good way to start the school day and that it will create an atmosphere of solemnity and order;
2. I believe we need God to protect our schools, its staff and its students;
3. I believe that it will have a beneficial effect on the problems facing schools: drugs; violence; teeen pregnacy; discipline; etc.
4. I believe that to recite a prayer each day, that it would make our children realize that we are one nation under God;
5. I believe it will make our children realize that our government and it's institutions support and trust in God - "In God We Trust";
6. I believe that it will increase attendance of our children and young people within our houses of worship, which numbers are at a dangerous low;"
~

"The atheists want you to wear religious clothes - that gives them both the right and excuse to wear ungodly clothes with ungodly things on them. There is an internet full of athiest clothing blasphemous to God. You'd be fighting the devil on his own ground."
~

And my personal favorite:
"But, the State does sponsor it's own religion and that is Evolution. Microevolution is a truth and a science. It sets forth a true principle that animals adapt to their climate by means of microevolution. Meaning that a rabbit in Florida will adjust to the heat by means of evolution and like wise a rabbit in Alaska will adjust to the cold by means of evolution. But macroevolution teaches that one species can change into another species.

They even believe that the first life form came from a rock - a mineral. And so on down the line until man evolved. And to support their theory, macroevolutionists point to microrevolution as their proof. There is not example of a cat turning into a dog or a monkey turning into man. What macroevolution is then is a belief and Macroevolutionists would have you take this giant leap of faith to believe that one species changes into another species. Hence macroevolution is a religion because it is a belief and not a science.

And it is a State Religion, paid for the State and Funded by the State. And this false religion of evolutioin is deceiving so many people. My tax money and your tax money is going to pay for a state funded religion, evolution."
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/23/2010 5:21:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This sickens me.

Christian bigot says:
"Putting prayer back into our schools is the intelligent choice. "Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein
Argument from authority
If godless atheists were anywhere near that reasonable and logical, they would convert when they heard the obvious truth."
Ad Hominem
"We need prayer back into our school for the security and safety of our innocent children. Our children are the most vunerable to Atheists
And Christians.
Atheists, who have no morals or values.
Ad Hominem, and false.
And what reason do atheists have to be moral? They don't believe in God!!!!
Assumes there is no reason to be moral without God.
And by their Godless conduct they are corrupting every aspect of American society: our schools, religion, entertainment, government and every other place in our American culture."
One can be moral and irreligious. And it sounds to me like this guy believes he has the authority to decide what behavior is godless.
our American culture
Collectivism ftw.
"Atheists just don't want prayer out of our schools. They want him out of our lives too.
Of course. I'm sure you want Christianity in our lives.
They say the only reason God is still on our money & bldgs. is because it would cost too much to remove Him!
Source? That is the Christian answer to secularism, not the Atheist claim.
I say it is because Christians are still in the majority
Tyranny of the majority. They can't force religion on people.
& God still sits on the Throne!!!!!!!"
God doesn't dictate U.S. policy.
"We God Fearing Americans are againt godless Atheists who want to corrupt and ruin our children.
Ad Hominem, and false.
God Fearing Americans
I thought god was all-loving? Why fear?
ANYWAY WHO CARES WHAT SOME GODLESS ATHEIST WANTS."
Ad Hominem and Ad Populum, and false.

"Why I am for putting prayer back into our schools:

About time.

1. I believe that it is a good way to start the school day and that it will create an atmosphere of solemnity and order;
I believe the Moment of Silence achieves that.
2. I believe we need God to protect our schools, its staff and its students;
I believe that there is nothing that they need to be protected from.
3. I believe that it will have a beneficial effect on the problems facing schools: drugs; violence; teeen pregnacy; discipline; etc.
I believe it will have absolutely no effect.
4. I believe that to recite a prayer each day, that it would make our children realize that we are one nation under God;
I believe that to force children to recite a prayer is the closest thing to imposing religion as it gets.
5. I believe it will make our children realize that our government and it's institutions support and trust in God - "In God We Trust";
I believe that forcing children to pray will force children to realize that our government and its institutions are hypocritical and corrupt.
6. I believe that it will increase attendance of our children and young people within our houses of worship, which numbers are at a dangerous low;"
I believe that the overwhelming majority of children have no authority to decide whether or not they go to church.

"The atheists want you to wear religious clothes - that gives them both the right and excuse to wear ungodly clothes with ungodly things on them.
lolwut? I'm sure if Christians wore more secular clothes, the atheists would still have the right to wear clothes you deam ungodly.
There is an internet full of athiest clothing blasphemous to God.
And you are free to choose which pages you view and which ones you do not.
You'd be fighting the devil on his own ground."
O nose. I thought God was omnipresent.
clothing blasphemous to God
You don't even know what blaspheme is, apparently.

And my personal favorite:
Mine, too.
"But, the State does sponsor it's own religion and that is Evolution. Microevolution is a truth and a science. It sets forth a true principle that animals adapt to their climate by means of microevolution. Meaning that a rabbit in Florida will adjust to the heat by means of evolution and like wise a rabbit in Alaska will adjust to the cold by means of evolution.
Up to here is seems like he knows something.
But macroevolution teaches that one species can change into another species.
...so? There isn't even hardly a solid definition of a species.
They even believe that the first life form came from a rock - a mineral.
Not all believe that, but it's not implausible.
And so on down the line until man evolved. And to support their theory, macroevolutionists point to microrevolution as their proof.
Of course. Macroevolution is large-run micro.
There is not example of a cat turning into a dog
Evolutionists don't claim this happened.
or a monkey turning into man.
Have a look: http://www.google.com...
What macroevolution is then is a belief
It's a theory, like gravity.
and Macroevolutionists would have you take this giant leap of faith to believe that one species changes into another species.
Not a leap because species is undefined.
Hence macroevolution is a religion because it is a belief and not a science.
It is a theory. As is gravity. Is gravity a religion?
And it is a State Religion, paid for the State and Funded by the State.
Lol@hypocrisy. You want to force everyone to pray.
And this false religion of evolutioin is deceiving so many people.
As is the Catholic Church.
My tax money and your tax money is going to pay for a state funded religion, evolution."
Teaching theoretical science is preferable to teaching religion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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3/23/2010 5:44:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I get a lot of enjoyment from tearing his arguments apart. Even though he just dismisses my reasonong and continues his bigotry with the support of the other 80,000 people in the Facebook group.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown