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The Ponichio Paradox

marcusbrutus
Posts: 118
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4/7/2010 2:01:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The problem is the concept of time related to lies.

If I said I killed Joe but I didn't really kill him is it a lie if I kill him 6 years later? No. 2 days later? No. 1 hour later no? 1 second later? No. Thus it does not become truth after the lie has been told and circumstances change. It was a lie at the time and remains a lie.

Paradox broken.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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4/7/2010 2:01:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:01:04 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 1:54:47 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
http://www.neatorama.com...

Discuss.

I brought this up on here before.

Did you? Whoops.... >_>
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 2:04:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:01:58 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:01:04 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 1:54:47 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
http://www.neatorama.com...

Discuss.

I brought this up on here before.

Did you? Whoops.... >_>

It was just something I came out with in some random thread though.
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JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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4/7/2010 2:06:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:01:04 PM, marcusbrutus wrote:
The problem is the concept of time related to lies.

If I said I killed Joe but I didn't really kill him is it a lie if I kill him 6 years later? No. 2 days later? No. 1 hour later no? 1 second later? No. Thus it does not become truth after the lie has been told and circumstances change. It was a lie at the time and remains a lie.

Paradox broken.

Not broken. The analogy does not apply.
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is a lie at the time, then his nose will grow, making the statement the truth. But since he was telling the truth then his nose would not grow.
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is the truth at the time, then his nose will not grow, making the statement a lie.
marcusbrutus
Posts: 118
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4/7/2010 2:12:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:06:54 PM, JBlake wrote:
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is a lie at the time, then his nose will grow

Incorrect. If I say: "I will drink water" ("My nose will grow") and I wait for 10 mins before drinking water, my statement "I will drink water" is not a lie as "will" implies in the future. The only time "I will drink water is a lie" is if I do not intend to ever drink water for the rest of my life nor believe I will break my vow of drinking water.

The statement "my nose will grow" is not a lie, its a statement of belief whereas the entire truth vs lie of the statement is rooted in ones true belief.

Paradox broken
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 2:13:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:12:00 PM, marcusbrutus wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:06:54 PM, JBlake wrote:
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is a lie at the time, then his nose will grow

Incorrect. If I say: "I will drink water" ("My nose will grow") and I wait for 10 mins before drinking water, my statement "I will drink water" is not a lie as "will" implies in the future. The only time "I will drink water is a lie" is if I do not intend to ever drink water for the rest of my life nor believe I will break my vow of drinking water.

The statement "my nose will grow" is not a lie, its a statement of belief whereas the entire truth vs lie of the statement is rooted in ones true belief.

Paradox broken

You're leaving out the now.
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JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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4/7/2010 2:20:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:13:09 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:12:00 PM, marcusbrutus wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:06:54 PM, JBlake wrote:
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is a lie at the time, then his nose will grow

Incorrect. If I say: "I will drink water" ("My nose will grow") and I wait for 10 mins before drinking water, my statement "I will drink water" is not a lie as "will" implies in the future. The only time "I will drink water is a lie" is if I do not intend to ever drink water for the rest of my life nor believe I will break my vow of drinking water.

The statement "my nose will grow" is not a lie, its a statement of belief whereas the entire truth vs lie of the statement is rooted in ones true belief.

Paradox broken

You're leaving out the now.

Exactly. And if you must really be picky, we could add to the statement "My nose will now grow immediately after this sentence," implying that he will not follow the sentence with a lie.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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4/7/2010 2:21:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:19:53 PM, marcusbrutus wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:13:09 PM, badger wrote:
You're leaving out the now.

http://www.neatorama.com...

Now is not included in the paradox.

Read the bubble above his head. :)

"My nose will grow now."
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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4/7/2010 2:25:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:12:00 PM, marcusbrutus wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:06:54 PM, JBlake wrote:
If he is stating that his nose will now grow and it is a lie at the time, then his nose will grow

Incorrect. If I say: "I will drink water" ("My nose will grow") and I wait for 10 mins before drinking water, my statement "I will drink water" is not a lie as "will" implies in the future. The only time "I will drink water is a lie" is if I do not intend to ever drink water for the rest of my life nor believe I will break my vow of drinking water.

The statement "my nose will grow" is not a lie, its a statement of belief whereas the entire truth vs lie of the statement is rooted in ones true belief.

Paradox broken

But he says my nose will grow *now* - not just my nose will grow.

So fail.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/7/2010 2:48:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think it won't grow. Pinocchio can be wrong instead of lying. It's only a paradox if Pinocchio is God.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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4/7/2010 2:49:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'll break this peice by peice.

"If he says it will grow but it doesn't, he's lying.
But it grows when he lies, so he would be telling the truth.
But his nose still grew while he told the truth."

By saying "my nose will grow now" pinnochio is implying that that he has already told a lie, but he hasn't. Which is a lie in itself. He did not tell the truth in this sequence, seeing as prior to the "now" there was not a lie. While he was implying that his nose would grow when telling a lie, in direct response to the situation, it would not apply seeing as he was lying that it would spontaneously grow, without him telling a lie, thus causing his nose to grow.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 2:50:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:48:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I think it won't grow. Pinocchio can be wrong instead of lying. It's only a paradox if Pinocchio is God.

That is a good point.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 2:52:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:50:28 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:48:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I think it won't grow. Pinocchio can be wrong instead of lying. It's only a paradox if Pinocchio is God.

That is a good point.

But he's lying if it doesn't grow.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 2:54:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:49:58 PM, philosphical wrote:
I'll break this peice by peice.

"If he says it will grow but it doesn't, he's lying.
But it grows when he lies, so he would be telling the truth.
But his nose still grew while he told the truth."

By saying "my nose will grow now" pinnochio is implying that that he has already told a lie, but he hasn't. Which is a lie in itself. He did not tell the truth in this sequence, seeing as prior to the "now" there was not a lie. While he was implying that his nose would grow when telling a lie, in direct response to the situation, it would not apply seeing as he was lying that it would spontaneously grow, without him telling a lie, thus causing his nose to grow.

How did you even come up with that?
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philosphical
Posts: 1,643
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4/7/2010 3:01:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 2:54:01 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:49:58 PM, philosphical wrote:
I'll break this peice by peice.

"If he says it will grow but it doesn't, he's lying.
But it grows when he lies, so he would be telling the truth.
But his nose still grew while he told the truth."

By saying "my nose will grow now" pinnochio is implying that that he has already told a lie, but he hasn't. Which is a lie in itself. He did not tell the truth in this sequence, seeing as prior to the "now" there was not a lie. While he was implying that his nose would grow when telling a lie, in direct response to the situation, it would not apply seeing as he was lying that it would spontaneously grow, without him telling a lie, thus causing his nose to grow.

How did you even come up with that?

Well its quite obvious.
Pinnochio was insinuating that his nose would just grow.
His nose however has strict implications to only grow when telling a lie. Pinnochio knows this, and by saying that it will just grow for no reason, is in itself a lie. This is why his nose still grew.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:10:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:01:04 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:54:01 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 2:49:58 PM, philosphical wrote:
I'll break this peice by peice.

"If he says it will grow but it doesn't, he's lying.
But it grows when he lies, so he would be telling the truth.
But his nose still grew while he told the truth."

By saying "my nose will grow now" pinnochio is implying that that he has already told a lie, but he hasn't. Which is a lie in itself. He did not tell the truth in this sequence, seeing as prior to the "now" there was not a lie. While he was implying that his nose would grow when telling a lie, in direct response to the situation, it would not apply seeing as he was lying that it would spontaneously grow, without him telling a lie, thus causing his nose to grow.

How did you even come up with that?

Well its quite obvious.
Pinnochio was insinuating that his nose would just grow.
His nose however has strict implications to only grow when telling a lie. Pinnochio knows this, and by saying that it will just grow for no reason, is in itself a lie. This is why his nose still grew.

Lol, I didn't even read what you wrote. I overestimated you.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/7/2010 3:25:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Pretty easy. His nose grows if he lies, not if he incorrectly predicts the future. Now is always in the future in case y'all were wondering. (Yay! I used y'all. Am I an honorary member of the Texas delegation now?)
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:33:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:25:27 PM, Nags wrote:
Pretty easy. His nose grows if he lies, not if he incorrectly predicts the future. Now is always in the future in case y'all were wondering. (Yay! I used y'all. Am I an honorary member of the Texas delegation now?)

Now isn't in the future, but you're right about the rest I'd say. Freedo got there first though.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/7/2010 3:35:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:33:05 PM, badger wrote:
Now isn't in the future

Yes it is. Can you pause time? I can't.

but you're right about the rest I'd say. Freedo got there first though.

He didn't really give much of an explanation at all, but ok.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:41:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:35:43 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/7/2010 3:33:05 PM, badger wrote:
Now isn't in the future

Yes it is. Can you pause time? I can't.

But now was his cue for his nose to grow so it must be the present.

but you're right about the rest I'd say. Freedo got there first though.

He didn't really give much of an explanation at all, but ok.

Actually, is a lie the opposite of a truth.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/7/2010 3:44:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:41:15 PM, badger wrote:
But now was his cue for his nose to grow so it must be the present.

"Now" [the future] occurred after after he said "now," which would make it the future.

Actually, is a lie the opposite of a truth.

Antonym perhaps, I wouldn't say opposite.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:47:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:44:21 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/7/2010 3:41:15 PM, badger wrote:
But now was his cue for his nose to grow so it must be the present.

"Now" [the future] occurred after after he said "now," which would make it the future.

I'm writing to you now?

Actually, is a lie the opposite of a truth.

Antonym perhaps, I wouldn't say opposite.

Yeah, I didn't think so either. There goes the paradox so.
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Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/7/2010 3:49:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:47:25 PM, badger wrote:
I'm writing to you now?

In the historical present, yes you are writing to me now. However, in the context that Pinocchio is using now, now is not the historical present and should not be defined as so.

Yeah, I didn't think so either. There goes the paradox so.

So you agree that it isn't a paradox?
badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:52:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:49:22 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/7/2010 3:47:25 PM, badger wrote:
I'm writing to you now?

In the historical present, yes you are writing to me now. However, in the context that Pinocchio is using now, now is not the historical present and should not be defined as so.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Yeah, I didn't think so either. There goes the paradox so.

So you agree that it isn't a paradox?

Yeah.
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badger
Posts: 11,793
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4/7/2010 3:53:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/7/2010 3:52:27 PM, badger wrote:
At 4/7/2010 3:49:22 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/7/2010 3:47:25 PM, badger wrote:
I'm writing to you now?

In the historical present, yes you are writing to me now. However, in the context that Pinocchio is using now, now is not the historical present and should not be defined as so.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Yeah, I didn't think so either. There goes the paradox so.

So you agree that it isn't a paradox?

Yeah.

Pity though.
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