Total Posts:44|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What's wrong with the law?

philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:46:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have a friend who is fearful of being raped. She has an uncle that currently lives with her who has sexually harrassed her on multiple occasions. Just yesterday, he asked if he could have her strip entirely naked. He asked asked her to look at pornography on the computer with him, and has asked her to have sex with him. She has refused on all occasions, but now she fears that when he gets home today he is going to forceably sexually assualt her based on something he said. "When I get home we are going to have some fun, whether you like it or not...".

She tried telling her parents about it, and they got angry with her and said she was lying and grounded her. Her uncle has erased all her messages off her phone, therefor giving her absolutely no evidence of anything he said. To get further evidence, she asked a friend to text her uncle saying she was a minor at the age of 17. Naturally her uncle sexually harassed her asking for naked pictures and sex.

My friend has been using these texts as evidence to her uncles behavior, and is still denied by her family, as they say its just "word of mouth/ rumor".

I was angered upon hearing this and decided to take part in her safety. I called our county sheriffs department, and gave them all the information. Their response was that they couldnt openly do anything about it unless he has actually sexually abused her. The officer recommended me to the Utah family and child services program. I called them, and got the same results. They told me that as long as nothing has actually happened yet, there is nothing they could do. So now my friend is in a situation where she is going to be raped today, and the law is basically just allowing it to happen before putting the bastard in jail.

Am I the only person who finds this wrong? Why should we have to wait until after a crime has been committed when we can act upon it? I don't know if this is only where I live, but what are your thoughts and comments on this law?

I am feeling very hopeless right now, and I feel like there is essentially nothing I can do to help her. Any advice?
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:49:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The officers are wrong. If there is reasonable evidence to believe that a crime will happen, the police can surely step in and arrest the uncle. The uncle can be arrested for sexual harassment right now if you have the text messages to show the police. Unless Utah law is barbaric and extremely outdated compared to Massachusetts law, this man can be arrested on numerous different counts.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

inb4 askbob asks why mr.tough can't protect her
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:56:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let her stay with you or go home with her and just talk with them, stay with them for the night, until things cool off.

I hope she hasn't gone home with him there. Don't let her be alone with him.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:58:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid?

These are my thoughts exactly.

Why can't she just go away and live somewhere else temporarily?
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room. I finally got some reluctant cops to go out and check it out, but the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.

It must be the laws in massachutes are different. Either that, or they have a more caring legal system. Either way there is something seriously wrong with the system if people have to wait for a crime to be committed to act upon it.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:00:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room. I finally got some reluctant cops to go out and check it out, but the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.


Any results from the cops? Failing that she should definitely stay with you ro someone else.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:02:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room.

I'm beginning to get a little skeptical of your story.

If she is most certainly going to be raped, why would she even have to contemplate staying with you temporarily?

the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.

This also makes me skeptical.

philisophical, I'm calling you out. I think you're either lying or exaggerating.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:03:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:02:12 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room.

I'm beginning to get a little skeptical of your story.

If she is most certainly going to be raped, why would she even have to contemplate staying with you temporarily?

the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.

This also makes me skeptical.

philisophical, I'm calling you out. I think you're either lying or exaggerating.

Well, he did mention she was grounded, so she could be fearful of her parents.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:03:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:00:19 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room. I finally got some reluctant cops to go out and check it out, but the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.


Any results from the cops? Failing that she should definitely stay with you ro someone else.

Not yet, I just barely got off the phone with them. Basically all they are going to do is check on her. They said they can't really do anything as of right now. I'm just hoping that the uncle seeing the cops there will make him think twice about doing anything. However that also might just the situation worse. But my plan is to convince her to come stay with me until it is safe for her to go home.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:04:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't think anyone can be arrested for sexual harassment. However, pressing these charges on him should be enough to make him back off.

How old is she? 17? If she is 17 then in most areas she can move out on her own. Perhaps she should consider moving out of her parents' house if they are unable to provide her with this basic protection?
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:05:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:02:12 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:58:26 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:52:25 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
This is tragic. Can your friend not hide out at your, or someone else's places, until he does something stupid? Failing that I recommend she be armed with something sharp, or even the presence of someone like you to deter him.

I am actually trying to get her to come stay at my place where I have ane extra room.

I'm beginning to get a little skeptical of your story.

If she is most certainly going to be raped, why would she even have to contemplate staying with you temporarily?

So that the cops can do something about her uncle?

the amount of effort it took me to actaully get anyone to do anything is ludicrous.

This also makes me skeptical.

philisophical, I'm calling you out. I think you're either lying or exaggerating.

Why would I be lying or exaggerating about something like this? I think it is ridiculous that you would even assume such a thing. Please tell me how this makes you skeptical?
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:07:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:04:37 PM, JBlake wrote:
I don't think anyone can be arrested for sexual harassment. However, pressing these charges on him should be enough to make him back off.

How old is she? 17? If she is 17 then in most areas she can move out on her own. Perhaps she should consider moving out of her parents' house if they are unable to provide her with this basic protection?

Yes she is 17 years old. Her mom does provide for her, however I agree that if she wouldnt be able to look at the option of protecting her own daughter, then she should move out or find someplace safe. I am more than willing to open my home to her.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:11:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:09:13 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Out of curiosity is it any of these? http://www.debate.org...

no these are friends from the great life teens organization.

She is a friend from school
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:13:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:49:47 PM, Nags wrote:
"When I get home we are going to have some fun, whether you like it or not...".

Technically, that could refer to things other than sex. Is your friend a minor? If not I'm sure that's a crime on nonsexual counts though: http://chestofbooks.com... (should probably show the police that law). That said, she should move out/kick him out if at all possible.

Regarding the 17 year old friend who is a minor: Asking for sex is only a crime in Utah if he is 27 or older. However, asking for nude pictures is attempt to possess child pornography. I don't know if in Utah the mere attempt is illegal, but I'm fairly sure it is federally (for which you'd probably have to call the FBI).

If he was referring to rape (which we can't determine from the information available, at least for conviction purposes, and trying to get someone arrested without a conviction is generally a bad idea, ESPECIALLY if you are afraid of them), then he is pretty subtle in avoiding the big charges for little ones.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:14:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Didn't read the part where the original party is 17 too.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:17:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:04:37 PM, JBlake wrote:
I don't think anyone can be arrested for sexual harassment. However, pressing these charges on him should be enough to make him back off.

In Massachusetts, you can.
http://www.mass.gov...

Regardless, if there is evidence to believe that she will be raped, then the man can get arrested. Just like if there's evidence to believe a shooting will happen, the possible shooter can get arrested.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:19:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:13:33 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/10/2010 12:49:47 PM, Nags wrote:
"When I get home we are going to have some fun, whether you like it or not...".

Regarding the 17 year old friend who is a minor: Asking for sex is only a crime in Utah if he is 27 or older. However, asking for nude pictures is attempt to possess child pornography. I don't know if in Utah the mere attempt is illegal, but I'm fairly sure it is federally (for which you'd probably have to call the FBI).

yes He is older than 27


If he was referring to rape (which we can't determine from the information available, at least for conviction purposes, and trying to get someone arrested without a conviction is generally a bad idea, ESPECIALLY if you are afraid of them), then he is pretty subtle in avoiding the big charges for little ones.

Either way its quite potent that his intention is to do sexual things with an unwilling minor, which should be classified as rape in this situation. However the law here chooses to find ways around getting them to do actual work, so naturally finding loopholes is going to be there first resort.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:21:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well, if he's over 27 he's ****ed. And the newspapers should be informed to **** the police up if they don't move.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:25:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:21:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Well, if he's over 27 he's ****ed. And the newspapers should be informed to **** the police up if they don't move.

However I dont really understand the difference between age. So the law is saying that if he was 26, then the crime wouldn't be rape? What if he was the same age as her? Nothing would happen? Something seriously needs to change.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:27:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:25:22 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 1:21:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Well, if he's over 27 he's ****ed. And the newspapers should be informed to **** the police up if they don't move.

However I dont really understand the difference between age. So the law is saying that if he was 26, then the crime wouldn't be rape?
He isn't actually demonstrably raping anyone with the evidence you've presented. He's propositioning for sex. And it's not "unlawful sex with a minor" (the "statutory rape law" in Utah) if he's within ten years and she's 16 or 17.

What if he was the same age as her? Nothing would happen?
Not based on the evidence you've presented. Well, other than the child porn bullcrap, and maybe something resembling "criminal threat," which is probably pretty minor.

Something seriously needs to change.
Like the burden of proof?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:29:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Like I said, without the statutory difference and child porn stuff he could still probably be arrested on suspicion of rape given a more sympathetic police force. But it would be a terrible idea to get him arrested, because you wouldn't have enough evidence to convict him, and then you have a guy who spent a few nights in jail and resents you for it-- when you were ALREADY afraid of him.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:45:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:29:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Like I said, without the statutory difference and child porn stuff he could still probably be arrested on suspicion of rape given a more sympathetic police force. But it would be a terrible idea to get him arrested, because you wouldn't have enough evidence to convict him, and then you have a guy who spent a few nights in jail and resents you for it-- when you were ALREADY afraid of him.

Well how likely is it for someone already spending some time in jail to want to go out and physically do anything? You think he would be scared of getting into more trouble, and just leave the situation clean alone.

Law or no law though, I really don't see how any of this is actually legal. Threating someone who obviously doesn't want to do it, that you will have sex with them is very wrong.
Even if they are willing it is wrong, because they can get themselves into situations that they probably no little about.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:58:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."-Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 1:59:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:45:53 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 1:29:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Like I said, without the statutory difference and child porn stuff he could still probably be arrested on suspicion of rape given a more sympathetic police force. But it would be a terrible idea to get him arrested, because you wouldn't have enough evidence to convict him, and then you have a guy who spent a few nights in jail and resents you for it-- when you were ALREADY afraid of him.

Well how likely is it for someone already spending some time in jail to want to go out and physically do anything? You think he would be scared of getting into more trouble, and just leave the situation clean alone.

Lawl. Are you saying he isn't aware he's committing crimes?

Law or no law though, I really don't see how any of this is actually legal. Threating someone who obviously doesn't want to do it, that you will have sex with them is very wrong.
Again, he didn't do that. He propositioned nicely for sex, and threatened something ambigous that may or may not be sex later.

Even if they are willing it is wrong, because they can get themselves into situations that they probably no little about.
Dude, they are 17. I understand this is Utah, but they still probably know what sex is. Lol.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 2:00:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:58:20 PM, Reasoning wrote:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."-Deuteronomy 22:28-29

One great example of how immoral the Bible is.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 2:20:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:46:02 PM, philosphical wrote:
I am feeling very hopeless right now, and I feel like there is essentially nothing I can do to help her. Any advice?

Hide in your friends closet with a baseball bat.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
shaniqualawyers013
Posts: 69
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 2:22:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:46:02 PM, philosphical wrote:
I am feeling very hopeless right now, and I feel like there is essentially nothing I can do to help her. Any advice?
: At 4/11/2010 12:45:37 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
: Banker, stop being a creeper!

: At 4/11/2010 1:09:39 PM, banker wrote:
: Insert I have done that before I left high skool

: At 3/30/2010 6:44:38 AM, belle wrote:
: : At 3/29/2010 7:19:19 PM, wjmelements wrote:
: : I think I have an irregular heartbeat.
:
: you're going to die.
philosphical
Posts: 1,643
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/10/2010 3:29:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 1:59:10 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 4/10/2010 1:45:53 PM, philosphical wrote:
At 4/10/2010 1:29:44 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Like I said, without the statutory difference and child porn stuff he could still probably be arrested on suspicion of rape given a more sympathetic police force. But it would be a terrible idea to get him arrested, because you wouldn't have enough evidence to convict him, and then you have a guy who spent a few nights in jail and resents you for it-- when you were ALREADY afraid of him.

Well how likely is it for someone already spending some time in jail to want to go out and physically do anything? You think he would be scared of getting into more trouble, and just leave the situation clean alone.

Lawl. Are you saying he isn't aware he's committing crimes?

No i'm saying if he gets in trouble once for the threats of sexual acts, then why would be wanting to harm again, or even want to get any where close to her for that matter?

Law or no law though, I really don't see how any of this is actually legal. Threating someone who obviously doesn't want to do it, that you will have sex with them is very wrong.
Again, he didn't do that. He propositioned nicely for sex, and threatened something ambigous that may or may not be sex later.

"propositioned nicely"? He said "whether you like it or not" meaning that he is not nicely asking, but rather saying she does not get a choice in the matter.

Even if they are willing it is wrong, because they can get themselves into situations that they probably no little about.
Dude, they are 17. I understand this is Utah, but they still probably know what sex is. Lol.

That's not what I'm talking about. By having sex with an adult they are putting themselves in situations that can endanger them, which should be illegal. Situations such as, kidnapping, abuse, force behavior, etc. It is generally not safe. Would you say otherwise?
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!