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Columbus Day

Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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10/19/2014 10:04:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My friend is trying to start a petition at our high school to remove the use of the name "Columbus Day" and replace it with "Indigenous Peoples Day". I'm not sure that it will work, but I was wondering what your opinions were.
Subutai
Posts: 3,187
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10/20/2014 9:16:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I like it. One, Columbus didn't really "discover" America, and two, it was his voyages that started the whole western colonization. I don't believe the ends (America) justified the means.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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10/20/2014 1:39:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 9:16:05 AM, Subutai wrote:
I like it. One, Columbus didn't really "discover" America, and two, it was his voyages that started the whole western colonization. I don't believe the ends (America) justified the means.

Agreed. This petition is more about the human rights issues, because Columbus was essentially terrible to his people that he "governed" on Hispaniola.
Subutai
Posts: 3,187
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10/20/2014 2:03:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 1:39:26 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
At 10/20/2014 9:16:05 AM, Subutai wrote:
I like it. One, Columbus didn't really "discover" America, and two, it was his voyages that started the whole western colonization. I don't believe the ends (America) justified the means.

Agreed. This petition is more about the human rights issues, because Columbus was essentially terrible to his people that he "governed" on Hispaniola.

Well, so was everyone else. Regardless, taking everyone's money is no cause to have a special day named after you.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.

If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.
Subutai
Posts: 3,187
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10/20/2014 11:16:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.


I'll give you this, but Columbus is not alone. The vikings ventured into the unknown to found the Greenland and Vinland colonies. The Polynesians went into the unknown searching for other islands to settle. There were numerous other journeys into the unknown. Why should this one be celebrated above all the rest?
If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
inferno
Posts: 10,556
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10/21/2014 10:55:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 10:04:35 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
My friend is trying to start a petition at our high school to remove the use of the name "Columbus Day" and replace it with "Indigenous Peoples Day". I'm not sure that it will work, but I was wondering what your opinions were.

It doesnt mean much where I come from. Its just a day for us to buy stuff on sale at Wal Mart. =)
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/21/2014 12:47:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 11:16:28 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.


I'll give you this, but Columbus is not alone. The vikings ventured into the unknown to found the Greenland and Vinland colonies. The Polynesians went into the unknown searching for other islands to settle. There were numerous other journeys into the unknown. Why should this one be celebrated above all the rest?
If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

Mainly because it's traditional because until recently it was widely believed for centuries that Columbus was the first person here. He was the first person to officially establish a connection with the New World. I'm not saying Columbus is the only person who has struck into the unknown but he is one of the most famous.

Instead of petitioning for "Indigenous Peoples Day" I would accept perhaps changing it to Pioneers Day or Explorers Day to celebrate the pioneering spirit that helped forge the New World.
Atheist-Independent
Posts: 776
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10/21/2014 4:41:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/21/2014 12:47:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/20/2014 11:16:28 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.


I'll give you this, but Columbus is not alone. The vikings ventured into the unknown to found the Greenland and Vinland colonies. The Polynesians went into the unknown searching for other islands to settle. There were numerous other journeys into the unknown. Why should this one be celebrated above all the rest?
If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

Mainly because it's traditional because until recently it was widely believed for centuries that Columbus was the first person here. He was the first person to officially establish a connection with the New World. I'm not saying Columbus is the only person who has struck into the unknown but he is one of the most famous.

Instead of petitioning for "Indigenous Peoples Day" I would accept perhaps changing it to Pioneers Day or Explorers Day to celebrate the pioneering spirit that helped forge the New World.

That's actually not a bad idea. I was not a big fan of the indigenous peoples day proposition either.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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10/21/2014 9:25:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yeah, I agree that if we focused on bad stuff people did, there would never be reason for celebration. Yes, evidence seems to suggest Columbus was brutal, especially during his later voyages, but let's look at some of the natives. Some were cannibals, some oppressed other tribes just as brutally as any conquistador, and some were as peaceful as a doves. Why not start a counter petition against Pndigenous Peoples Day for the human sacrifices of the Aztecs, scalping, etc.?
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/22/2014 4:03:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.

If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

so...

(1) Columbus was a bad guy but he fits well into her fantasy notions of masculinity so it's aight.
(2) Everyone is bad so let's totes ignore the people that Columbus directly had a hand in destroying and celebrate an accomplishment which had literally already been done before him.
(3) *more cynical justifications for glorifying murderers*

Did I miss anything?
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/22/2014 4:04:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/21/2014 12:47:59 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/20/2014 11:16:28 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.


I'll give you this, but Columbus is not alone. The vikings ventured into the unknown to found the Greenland and Vinland colonies. The Polynesians went into the unknown searching for other islands to settle. There were numerous other journeys into the unknown. Why should this one be celebrated above all the rest?
If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

Mainly because it's traditional because until recently it was widely believed for centuries that Columbus was the first person here. He was the first person to officially establish a connection with the New World. I'm not saying Columbus is the only person who has struck into the unknown but he is one of the most famous.

Instead of petitioning for "Indigenous Peoples Day" I would accept perhaps changing it to Pioneers Day or Explorers Day to celebrate the pioneering spirit that helped forge the New World.

Why would we celebrate that? We can't change history but I think respecting all the civilizations that we ignorantly and brutally destroyed in the process of setting up our society is more worthwhile than glorifying the people who did it.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/22/2014 9:17:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 4:03:04 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.

If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

so...

(1) Columbus was a bad guy but he fits well into her fantasy notions of masculinity so it's aight.
(2) Everyone is bad so let's totes ignore the people that Columbus directly had a hand in destroying and celebrate an accomplishment which had literally already been done before him.
(3) *more cynical justifications for glorifying murderers*

Did I miss anything?

If I were gay, I'd totally date you. <3
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jimtimmy4
Posts: 321
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10/22/2014 9:21:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Of course, the natives were far less developed and more savage than the Europeans at this point in history. But, since Columbus was a European man, anything he did is unusually evil.

Funny how cultural relativists only selectively apply their relativism to non European cultures. It's okay to judge Nazis, Columbus, or the Confederacy with modern Western Standards but don't dare judge Muslims or non Whites.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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10/22/2014 10:49:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/22/2014 9:17:09 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/22/2014 4:03:04 PM, socialpinko wrote:
At 10/20/2014 10:16:39 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
No one is celebrating Columbus's mistreatment of native peoples. People celebrated his achievement of being the first person with the eloquence and balls to strike out into the unknown. No matter who you are it takes guts to set sail into the unknown. That's what I celebrate.

If we judged everyone in history by their worst actions then no one would be celebrated at all. No one is blameless. Celebrate what is worth celebrating and acknowledge the bad.

Also, every civilization that stands today was built on the bones of another. I'm sure the person circulating this petition was white, you should tell them to go back to the Caucus Mountains where his people originated from and not come out... ever. Unless invited. Politely.

so...

(1) Columbus was a bad guy but he fits well into her fantasy notions of masculinity so it's aight.
(2) Everyone is bad so let's totes ignore the people that Columbus directly had a hand in destroying and celebrate an accomplishment which had literally already been done before him.
(3) *more cynical justifications for glorifying murderers*

Did I miss anything?

If I were gay, I'd totally date you. <3

I accept this as the highest form of flattery.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
sadolite
Posts: 8,837
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10/23/2014 4:08:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/19/2014 10:04:35 PM, Atheist-Independent wrote:
My friend is trying to start a petition at our high school to remove the use of the name "Columbus Day" and replace it with "Indigenous Peoples Day". I'm not sure that it will work, but I was wondering what your opinions were.

Your friend doesn't even know the relevance of Christopher Columbus in history nor does a single teacher in his school. He and his dimwit teachers probably think it is "he discovered America." The relevance of Christopher Columbus has everything to do with the establishment of trade across the Atlantic ocean and the rise of western civilization that affords all the luxuries in life that your friend and and his dimwit teachers would not be enjoying today had Christopher Columbus not risked everything to do it. Also, progress destroyed the indigenous people. Had it not been the Europeans it would have been someone else. Either way the North American indians refusal to embrace progress was their downfall. They could have embraced it and been rich and powerful beyond their belief as they could have laid claim and charged tariffs on everything, but they didn't, so that was the end of their reign.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%