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Letera
Posts: 35
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4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/22/2010 10:19:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It depends what you mean by Communism or true Communism.

Though the basic concept of communism is sperficially quite attractive the systems it spawns are not.

Communism requires that the resources are placed under central Government control, you need a powerful Government for that to work. However power corrupts. You can't have just Government without some sort of check or balance, and though systems build that into the Government itself, the best systems come from outside the executive. Without that Communism devolves into tyranny.

Communism also goes against human nature. It is not in our nature to amicably divide all resources based on some objective (or attempted objectivity) system of fairness or need, at least not for the long term. Doctors will expect to earn more, and consume more, than the unemployed for instance.

It is also claimed a planned economy, is going to be less efficient than an unplanned one.

In any case is there any country, party or person that best sums up what you personally mean by true Communism?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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4/22/2010 10:20:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:12:37 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Oh god.

My ex-wife's parents a from Slovakia and have lived most of their lives under communism.

Now that it's gone, they miss it.

The thing is, communism isn't perfect but in America communism has always been enemy No. 1 and the the media and the entertainment industry continue to reinforce this perception.

In my opinion communism is not viable in isolation and is prone to corruption but it is better than the feudal systems that it replaced.
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/22/2010 10:27:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
All forms of economic collectivism fail because of the lack of voluntary incentive. It has to be replaced, and history has replaced it with violence and coercion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/22/2010 10:27:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Star Treck communism is good.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/22/2010 10:28:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:20:56 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:12:37 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Oh god.

My ex-wife's parents a from Slovakia and have lived most of their lives under communism.

Now that it's gone, they miss it.

The aftermath of a communist system collapsing is likely to be worst than when it was in existence, I am also not suprised that they dislike having the entire nature of their world altered and a completely different sort of life. Is slovakia overall happier? Probably!


The thing is, communism isn't perfect but in America communism has always been enemy No. 1 and the the media and the entertainment industry continue to reinforce this perception.

It had to be, otherwise the wealthy elite behind such industries would not have remained so.

In my opinion communism is not viable in isolation and is prone to corruption but it is better than the feudal systems that it replaced.

I think that is highly debatable!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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4/22/2010 11:39:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:19:29 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

In any case is there any country, party or person that best sums up what you personally mean by true Communism?

The only case of communism that i know, or pretty close to it, is a Kibbutz, other than that every attempt has been a disaster. In fact every attempt at any sort of eutopia has ended in disaster.
1stLordofTheVenerability
Posts: 53
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4/22/2010 11:43:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:28:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:20:56 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:12:37 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Oh god.

My ex-wife's parents a from Slovakia and have lived most of their lives under communism.

Now that it's gone, they miss it.

The aftermath of a communist system collapsing is likely to be worst than when it was in existence, I am also not suprised that they dislike having the entire nature of their world altered and a completely different sort of life. Is slovakia overall happier? Probably!


The thing is, communism isn't perfect but in America communism has always been enemy No. 1 and the the media and the entertainment industry continue to reinforce this perception.

It had to be, otherwise the wealthy elite behind such industries would not have remained so.

In my opinion communism is not viable in isolation and is prone to corruption but it is better than the feudal systems that it replaced.

I think that is highly debatable!

The USSR is a testimony to the corruption; Cuba is a living testimony. Have you not read up on your history? In Stalin's five year plan, it was quantity that mattered, not quality. Everybody learned how to survive by fictionalizing numbers. The men in the upper ranks adjusted papers and data, making 'paper' quantities that didn't exist - the greatest of these people became forerunners of the Russian Mafia of today. Everybody enjoyed Stalin's rule, for sure. -_- Or even Gorbachev. I think not!

It depends upon the despot that a nation receives. Corruption is evidently rife and individual freedom suppressed. Tell me it works and then explain why there are so few Communist nations left; explain, also, why the USSR collapsed to the delight of hundreds of thousands of oppressed.
cutebunny43
Posts: 296
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4/22/2010 11:46:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:27:31 AM, wjmelements wrote:
All forms of economic collectivism fail because of the lack of voluntary incentive. It has to be replaced, and history has replaced it with violence and coercion.

this
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/22/2010 11:52:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 11:43:19 AM, 1stLordofTheVenerability wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:28:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:20:56 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:12:37 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Oh god.

My ex-wife's parents a from Slovakia and have lived most of their lives under communism.

Now that it's gone, they miss it.

The aftermath of a communist system collapsing is likely to be worst than when it was in existence, I am also not suprised that they dislike having the entire nature of their world altered and a completely different sort of life. Is slovakia overall happier? Probably!


The thing is, communism isn't perfect but in America communism has always been enemy No. 1 and the the media and the entertainment industry continue to reinforce this perception.

It had to be, otherwise the wealthy elite behind such industries would not have remained so.

In my opinion communism is not viable in isolation and is prone to corruption but it is better than the feudal systems that it replaced.

I think that is highly debatable!

The USSR is a testimony to the corruption; Cuba is a living testimony. Have you not read up on your history? In Stalin's five year plan, it was quantity that mattered, not quality. Everybody learned how to survive by fictionalizing numbers. The men in the upper ranks adjusted papers and data, making 'paper' quantities that didn't exist - the greatest of these people became forerunners of the Russian Mafia of today. Everybody enjoyed Stalin's rule, for sure. -_- Or even Gorbachev. I think not!

It depends upon the despot that a nation receives. Corruption is evidently rife and individual freedom suppressed. Tell me it works and then explain why there are so few Communist nations left; explain, also, why the USSR collapsed to the delight of hundreds of thousands of oppressed.

Erm... I think you aimed that to the wrong person!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/23/2010 6:05:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
For future reference this is a Politics section Topic.

-Communism falls to the same ills as all authoritarian systems, corruption and selfish human nature.

There also other lassiez faire Objectivist arguments, arguments that only makes sense to an Objectivist, and that's because an Objectivist is the twisted spawn of selfishness to the highest degree.

If Cody see's this:
Yes Cody, I went there.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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4/23/2010 8:27:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Communism need not be a governmental system. In the U.S. communism exists in the form of communes. Ashrams of various kinds exist around the world, including in the U.S. We also have various types of co-op enterprises in the U.S. and elsewhere, including farming-based and the ever popular grocery store type that you find in some cities. Whether these are deemed successful or not depends on how they define their goals. It appears that many of them achieve substantial success.

I don't think communism on the scale of a national government would be desirable for a wide range of reasons, many of which DDO members are well acquainted with. However, the overall functioning of economic systems could include elements functioning in capitalist, socialist and communist relationships at different levels. I don't see why there should be any inherent conflict between these other than the competition for efficiency within a given level of interaction.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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4/23/2010 8:38:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

It seems like nobody has really addressed the basic elements of Letera's original question in a serious way. Without getting too in depth with an economics lesson, the basic idea, Letera, is that in what we usually think of as a communist system there would be no incentive for anybody to make an ipad in the first place. If somebody did come up with such an idea, they would have no incentive to try to push it through the layers of bureaucratic management to convince anyone to make it. Management wouldn't be interested in making it because there would be no demonstrated need or demand because marketing as we know it would not exist.

This isn't to say that some circumstances might not exist somewhere at some point in time that would allow a fully communist economy to work better than the efforts we've seen thus far, but we sure wouldn't get anything resembling our current society or consumer-friendly culture. While that may not be a bad thing, it would require an entirely different set of societal values from what currently exists.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/23/2010 12:14:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

I literally lol'd at this.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/23/2010 5:24:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As a former communist, I just thought I would add my two cents to this topic. Communism, in theory is good; Collectivisation, everybody working for the greater good, no poverty. Doesn't sound too bad. However, of course it's an impossible utopian society. There's too much potential for greed to kick in. You will get people demanding more and more and of course in a stateless society there's really little way to prevent this. If communism wasn't so easily corruptable I would firmly support it. Instead, a mix of socialism and capitalism seems to be better and cater to everybody's needs.
DontBeRacist
Posts: 584
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4/23/2010 5:25:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 12:14:49 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

I literally lol'd at this.

Tell me why I was about to bold quote it also.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/23/2010 5:26:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:25:44 PM, DontBeRacist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:14:49 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

I literally lol'd at this.

Tell me why I was about to bold quote it also.

iPad sucks.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/23/2010 5:29:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:26:42 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 4/23/2010 5:25:44 PM, DontBeRacist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:14:49 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

I literally lol'd at this.

Tell me why I was about to bold quote it also.

iPad sucks.

Yea. I don't even see the point of iPads. Just another useless product nobody needs. This is what it's good for:
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/23/2010 5:57:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.

lolwut. Don't listen to everything our history teacher says. She says that the Bourgeoisie are the middle class.
China has a mixed economy and a totalitarian government. Communist government is self-contradictory.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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4/23/2010 6:01:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:57:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
She says that the Bourgeoisie are the middle class.

Well, that kinda is one of the definitions.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/23/2010 6:33:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:26:42 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 4/23/2010 5:25:44 PM, DontBeRacist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:14:49 PM, Nags wrote:
At 4/22/2010 9:46:56 AM, Letera wrote:
What is wrong with true communism? it seems like a pretty good idea to me. Spread the wealth and everyone could get an ipad.

I literally lol'd at this.

Tell me why I was about to bold quote it also.

iPad sucks.

That was the correct response.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/23/2010 11:35:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.

Wrong way round.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/23/2010 11:44:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 11:35:00 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.

Wrong way round.

Nay, Internally communist to the citizens, externally Semi-Capitalist/Corporatist.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/24/2010 7:08:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 11:44:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/23/2010 11:35:00 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.

Wrong way round.

Nay, Internally communist to the citizens, externally Semi-Capitalist/Corporatist.

lrn2read.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/24/2010 7:27:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/24/2010 7:08:15 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 11:44:38 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/23/2010 11:35:00 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 5:12:11 PM, mongoose wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:35:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/23/2010 12:09:48 PM, Letera wrote:
so what about a communist economical system but not government?

Communist economics run counter to normal instincts, and also require large scale cooperation/coercion. I dont see how you can have one without the other.

China is communist in government but not in economics.

Wrong way round.

Nay, Internally communist to the citizens, externally Semi-Capitalist/Corporatist.

lrn2read.
Yeah, I noticed I expanded see.
I shouldn't have of added Ney
'sup DDO -- july 2013