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On Veganism.

Yassine
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8/21/2015 1:43:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
- I've been recently reading on Veganism & their so called ethical system, & I must say it looked very inconsistent to me! There are priorities that must be upheld for any society to function, & Veganism seems to be quite confused about these things. Any vegans out there? I hope they would enlighten us on the subject of their philosophy & choices of lifestyle.

- Truth be said, at first I thought vegans are a bunch of delusional naive self-haters unaware of the natural & social realities of Life, regarding some aspects of it at least. The kind of people who basically despise the Human kind. But, upon inspection, & to my surprise, this assumption seems to come true, though fortunately, in a good way. Vegans, at least those moderate amongst them, appear to be some of the most concerned people about the wellbeing of humans overall! Apparently, their discipline & commitment to preserve life influences, by extension, their interest in preserving Peace in a general sense. Some of them, however, are complete nutters & want to dispose of the human race to save the planet! What?!... These kinds are more dangerous than fanatical terrorists, they literally got nothing to lose!

- That been said, I am still convinced Veganism is a ridiculous philosophy, not as a personal disciplinary ethical system, which is seemingly beneficial, but as a collective social system. Any thoughts? Is Veganism justified? Sound? Selfish or selfless? Pro-Man or anti-Man? Is it even possible in practice?...

- Please post arguments for or against Veganism.
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Sarra
Posts: 288
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8/21/2015 1:58:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Do you live in America? If so, do you know any of the extremely long list of poisons that companies are legally allowed to put into our food supply?

If you do not live in America:
this is what companies call chicken:
http://imnewbieschool.com...

this is what companies call beef:
http://www.secretsofthefed.com...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 1:58:56 AM, Sarra wrote:
Do you live in America? If so, do you know any of the extremely long list of poisons that companies are legally allowed to put into our food supply?

- I do not live in America, no.

If you do not live in America:
this is what companies call chicken:
http://imnewbieschool.com...

this is what companies call beef:
http://www.secretsofthefed.com...

- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?
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Sarra
Posts: 288
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8/21/2015 2:47:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?

I believe another vegan or vegetarian may be better at answering your questions. For me, lots and lots of animal - food items tasted absolutely terrible. The texture of some meats and animal products grossed me out.

A lot of issues with American meat and byproducts may not be relevant to you and your community. Genetically modified farm animals:
http://tse3.mm.bing.net...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/21/2015 2:58:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 2:47:09 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?

I believe another vegan or vegetarian may be better at answering your questions. For me, lots and lots of animal - food items tasted absolutely terrible. The texture of some meats and animal products grossed me out.

- So, if you the meat was clean & healthy, would you eat it?

A lot of issues with American meat and byproducts may not be relevant to you and your community. Genetically modified farm animals:
http://tse3.mm.bing.net...

- Haha!
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Sarra
Posts: 288
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8/21/2015 3:18:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 2:58:21 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:47:09 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?

I believe another vegan or vegetarian may be better at answering your questions. For me, lots and lots of animal - food items tasted absolutely terrible. The texture of some meats and animal products grossed me out.

- So, if the meat was clean & healthy, would you eat it?

Meat tastes bad, so I would not eat meat even if it were clean & healthy.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/21/2015 3:20:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 3:18:10 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:58:21 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:47:09 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?

I believe another vegan or vegetarian may be better at answering your questions. For me, lots and lots of animal - food items tasted absolutely terrible. The texture of some meats and animal products grossed me out.

- So, if the meat was clean & healthy, would you eat it?

Meat tastes bad, so I would not eat meat even if it were clean & healthy.

- Ok. :)
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,542
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8/21/2015 1:02:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 1:43:55 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I've been recently reading on Veganism & their so called ethical system, & I must say it looked very inconsistent to me! There are priorities that must be upheld for any society to function, & Veganism seems to be quite confused about these things. Any vegans out there? I hope they would enlighten us on the subject of their philosophy & choices of lifestyle.

- Truth be said, at first I thought vegans are a bunch of delusional naive self-haters unaware of the natural & social realities of Life, regarding some aspects of it at least. The kind of people who basically despise the Human kind. But, upon inspection, & to my surprise, this assumption seems to come true, though fortunately, in a good way. Vegans, at least those moderate amongst them, appear to be some of the most concerned people about the wellbeing of humans overall! Apparently, their discipline & commitment to preserve life influences, by extension, their interest in preserving Peace in a general sense. Some of them, however, are complete nutters & want to dispose of the human race to save the planet! What?!... These kinds are more dangerous than fanatical terrorists, they literally got nothing to lose!

- That been said, I am still convinced Veganism is a ridiculous philosophy, not as a personal disciplinary ethical system, which is seemingly beneficial, but as a collective social system. Any thoughts? Is Veganism justified? Sound? Selfish or selfless? Pro-Man or anti-Man? Is it even possible in practice?...

- Please post arguments for or against Veganism.

Here is and environmentalist argument against Veganism:
"As advocate for the environment, I find it totally detrimental to the welfare of the environment and people as a whole to eat plants.

But why?

Well, plants, via the process of photosynthesis, help regulate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Eating these plants reduces the Earth's natural ability to reduce co2 levels, and thus contributes to increased CO2 concentrations; this leads to global warming.

This is why I eat animals: animals contribute to the production of CO2, and they also eat plants. Not only do animals produce CO2, they also reduce the means of CO2 reduction, which further contributes to global warming."

So, basically: eat animals, fix the Ozone Layer.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 1:02:20 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 8/21/2015 1:43:55 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I've been recently reading on Veganism & their so called ethical system, & I must say it looked very inconsistent to me! There are priorities that must be upheld for any society to function, & Veganism seems to be quite confused about these things. Any vegans out there? I hope they would enlighten us on the subject of their philosophy & choices of lifestyle.

- Truth be said, at first I thought vegans are a bunch of delusional naive self-haters unaware of the natural & social realities of Life, regarding some aspects of it at least. The kind of people who basically despise the Human kind. But, upon inspection, & to my surprise, this assumption seems to come true, though fortunately, in a good way. Vegans, at least those moderate amongst them, appear to be some of the most concerned people about the wellbeing of humans overall! Apparently, their discipline & commitment to preserve life influences, by extension, their interest in preserving Peace in a general sense. Some of them, however, are complete nutters & want to dispose of the human race to save the planet! What?!... These kinds are more dangerous than fanatical terrorists, they literally got nothing to lose!

- That been said, I am still convinced Veganism is a ridiculous philosophy, not as a personal disciplinary ethical system, which is seemingly beneficial, but as a collective social system. Any thoughts? Is Veganism justified? Sound? Selfish or selfless? Pro-Man or anti-Man? Is it even possible in practice?...

- Please post arguments for or against Veganism.

Here is and environmentalist argument against Veganism:
"As advocate for the environment, I find it totally detrimental to the welfare of the environment and people as a whole to eat plants.

But why?

Well, plants, via the process of photosynthesis, help regulate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Eating these plants reduces the Earth's natural ability to reduce co2 levels, and thus contributes to increased CO2 concentrations; this leads to global warming.

This is why I eat animals: animals contribute to the production of CO2, and they also eat plants. Not only do animals produce CO2, they also reduce the means of CO2 reduction, which further contributes to global warming."

So, basically: eat animals, fix the Ozone Layer.

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.
The-Voice-of-Truth
Posts: 6,542
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8/21/2015 4:42:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 8/21/2015 1:02:20 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 8/21/2015 1:43:55 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I've been recently reading on Veganism & their so called ethical system, & I must say it looked very inconsistent to me! There are priorities that must be upheld for any society to function, & Veganism seems to be quite confused about these things. Any vegans out there? I hope they would enlighten us on the subject of their philosophy & choices of lifestyle.

- Truth be said, at first I thought vegans are a bunch of delusional naive self-haters unaware of the natural & social realities of Life, regarding some aspects of it at least. The kind of people who basically despise the Human kind. But, upon inspection, & to my surprise, this assumption seems to come true, though fortunately, in a good way. Vegans, at least those moderate amongst them, appear to be some of the most concerned people about the wellbeing of humans overall! Apparently, their discipline & commitment to preserve life influences, by extension, their interest in preserving Peace in a general sense. Some of them, however, are complete nutters & want to dispose of the human race to save the planet! What?!... These kinds are more dangerous than fanatical terrorists, they literally got nothing to lose!

- That been said, I am still convinced Veganism is a ridiculous philosophy, not as a personal disciplinary ethical system, which is seemingly beneficial, but as a collective social system. Any thoughts? Is Veganism justified? Sound? Selfish or selfless? Pro-Man or anti-Man? Is it even possible in practice?...

- Please post arguments for or against Veganism.

Here is and environmentalist argument against Veganism:
"As advocate for the environment, I find it totally detrimental to the welfare of the environment and people as a whole to eat plants.

But why?

Well, plants, via the process of photosynthesis, help regulate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Eating these plants reduces the Earth's natural ability to reduce co2 levels, and thus contributes to increased CO2 concentrations; this leads to global warming.

This is why I eat animals: animals contribute to the production of CO2, and they also eat plants. Not only do animals produce CO2, they also reduce the means of CO2 reduction, which further contributes to global warming."

So, basically: eat animals, fix the Ozone Layer.

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.

I was being facetious and sarcastic........
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/21/2015 6:20:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 2:47:09 AM, Sarra wrote:
At 8/21/2015 2:33:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Me personally, I very occasionally eat other than clean food. I even get my food shipped from another country just to eat healthy, otherwise I'd get easily sick. But, I am not speaking here about the food industry or meat industry... & their atrocities, or even about the quality of food these industries produce. I am speaking about the philosophy of abstaining from consuming any Animal related product in hope to preserve the environment. What do you think about that? Are you a vegan? A vegetarian?

I believe another vegan or vegetarian may be better at answering your questions. For me, lots and lots of animal - food items tasted absolutely terrible. The texture of some meats and animal products grossed me out.

So, it seems like you are not a vegan/vegetarian due to philosophy, but of choice due to what tastes good. How many vegans/vegetarians do you think are like you, as opposed to those who do this based on values/philosophy?
My work here is, finally, done.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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8/22/2015 1:01:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 4:42:51 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 8/21/2015 1:02:20 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
At 8/21/2015 1:43:55 AM, Yassine wrote:
- I've been recently reading on Veganism & their so called ethical system, & I must say it looked very inconsistent to me! There are priorities that must be upheld for any society to function, & Veganism seems to be quite confused about these things. Any vegans out there? I hope they would enlighten us on the subject of their philosophy & choices of lifestyle.

- Truth be said, at first I thought vegans are a bunch of delusional naive self-haters unaware of the natural & social realities of Life, regarding some aspects of it at least. The kind of people who basically despise the Human kind. But, upon inspection, & to my surprise, this assumption seems to come true, though fortunately, in a good way. Vegans, at least those moderate amongst them, appear to be some of the most concerned people about the wellbeing of humans overall! Apparently, their discipline & commitment to preserve life influences, by extension, their interest in preserving Peace in a general sense. Some of them, however, are complete nutters & want to dispose of the human race to save the planet! What?!... These kinds are more dangerous than fanatical terrorists, they literally got nothing to lose!

- That been said, I am still convinced Veganism is a ridiculous philosophy, not as a personal disciplinary ethical system, which is seemingly beneficial, but as a collective social system. Any thoughts? Is Veganism justified? Sound? Selfish or selfless? Pro-Man or anti-Man? Is it even possible in practice?...

- Please post arguments for or against Veganism.

Here is and environmentalist argument against Veganism:
"As advocate for the environment, I find it totally detrimental to the welfare of the environment and people as a whole to eat plants.

But why?

Well, plants, via the process of photosynthesis, help regulate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Eating these plants reduces the Earth's natural ability to reduce co2 levels, and thus contributes to increased CO2 concentrations; this leads to global warming.

This is why I eat animals: animals contribute to the production of CO2, and they also eat plants. Not only do animals produce CO2, they also reduce the means of CO2 reduction, which further contributes to global warming."

So, basically: eat animals, fix the Ozone Layer.

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.

I was being facetious and sarcastic........

Believe it or not, I've seen people use this argument on multiple occasions, and were serious about it.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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8/22/2015 1:18:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My stance on veganism:

http://www.youtube.com...
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
tejretics
Posts: 6,080
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8/22/2015 11:11:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You're basically mixing up veganism with everything else related to "saving animals," and other such fanatics. Vegan =/= animal militias, lol. Vegans are vegans because (1) for their lifestyle, veganism is healthiest [or, at least, they *think* so], (2) they hate the taste of meat, (3) they empathize with animals and feel application of the Golden Rule is required here. So it's rational. You can't look at veganism from a big picture of "pro-man/anti-man," since veganism is meant to satisfy the *individual,* not the human race itself (unless you're a part of an animal militia). Veganism can also apparently help the environment in the current condition of meat, e.g. factory farms, etc. Slaughterhouses and factory farms today are appalling, and I'm sure you agree.

P.S. People are vegans in France because the vegan food there is absolutely delicious, and they can't miss out on it, but if they eat meat, they will miss out on some of it because overeating is bad :P
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Fkkize
Posts: 2,147
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8/22/2015 12:08:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The argument from marginal cases.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/22/2015 12:32:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 1:02:20 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:

Here is and environmentalist argument against Veganism:
"As advocate for the environment, I find it totally detrimental to the welfare of the environment and people as a whole to eat plants.

But why?

Well, plants, via the process of photosynthesis, help regulate the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Eating these plants reduces the Earth's natural ability to reduce co2 levels, and thus contributes to increased CO2 concentrations; this leads to global warming.

This is why I eat animals: animals contribute to the production of CO2, and they also eat plants. Not only do animals produce CO2, they also reduce the means of CO2 reduction, which further contributes to global warming."

So, basically: eat animals, fix the Ozone Layer.

- I was expecting more of an argument involving Man vs. Environment, but yours looks tasty as well ;) .
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Yassine
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8/22/2015 12:34:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM, Romanii wrote:

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.

- The question remains, would that scenario persist if Veganism was an ethical system on a world wide scale? I very much doubt that!
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Yassine
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8/22/2015 12:36:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 1:18:45 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
My stance on veganism:

http://www.youtube.com...

- LoL! I ended up watching the whole playlist. Damn it Ron, macho funny.
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Yassine
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8/22/2015 12:48:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 11:11:49 AM, tejretics wrote:
You're basically mixing up veganism with everything else related to "saving animals," and other such fanatics. Vegan =/= animal militias, lol. Vegans are vegans because (1) for their lifestyle, veganism is healthiest [or, at least, they *think* so], (2) they hate the taste of meat, (3) they empathize with animals and feel application of the Golden Rule is required here. So it's rational. You can't look at veganism from a big picture of "pro-man/anti-man," since veganism is meant to satisfy the *individual,* not the human race itself (unless you're a part of an animal militia). Veganism can also apparently help the environment in the current condition of meat, e.g. factory farms, etc. Slaughterhouses and factory farms today are appalling, and I'm sure you agree.

- I was speaking of Ethical Veganism, not Dietary Veganism. As I said, I have no problem with *individual* vegan choices, for personal or health reasons. I am more interested in the wide scale application of the philosophy itself, & its ramifications.

P.S. People are vegans in France because the vegan food there is absolutely delicious, and they can't miss out on it, but if they eat meat, they will miss out on some of it because overeating is bad :P

- I agree, vegans in France got nothing to complain about. & because I am a muslim, in order to be safe, I sometimes ask for vegans meal to insure they are pork-free.

- I know some ethical vegans (just one at the moment). They seem very attached to the idea of preserving life, much like some south asian currents in Buddhism & Jainism & Hinduism... it's like they are living in a parallel universe where everything is fine & dandy!
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Yassine
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8/22/2015 12:49:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 12:08:22 PM, Fkkize wrote:
The argument from marginal cases.

- Please, elaborate.
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Fkkize
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8/22/2015 1:00:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 12:49:21 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/22/2015 12:08:22 PM, Fkkize wrote:
The argument from marginal cases.

- Please, elaborate.

1.If we are justified in denying direct moral status to animals then we are justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
2.We are not justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
3.Therefore we are not justified denying direct moral status to animals.

"Marginal cases" should be understood as humans who lack rationality, autonomy, etc.
Premise 1: if we refuse to grant moral status to animals because they lack rationality, autonomy, etc. then we can likewise refuse to grant moral status to humans lacking these traits. Premise 2: should be self-evident.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Fkkize
Posts: 2,147
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8/22/2015 1:03:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 12:34:59 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM, Romanii wrote:

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.

- The question remains, would that scenario persist if Veganism was an ethical system on a world wide scale? I very much doubt that!
But...why?
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Yassine
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8/22/2015 1:08:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 1:00:50 PM, Fkkize wrote:

1.If we are justified in denying direct moral status to animals then we are justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
2.We are not justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
3.Therefore we are not justified denying direct moral status to animals.

"Marginal cases" should be understood as humans who lack rationality, autonomy, etc.
Premise 1: if we refuse to grant moral status to animals because they lack rationality, autonomy, etc. then we can likewise refuse to grant moral status to humans lacking these traits. Premise 2: should be self-evident.

- So, this argument is supposed to support Veganism? How about plants? I am pretty sure this argument could work between a person in a coma & a plant just as well! I mean, sometimes they even call it, vegetable state, literally!
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Yassine
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8/22/2015 1:09:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 1:03:08 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 8/22/2015 12:34:59 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/21/2015 4:32:03 PM, Romanii wrote:

Terrible argument... this actually works against your side. The way our society gets its food, we aren't depleting the natural environment of plants by eating veggies; we are growing a surplus of plants (in farms), allowing them to reach maturity (thereby allowing them plenty of time to help reduce CO2 levels), and then harvesting them. Same thing with meat -- we are raising a surplus of animals, allowing them to reach maturity (i.e. produce lots of CO2) and then slaughtering them. So in reality, it is vegetarianism which aids the cause of environmentalism.

- The question remains, would that scenario persist if Veganism was an ethical system on a world wide scale? I very much doubt that!
But...why?

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Fkkize
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8/22/2015 1:19:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 1:08:31 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/22/2015 1:00:50 PM, Fkkize wrote:

1.If we are justified in denying direct moral status to animals then we are justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
2.We are not justified in denying direct moral status to the marginal cases.
3.Therefore we are not justified denying direct moral status to animals.

"Marginal cases" should be understood as humans who lack rationality, autonomy, etc.
Premise 1: if we refuse to grant moral status to animals because they lack rationality, autonomy, etc. then we can likewise refuse to grant moral status to humans lacking these traits. Premise 2: should be self-evident.

- So, this argument is supposed to support Veganism?
I hope so.

How about plants? I am pretty sure this argument could work between a person in a coma & a plant just as well! I mean, sometimes they even call it, vegetable state, literally!

Frankly a coma patient is a kind marginal case. Let's say plants would have a moral status. Now what? We need to "kill" far more plants to produce meat than we need to directly feed ourselves. So even if we grant a high moral status to plants, it favors a plant based diet over a meat based diet. Quite obviously though, plants are not, and have never been, sentient.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
sadolite
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8/23/2015 1:34:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
my food poops on vegan food
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Yassine
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8/23/2015 3:51:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/22/2015 1:19:34 PM, Fkkize wrote:

I hope so.

- I am not too sure about that. Are you vegan by any chance?

Frankly a coma patient is a kind marginal case. Let's say plants would have a moral status. Now what? We need to "kill" far more plants to produce meat than we need to directly feed ourselves. So even if we grant a high moral status to plants, it favors a plant based diet over a meat based diet.

- That doesn't follow from the argument. If animals & plants both have a moral status, as you postulated, then we would have to kill neither! Which means, we would have to die!

Quite obviously though, plants are not, and have never been, sentient.

- Not what the argument postulates. Obviously, a person in a coma is not sentient, & neither is a plant! Hence the conclusion.
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8/23/2015 7:37:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/23/2015 3:51:13 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/22/2015 1:19:34 PM, Fkkize wrote:

I hope so.

- I am not too sure about that.
Well, what else would it support? It supports at least vegetarianism.

Are you vegan by any chance?
Yup.

Frankly a coma patient is a kind marginal case. Let's say plants would have a moral status. Now what? We need to "kill" far more plants to produce meat than we need to directly feed ourselves. So even if we grant a high moral status to plants, it favors a plant based diet over a meat based diet.

- That doesn't follow from the argument. If animals & plants both have a moral status, as you postulated, then we would have to kill neither! Which means, we would have to die!
I'm a utilitarian. So frankly having everyone die is more detrimental, than eating some plants. I have not postulated that plants have a moral status comparable to that of animals in any way, it was assumed for the sake of argument.

Quite obviously though, plants are not, and have never been, sentient.

- Not what the argument postulates.
I never said it does. Neither does the argument make any claim about plants.

Obviously, a person in a coma is not sentient, & neither is a plant! Hence the conclusion.
The comatose patient is a person the plant is not. The comatose patient can in principle wake up and is the same person as he was before, the plant cannot. There is nothing a plant ever desired or was aware of.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
Emilrose
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8/23/2015 4:38:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Veganism is neither 'wrong' or 'right'--and to inquire whether as to it is 'justified' is simply ridiculous. There aren't really any arguments to be made *for* or *against* other than stating the simple fact that it is attributed to individual taste and preference. For some people it works well, for some people it doesn't. That's absolutely all there is to it.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
Yassine
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8/23/2015 7:30:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/23/2015 7:37:38 AM, Fkkize wrote:

Well, what else would it support? It supports at least vegetarianism.

- I am not convinced!

Yup.

- Alright. Is your case a personal preference or a philosophy & a cause?

I'm a utilitarian. So frankly having everyone die is more detrimental, than eating some plants. I have not postulated that plants have a moral status comparable to that of animals in any way, it was assumed for the sake of argument.

- I am just going with your argument from marginal cases, which necessarily leads to people dying!

I never said it does. Neither does the argument make any claim about plants.

- It makes a claim about marginal cases which apply to plants.

The comatose patient is a person the plant is not. The comatose patient can in principle wake up and is the same person as he was before, the plant cannot. There is nothing a plant ever desired or was aware of.

- The same thing can be said for an animal as well. & I do agree that the argument from marginal cases is a bad one, as I've shown in my previous post (it leads to absurd conclusions).
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