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Should rapists be castrated?

beng100
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10/21/2015 10:34:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Personally I think rape is a hideous crime. The specific sexually motivated nature of the crime makes me wonder if castration would be the most effective deterrant to potential rapists, method of preventing an offender from reoffending and way of giving the victim justice. I'm not saying this is definately the best approach but I think it at least warrants discussion. Thoughts?
Vox_Veritas
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10/23/2015 1:40:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/21/2015 10:34:48 PM, beng100 wrote:
Personally I think rape is a hideous crime. The specific sexually motivated nature of the crime makes me wonder if castration would be the most effective deterrant to potential rapists, method of preventing an offender from reoffending and way of giving the victim justice. I'm not saying this is definately the best approach but I think it at least warrants discussion. Thoughts?

Certainly. Misuse of sexual ability in a way that significantly harms others should result in that ability being removed.
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beng100
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10/23/2015 7:06:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/23/2015 2:37:41 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
Wouldn't that fall under "cruel and unusual punishment?"

It's certainly cruel and is an unusual idea, but I am proposing a operation under anaesthetic so they would not feel any pain. It would be a punishment for the crime and an effective way to prevent them reoffending. I'm fairly confident rape cases would drop significantly if this punishment was in place.
sadolite
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10/24/2015 2:56:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Should rapists be castrated? No, they should be dropped off in the middle of the Florida everglades and told if they can find their way back without dying they are free to go. A better fighting chance than their victims had.
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Sarai.K82
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10/24/2015 5:24:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/21/2015 10:34:48 PM, beng100 wrote:
Personally I think rape is a hideous crime. The specific sexually motivated nature of the crime makes me wonder if castration would be the most effective deterrent to potential rapists, method of preventing an offender from reoffending and way of giving the victim justice. I'm not saying this is definitely the best approach but I think it at least warrants discussion. Thoughts?

Rape is truly hideous. And I appreciate the poetic justice of the act of castration. But from what I've read and it sounds counter-intuitive, castration isn't actually all that effective in preventing recidivism. In short, castrated offenders can and do offend again. [1] And it truly is barbaric, very middle ages. I quite frankly would prefer that a rapist be locked up for life than castrated and released.

[1] Does Castration Stop Rapists? by Russell Goldman, December 12, 2007 -- http://abcnews.go.com...
beng100
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10/24/2015 8:07:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 5:24:02 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
At 10/21/2015 10:34:48 PM, beng100 wrote:
Personally I think rape is a hideous crime. The specific sexually motivated nature of the crime makes me wonder if castration would be the most effective deterrent to potential rapists, method of preventing an offender from reoffending and way of giving the victim justice. I'm not saying this is definitely the best approach but I think it at least warrants discussion. Thoughts?

Rape is truly hideous. And I appreciate the poetic justice of the act of castration. But from what I've read and it sounds counter-intuitive, castration isn't actually all that effective in preventing recidivism. In short, castrated offenders can and do offend again. [1] And it truly is barbaric, very middle ages. I quite frankly would prefer that a rapist be locked up for life than castrated and released.

[1] Does Castration Stop Rapists? by Russell Goldman, December 12, 2007 -- http://abcnews.go.com...

I think in some cases it would help prevent rape happening and reduce the chances of an offender commiting another sexually motivated crime although I acknowledge this is reduce not prevent. I'm not in favour of life time imprisonment. I'm in favour of a justice system where people are detained until they are deemed safe to be released into society after extensive counciling, mentoring and training or if someone continues to offend and deceive authorities the death penalty. I would give offenders a number of penalty points for each criminal offence bases on its severity and impose the death penalty once certain figure is reached. Also the most serious offences such as murder and terrorism would have enough points in one offence and would warrant the death penalty immediately. Probably the idea of castration is too barbaric though to implement but it does have its advantages.
SM2
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10/24/2015 10:37:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Surgical castration is overkill. Chemical castration would achieve the same effect, with fewer risks (including the risk that you've mutilated a wrongfully-convicted person). Genital mutilation is really no better than rape.

I'd prefer to just kill the bastards, but most people laugh in my face when I say that, so I'm assuming it's off the table.
AWSM0055
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10/28/2015 3:44:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 10:37:55 AM, SM2 wrote:
Surgical castration is overkill. Chemical castration would achieve the same effect, with fewer risks (including the risk that you've mutilated a wrongfully-convicted person). Genital mutilation is really no better than rape.

I'd prefer to just kill the bastards, but most people laugh in my face when I say that, so I'm assuming it's off the table.

Nope. I think rapists should be drawn and quartered then killed...

Either that or not wet the sponge on the electrical chair...I'm kidding, but I do agree with you.
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Vox_Veritas
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10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?
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intellectuallyprimitive
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10/28/2015 9:54:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?

I am unfamiliar with the acronym.
intellectuallyprimitive
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10/28/2015 10:06:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:54:51 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?

I am unfamiliar with the acronym.
Female genitalia mutilation I presume.
thett3
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10/28/2015 10:11:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/24/2015 5:24:02 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
At 10/21/2015 10:34:48 PM, beng100 wrote:
Personally I think rape is a hideous crime. The specific sexually motivated nature of the crime makes me wonder if castration would be the most effective deterrent to potential rapists, method of preventing an offender from reoffending and way of giving the victim justice. I'm not saying this is definitely the best approach but I think it at least warrants discussion. Thoughts?

Rape is truly hideous. And I appreciate the poetic justice of the act of castration. But from what I've read and it sounds counter-intuitive, castration isn't actually all that effective in preventing recidivism. In short, castrated offenders can and do offend again. [1] And it truly is barbaric, very middle ages. I quite frankly would prefer that a rapist be locked up for life than castrated and released.

[1] Does Castration Stop Rapists? by Russell Goldman, December 12, 2007 -- http://abcnews.go.com...

I'd be willing to oppose it if it doesn't work, but I cannot fathom how you can say that merely doing to rapists what we do to our dogs is barbaric and medieval while locking them in a cage for decades on end is not.
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1harderthanyouthink
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10/28/2015 10:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No. I doubt that rapists are unable to be rehabilitated, so I see no point to inflict a punishment that last longer than the prison sentences themselves.
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SM2
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10/29/2015 12:34:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?

That's just sick.
Vox_Veritas
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10/29/2015 2:32:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 12:34:02 AM, SM2 wrote:
At 10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?

That's just sick.

Just saying. You can't castrate them though that's what the crime would mandate, so...
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intellectuallyprimitive
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10/29/2015 2:45:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 12:34:02 AM, SM2 wrote:
At 10/28/2015 8:58:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

FGM perhaps?

That's just sick.

Would you expound please, because if castration is applicable to male rapists, what would you propose reasonable the equivalent punishment for female rapists ?
Sarai.K82
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10/29/2015 2:54:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 10:11:58 PM, thett3 wrote:

I'd be willing to oppose it if it doesn't work, but I cannot fathom how you can say that merely doing :to rapists what we do to our dogs is barbaric and medieval while locking them in a cage for decades :on end is not.

If you consider surgically and involuntarily castrating a man as morally equivalent to neutering a dog, then our world views are so divergent, it doesn"t make a lot of sense for us to waste each other's time debating the issue.

Would you consider cutting off a man"s hand for theft as an equivalent "punishment fits the crime" solution? I don"t mean to be rude here. But perhaps it puts it will give you some context to my hesitation to engage in the surgical removal of body parts as a punishment. Amputation of limbs as punishment for specified crimes is still practiced by countries like Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and parts of Nigeria. You also find the Taliban and of course ISIS engaging in the act.

I"m not comfortable with placing the United States in that company. International law generally considers amputation to be cruel, inhuman, and a form of torture. No country including the United States (that I know of) permits surgical castration.

When I think of medieval and/or barbaric punishments, I think of being drawn and quartered and other cruel punishments. I think of Pierre Ab"lard being castrated in the middle ages for his unauthorized affair with H"lo"se.

The fact is castration hasn"t historically been applied to rapists. It has a darker history, being applied under Sharia law for homosexuals or against minorities accused of raping non-minority women. Was I too delicate there?

It's also questionable whether surgical castration (or chemical castration) works to prevent not so much the desire for sex, but the sort of obsessions that cause a small percentage of men to want to molest, rape, and hurt women or children. I see the same percentage figures quoted over and over without pinning them down to exactly what studies were done and how many people were studied. What I have been able to find out about the two seminal studies (one in 1971; the other in the very early 1990s) is that they involved 100 subjects in the first and 48 in the second. For ethical reasons, you couldn't have placebo groups or double blind studies. The one with 48 subjects only had 8 reoffenders. It turns out that different types of sexual offenders have different motivations and for some chemical castration will be more effective and for others less effective maybe? I found one paper that did a review of some of the earlier studies. [1] I couldn't get access to the one I really wanted to read.

Chemical castration also isn't without side effect and even though the libido depressing effects of chemical castration may go away after treatments are stopped, the side effects can last a lifetime (such as osteoporosis, cardiovascular disease, impaired glucose and lipid metabolism, depression, anemia, etc.). [2]

And again, I read again and again that for some people, chemical castration doesn't prevent recidivism, e.g., "... there is also the chance that the chemicals will not have any effect on the sex offender at all, allowing them to perpetrate once again at will under the cover of being chemically castrated."

Now you were apparently offended by my use of the term middle-ages. Would you be more amenable if I said "1950s-style?" After all, the first modern use of chemical castration was in the 1950s when medical professionals developed the treatment to "cure" homosexuals and other "deviant sexual behavior." You might remember that the British mathematician Alan Turing, who cracked the Enigma Code, was one of people who was forcibly chemically castrated (shortly thereafter, he committed suicide).

So pardon me if I question whether I want my country to go down this road. On that basis, I am saying no to surgical castration. As for chemical castration, I am skeptical, but open to being persuaded.

Now you also seem shocked at the idea of locking rapists into "cages" for decades. Look, a man (or woman) does not generally get life in prison for rape. But if this person does it again and again, I"m going to feel safer with him (or her) in prison for the rest of their natural life rather than giving them a chance to reoffend. And frankly, though I suspect you will disagree, modern prisons aren't actually like little tiny dog cages where people crouch and give puppy dog stares at those visiting. Do some research. You may find that life inside for prisoners isn't actually as bad as you think.

[1] https://academiccommons.columbia.edu...

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

P.S. Does anyone else have a problem with their ' (apostrophe) marks being converted to " (quote) marks when they cut and paste?
thett3
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10/29/2015 3:05:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 2:54:08 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
At 10/28/2015 10:11:58 PM, thett3 wrote:

Would you consider cutting off a man"s hand for theft as an equivalent "punishment fits the crime" solution? I don"t mean to be rude here. But perhaps it puts it will give you some context to my hesitation to engage in the surgical removal of body parts as a punishment. Amputation of limbs as punishment for specified crimes is still practiced by countries like Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and parts of Nigeria. You also find the Taliban and of course ISIS engaging in the act.

Yes


It's also questionable whether surgical castration (or chemical castration) works to prevent not so much the desire for sex, but the sort of obsessions that cause a small percentage of men to want to molest, rape, and hurt women or children. I see the same percentage figures quoted over and over without pinning them down to exactly what studies were done and how many people were studied. What I have been able to find out about the two seminal studies (one in 1971; the other in the very early 1990s) is that they involved 100 subjects in the first and 48 in the second. For ethical reasons, you couldn't have placebo groups or double blind studies. The one with 48 subjects only had 8 reoffenders. It turns out that different types of sexual offenders have different motivations and for some chemical castration will be more effective and for others less effective maybe? I found one paper that did a review of some of the earlier studies. [1] I couldn't get access to the one I really wanted to read.

I'm willing to accept evidence that it's ineffective--that was actually what I initially believed, intuitively. I just take issue with the idea that castration is somehow cruel but imprisonment is not. I'm very much against imprisonment as a penalty in general. It seems to me an incredibly expensive, ineffective, and cruel punishment--no matter how nice the prison may be, to me it's completely absurd to say it's more ethical to imprison someone for a few rather than give them a few strokes of the lash.

This blog post really changed my view on the subject:

"Modern countries pride themselves on their humane treatment of prisoners. And by "humane", I mean "lock them up in a horrible and psychologically traumatizing concrete jail for ten years of being beaten and raped and degraded, sometimes barely even seeing the sun or a green plant for that entire time, then put it on their permanent record so they can never get a good job or interact with normal people ever again when they come out."

Compare this to what "inhumane" countries that were still into "cruel and unusual punishment" would do for the same crime. A couple of lashes with the whip, then you"re on your way.

Reader. You have just been convicted of grand theft auto (the crime, not the game). You"re innocent, but the prosecutor was very good at her job and you"ve used up all your appeals and you"re just going to have to accept the punishment. The judge gives you two options:

1) Five years in prison
2) Fifty strokes of the lash

Like everyone else except a few very interesting people who help provide erotic fantasies for the rest of us, I don"t like being whipped. But I would choose (2) in a fraction of a heartbeat.

And aside from being better for me, it would be better for society as well. We know that people who spend time in prison are both more likely to stay criminals in the future and better at being criminals. And each year in jail costs the State $50,000; more than it would cost to give a kid a year"s free tuition at Harvard. Cutting the prison system in half would free up approximately enough money to give free college tuition to all students at the best school they can get into." http://slatestarcodex.com...

I'd be willing to accept imprisonment as the general penalty only if all other avenues have been explored and have failed. Ideally, I see a world where public service and shaming (think temporary tattoos on an individuals forehead detailing their crime) are issued for minor crimes, corporal punishment for mid level crimes, and capital punishment for the most grievous of crimes. Imprisonment should probably be retained for rapists/murderers that we don't want to execute for some reason because corporal punishment would be too easy and a threat to public safety.

I really don't see how exploring these avenues is any more cruel or medieval than imprisonment. We've just internalized the idea of imprisonment to the point that we accept its existence as just a fact of nature. We don't even stop to think about just how destructive to the human spirit it really is.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
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Sarai.K82
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10/29/2015 3:18:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 3:05:52 AM, thett3 wrote:

1) Five years in prison
2) Fifty strokes of the lash

I understand your position now. So that you may gain some insight into my view, let's alter the scenario.

In my hypothetical, the so-called victim of American justice has been convicted of batters his wife and puts her in the hospital. He's given an option,

1) Five years in prison;
2) Fifty strokes of the lash.

He chooses fifty strokes of the lash. I understand why the man prefers option 2. Do you understand why the wife might not be thrilled with that "punishment" when she gets out of the hospital knowing her abuser is walking around outside. Maybe she can take out a restraining order? But no, he's already been "punished" for his crime. Anyway, we know how effective restraining orders are.

Judicial punishment has more than one purpose. Mere eye-for-an-eye punishment is only one basis for punishment. And as for surgical castration and/or amputation of body parts, write your congressman. Maybe you'll get some traction.
thett3
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10/29/2015 3:26:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 3:18:20 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 3:05:52 AM, thett3 wrote:

1) Five years in prison
2) Fifty strokes of the lash

I understand your position now. So that you may gain some insight into my view, let's alter the scenario.

In my hypothetical, the so-called victim of American justice has been convicted of batters his wife and puts her in the hospital. He's given an option,

1) Five years in prison;
2) Fifty strokes of the lash.

He chooses fifty strokes of the lash. I understand why the man prefers option 2. Do you understand why the wife might not be thrilled with that "punishment" when she gets out of the hospital knowing her abuser is walking around outside. Maybe she can take out a restraining order? But no, he's already been "punished" for his crime. Anyway, we know how effective restraining orders are.

That's a totally fair criticism. There are obviously some cases where corporal punishment would be ineffective, and the legal system can easily work within that. Worst case scenario, prosecutors could easily convince a judge that physical punishment would not be ideal in that case. Some kind of physical removal from society has to be retained.

But I'll raise you a case: some young man stupidly and in a fit of anger attacks someone in a bar with a bottle and is convicted of aggravated assault. His victim is okay outside of a few medical bills. What's more humane, a system where we send the young man to Criminal College for a few years, put it on his record, and cost society hundreds of thousands of dollars to imprison him and take care of him after he gets out and can't get a job/commits more crimes or a system where he gets a few strokes of the lash, pays restitution to his victim, and gets to live a productive life with only a few scars to remind him of the price of crime?

Imprisonment is absolutely detrimental to the human spirit. It's one of the worst penalties imaginable and we absolutely should explore other options first. I'm open to being convinced I'm wrong if the evidence against my position mounts, but it's high time we try something else cuz the status quo? That aint working


Judicial punishment has more than one purpose. Mere eye-for-an-eye punishment is only one basis for punishment. And as for surgical castration and/or amputation of body parts, write your congressman. Maybe you'll get some traction.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Sarai.K82
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10/29/2015 3:46:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 3:26:29 AM, thett3 wrote:

But I'll raise you a case: some young man stupidly and in a fit of anger attacks :someone in a bar with a bottle and is convicted of aggravated assault. His victim is :okay outside of a few medical bills. What's more humane, a system where we send :the young man to Criminal College for a few years, put it on his record, and cost :society hundreds of thousands of dollars to imprison him and take care of him after :he gets out and can't get a job/commits more crimes or a system where he gets a few :strokes of the lash, pays restitution to his victim, and gets to live a productive life with :only a few scars to remind him of the price of crime?

Let me ask first, why are we lashing this hypothetical young man? Since this is his first offense, alcohol was likely involved, and there's no strong evidence that he'll re-offend, what about as an alternative to your solution, we do what courts often do. He'll plead guilty to a felony, go into a diversion program where he is on probation for a year or so and has to attend anger-management and alcohol education courses as well as possibly some community service, ideally where he can see the effect that anger and alcohol abuse has on people, and then if he doesn't re-offend in a year or 18 months, his sentence is reduced to a misdemeanor and after a few more years, he can petition the courts to have his conviction expunged and sealed?
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10/29/2015 3:52:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 3:46:19 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 3:26:29 AM, thett3 wrote:

But I'll raise you a case: some young man stupidly and in a fit of anger attacks :someone in a bar with a bottle and is convicted of aggravated assault. His victim is :okay outside of a few medical bills. What's more humane, a system where we send :the young man to Criminal College for a few years, put it on his record, and cost :society hundreds of thousands of dollars to imprison him and take care of him after :he gets out and can't get a job/commits more crimes or a system where he gets a few :strokes of the lash, pays restitution to his victim, and gets to live a productive life with :only a few scars to remind him of the price of crime?

Let me ask first, why are we lashing this hypothetical young man? Since this is his first offense, alcohol was likely involved, and there's no strong evidence that he'll re-offend, what about as an alternative to your solution, we do what courts often do. He'll plead guilty to a felony, go into a diversion program where he is on probation for a year or so and has to attend anger-management and alcohol education courses as well as possibly some community service, ideally where he can see the effect that anger and alcohol abuse has on people, and then if he doesn't re-offend in a year or 18 months, his sentence is reduced to a misdemeanor and after a few more years, he can petition the courts to have his conviction expunged and sealed?

I would be fine with that in certain cases, too. There are scenarios where a person just made a mistake, and other scenarios where someone needs some sense knocked into them--think somebody who has stolen a few cars. He deserves punishment for its own sake and to pay restitution to his victims, but neither he nor our society deserves the costs associated with ruining his life with prison. There are even scenarios like the one you listed where imprisonment should be retained. I just don't see why we shouldn't have as many potential penalties as possible so that we can better tailor the maximally just outcome
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
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10/29/2015 10:18:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 2:45:27 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:

Would you expound please, because if castration is applicable to male rapists, what would you propose reasonable the equivalent punishment for female rapists ?

I don't think it should be done to either. Cutting off genitals is just nasty.
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10/29/2015 11:00:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 10:18:37 PM, SM2 wrote:
At 10/29/2015 2:45:27 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:

Would you expound please, because if castration is applicable to male rapists, what would you propose reasonable the equivalent punishment for female rapists ?

I don't think it should be done to either. Cutting off genitals is just nasty.

I tend to agree.
fromantle
Posts: 274
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10/31/2015 7:44:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
About five hundred boys a year were castrated to retain their high- pitched voices.
Some became famous singers and some males later in history with high voices were suspected of undergoing castration.
Some of these men were adored by women and men for their grace and beauty they were not sexually inactive.
My answer to your question is a definite yes. It is the job of society to protecr its law abiding members. The problem today is the influence of those who believe in rehabilitatation for all wrongdoing.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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10/31/2015 6:35:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

You can't rape the willing
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/31/2015 9:58:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 6:35:44 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

You can't rape the willing

If consent is reciprocated then the concept of rape is inapplicable. Not all males would derive enjoyment devoid of consent relating sexual activities with every female.
sadolite
Posts: 8,834
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11/1/2015 1:07:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/31/2015 9:58:56 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/31/2015 6:35:44 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 10/28/2015 7:53:42 PM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
How about female rapists? What shall their potential form of punishment include?

You can't rape the willing

If consent is reciprocated then the concept of rape is inapplicable. Not all males would derive enjoyment devoid of consent relating sexual activities with every female.

Never met one of those , must be ultra ultra ultra gay or something.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%