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RFD: Whiteflame vs Rasior

Seagull
Posts: 88
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4/20/2016 7:09:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
This is my first time voting ever, so please contact me if you have concerns with my vote.

It is for this debate: http://www.debate.org...

Facts presented

1) Abandoned his post- no notification, endangered others" lives and shirked duty.
2) Intended to incur a court-marshal
3) Bowe was captured and tortured for 5 years

Pros Case

Bowe ought to be convicted and punished for desertion or misbehavior before the enemy.

Rasior argued that Bowe did not plan to come back and clearly deserted the military. To support this a letter Bowe sent to his parents indicating he was ashamed to be American and life is too good to participate, he also sent his laptop. Despite Whiteflame"s responds that he thinks it is not so clear if Bowe really was deserting, I buy based on these examples that it is reasonable to assume Bowe did not plan on coming back and can be convicted of desertion.

Rasior continues to argue that because of this desertion, Bowe placed others in danger. Examples given include a red alert for a full month and extra patrols that likely resulting in deaths. Whiteflame does contend that the army was responsible for this extra harm as the army rushed to find him. Rasior"s responses here are solid. He asks, should we not look for missing soldiers, Bowe didn"t leave a note, etc. I am inclined to accept Rasior"s arguments.

I am convinced that Bowe deserted and caused harm to others.

Cons case

Whiteflame argues that Bowe was bullied. He provides sufficient warrant for this claim that is corroborated by others in Bowes group. Whiteflame argues this is Bowe"s motive and asks if can he be punished for that? Especially as it seems clear that Bowe made clear attempts before leaving that he was concerned with his unit. He tried to make changes, it did not work. His actions were to get the attention necessary to address real concern. There was no opportunity to fix problem otherwise. Communication was unsuccessful. As a result Bowe fled was imprisoned, beaten, and threatened with death.

What I feel this gets for con is an appeal to Bowe having acted in the only way he thought he could. I confess I do feel a certain amount of sympathy for Bowe after considering Whiteflames case. Despite this, Rasior"s response that There were other ways to open communication. I.E. he had access to computer, family, military leadership etc.

Justice- Both sides touch a bit on justice.

Rasior argued that Justice requires giving what they are owed. Bowe harmed troops, those troops are owed something, his conviction. If you desert you will face the consequences. Whiteflame responded with arguing most deserters are not tried, only one case in recent memory. Why convicted Bowe when in most cases no one else is? It would be the exception, not the rule to convict Bowe.

Results- Whiteflame makes a solid case that the impacts of trying Bowe don"t produce any desired results, whereas trying him could cause harm to Bowe.

Conclusion

This was an amazing debate, especially as you were assigned sides randomly. I am very impressed. I thought both sides did amazing. I am convinced at the end of the debate that Bowe is guilty of deserting, but I am not convinced he should be punished. I do not see how convicting Bowe does any good. I am also convinced that because we do not typically convict people for this that Bowe should not be the exception. In addition I found Whiteflames argument that The U.S. should not continue the torture of Bowe convincing to not convict him. I vote for Whiteflame.

tldr; By the end of the debate I am convinced Bowe is guilty, though not convinced he should be punished. As the resolution says "and" I vote for con.
Hayd
Posts: 4,022
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4/21/2016 4:36:07 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/20/2016 7:09:20 PM, Seagull wrote:
This is my first time voting ever, so please contact me if you have concerns with my vote.

It is for this debate: http://www.debate.org...

Facts presented

1) Abandoned his post- no notification, endangered others" lives and shirked duty.
2) Intended to incur a court-marshal
3) Bowe was captured and tortured for 5 years

Pros Case

Bowe ought to be convicted and punished for desertion or misbehavior before the enemy.

Rasior argued that Bowe did not plan to come back and clearly deserted the military. To support this a letter Bowe sent to his parents indicating he was ashamed to be American and life is too good to participate, he also sent his laptop. Despite Whiteflame"s responds that he thinks it is not so clear if Bowe really was deserting, I buy based on these examples that it is reasonable to assume Bowe did not plan on coming back and can be convicted of desertion.

Rasior continues to argue that because of this desertion, Bowe placed others in danger. Examples given include a red alert for a full month and extra patrols that likely resulting in deaths. Whiteflame does contend that the army was responsible for this extra harm as the army rushed to find him. Rasior"s responses here are solid. He asks, should we not look for missing soldiers, Bowe didn"t leave a note, etc. I am inclined to accept Rasior"s arguments.

I am convinced that Bowe deserted and caused harm to others.

Cons case

Whiteflame argues that Bowe was bullied. He provides sufficient warrant for this claim that is corroborated by others in Bowes group. Whiteflame argues this is Bowe"s motive and asks if can he be punished for that? Especially as it seems clear that Bowe made clear attempts before leaving that he was concerned with his unit. He tried to make changes, it did not work. His actions were to get the attention necessary to address real concern. There was no opportunity to fix problem otherwise. Communication was unsuccessful. As a result Bowe fled was imprisoned, beaten, and threatened with death.

What I feel this gets for con is an appeal to Bowe having acted in the only way he thought he could. I confess I do feel a certain amount of sympathy for Bowe after considering Whiteflames case. Despite this, Rasior"s response that There were other ways to open communication. I.E. he had access to computer, family, military leadership etc.

Justice- Both sides touch a bit on justice.

Rasior argued that Justice requires giving what they are owed. Bowe harmed troops, those troops are owed something, his conviction. If you desert you will face the consequences. Whiteflame responded with arguing most deserters are not tried, only one case in recent memory. Why convicted Bowe when in most cases no one else is? It would be the exception, not the rule to convict Bowe.

Results- Whiteflame makes a solid case that the impacts of trying Bowe don"t produce any desired results, whereas trying him could cause harm to Bowe.

Conclusion

This was an amazing debate, especially as you were assigned sides randomly. I am very impressed. I thought both sides did amazing. I am convinced at the end of the debate that Bowe is guilty of deserting, but I am not convinced he should be punished. I do not see how convicting Bowe does any good. I am also convinced that because we do not typically convict people for this that Bowe should not be the exception. In addition I found Whiteflames argument that The U.S. should not continue the torture of Bowe convincing to not convict him. I vote for Whiteflame.

tldr; By the end of the debate I am convinced Bowe is guilty, though not convinced he should be punished. As the resolution says "and" I vote for con.

You know what, I'm gonna listen to the debate and then properly evaluate your vote since you're such a cool guy.