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Debate Tournament III: Discussion

Johnicle
Posts: 888
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11/30/2010 6:14:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I am interested in doing yet another debate tournament. I have a few questions...

1) Who is interested? (this is not an official sign up)
2) Would you prefer a more basic form of debate (common resolutions with perhaps shorter character counts in order to make the tournament easy going), or would you prefer a more complex debate format (something like this: http://www.debate.org... )

-If we did the first one, we could do rounds on top of each other. The more complex one would probably be a one round at a time ordeal (perhaps 2 at a time if people seem to be willing).

I hope to get this going immediately after Christmas to A) Give people something to do during break, and B) Be able to finish it up before the new slate of classes get difficult.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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11/30/2010 6:21:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It won't be for 2 weeks or so. Although it's good to know that you can (or think you can) handle that many debates. lol
ChristianM
Posts: 1,764
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11/30/2010 7:02:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/30/2010 6:21:48 PM, Johnicle wrote:
It won't be for 2 weeks or so. Although it's good to know that you can (or think you can) handle that many debates. lol

SIGN ME UP NOWWW
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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11/30/2010 9:19:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/30/2010 7:06:37 PM, Atheism wrote:
I do not feel I am ready for such a tourney. It would be fun to watch, however.

Would you be alright with judging any rounds?
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/2/2010 11:40:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Bump

Lack of initial response has lead me to feel that going for a complex debate format would be counter-productive.

How about a 4,000 Character Count debate (basic topics) with 2 day's response time. Last time we did 2 day responses, people got upset, but with only 4,000 characters, it should take no longer than 30 minutes to post an argument.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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12/2/2010 11:46:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/2/2010 11:40:40 AM, Johnicle wrote:
Bump

Lack of initial response has lead me to feel that going for a complex debate format would be counter-productive.

How about a 4,000 Character Count debate (basic topics) with 2 day's response time. Last time we did 2 day responses, people got upset, but with only 4,000 characters, it should take no longer than 30 minutes to post an argument.

Sounds like fun. Sign me up if you're sticking to the basic format.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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12/2/2010 4:31:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/30/2010 9:19:43 PM, Johnicle wrote:
At 11/30/2010 7:06:37 PM, Atheism wrote:
I do not feel I am ready for such a tourney. It would be fun to watch, however.

Would you be alright with judging any rounds?
Sure. Tell me what to judge and I will do my best to impartial and fair.
I miss the old members.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/5/2010 7:59:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Topics:

RESOLVED: The United States should subsidize independent journalism.

RESOLVED: Members of the United Nations Security Council should strictly enforce the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

RESOLVED: A full scale military operation to prevent the negative effects of genocide should be initiated by the United States.

RESOLVED: On balance, living in a society of anarchy is better than living under a dictatorship.

RESOLVED: Ayn Rand's theory of Ethical Egoism is morally superior to moral theories inspired by altruism.

RESOLVED: A just government should, at a minimum, provide roads, health care, education, retirement funds, and military protection for its citizens.

RESOLVED: When in conflict, objective economic growth should be preferred to subjective free market values.

=====================================================================

A few things to note:

1. There will only be about 4-5 topics used for the duration of the tournament. 3 topics for prelims, and 1 or 2 topics for elimination rounds.

2. Voting for the topics will take place during sign ups. Every judge and competitor will have an opportunity to rate their top 4 or 5. The highest rated will be selected.

3. The list is not final. New topic suggestions are accepted. As well as word changes. The final discretion for the list is, however, mine but I will be open for suggestions.

=====================================================================

Finally, sign up will be anywhere from 1-2 weeks prior to the start of the tournament. However, does December 26th sound like a good start date for others?
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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12/5/2010 8:08:30 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Topic and start date sound good.

So how exactly do these work? Do people get to pick which side of the topic they want to argue?
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/5/2010 8:37:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2010 8:08:30 PM, LaissezFaire wrote:
Topic and start date sound good.

So how exactly do these work? Do people get to pick which side of the topic they want to argue?

At the beginning of each week, I will post the topic and who faces who. With each topic, you will debate both sides (so every week you will start 2 separate debates against 2 separate people)

This will happen for 3 straight weeks, making every person compete in a total of 6 debates. At the end of that, either the top 2 or top 4 (depending on numbers) will compete in a single-elim bracket to determine the winner.

This is most likely the way it will work out. There may be slight changes, but I'm fairly sure that there will be 3 topics with 6 debates for each person before going to elimination debates.

===================================================

QUESTION: We will either be doing 4,000 Character/2 days to post debates OR 5,000 Character/3 days to post debates... thoughts?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/5/2010 8:46:34 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
couldn't your opponent just copy your arguments for when your debating the opposite position and vice versa. For example, I'm debating The United States should subsidize independent journalism as pro in one debate and con in another. If i'm a good debater, con can look at my second debate, and use those arguments.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/5/2010 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2010 8:46:34 PM, darkkermit wrote:
couldn't your opponent just copy your arguments for when your debating the opposite position and vice versa. For example, I'm debating The United States should subsidize independent journalism as pro in one debate and con in another. If i'm a good debater, con can look at my second debate, and use those arguments.

The simple answer to that is yes, he could. In fact looking around at what other people are running is probably a good idea (when I competed in high school, at the end of a semester, people were oddly running what I ran at the beginning of the semester lol). However, I think there is an unwritten rule that people won't copy/paste them. Also, I doubt very much that your opponent will quote you and say something like "even he agrees with me" type of thing.

If a problem arises during the tournament, I will address it appropriately. However, avoiding this would probably lead to a bigger problem than the one it tries to solve. Not to mention, looking around at other debates could award the people who took the time to seek better arguments. Finally, the best debaters can beat even their own arguments, no matter how good they are.

Does this address your concern?
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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12/5/2010 11:02:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/5/2010 10:05:29 PM, Johnicle wrote:
At 12/5/2010 8:46:34 PM, darkkermit wrote:
couldn't your opponent just copy your arguments for when your debating the opposite position and vice versa. For example, I'm debating The United States should subsidize independent journalism as pro in one debate and con in another. If i'm a good debater, con can look at my second debate, and use those arguments.

The simple answer to that is yes, he could. In fact looking around at what other people are running is probably a good idea (when I competed in high school, at the end of a semester, people were oddly running what I ran at the beginning of the semester lol). However, I think there is an unwritten rule that people won't copy/paste them. Also, I doubt very much that your opponent will quote you and say something like "even he agrees with me" type of thing.

If a problem arises during the tournament, I will address it appropriately. However, avoiding this would probably lead to a bigger problem than the one it tries to solve. Not to mention, looking around at other debates could award the people who took the time to seek better arguments. Finally, the best debaters can beat even their own arguments, no matter how good they are.

Does this address your concern?

Not really. Explain why "avoiding this would probably lead to a bigger problem than the one it tries to solve. "
I agree that it is very unlikely that a person would directly copy and paste your argument.
However, it is likely a person could take the basic arguments. It's very difficult to prove that the arguments is stolen or original, since it is very plausible that a person and the opponent came up with the same argument independently. Why should one award somebody with arguments (and rebuttals) that are completely stolen? It doesn't take much effort to look at a person's debate.

A good debater should not have to be at the disadvantage to argue against oneself. A good debater shouldn't even have arguments that can be easily refuted. It's like saying the best fighter in the world should be able to fight a clone of oneself. Obviously one can not since he or she is at equal footing. By allowing a debater to steal from his or her opponent's ideas, it essential an unfair battle.

I don't see why one can not just choose only one side of the issue. I understand that you might feel that a debater should be able to argue both sides, but it leads to too many problems.
Open borders debate:
http://www.debate.org...
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/6/2010 12:09:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Not really. Explain why "avoiding this would probably lead to a bigger problem than the one it tries to solve. "

I have ran tournaments where everyone gets their own topic. Sounds like a great idea... however, it was a mess. It was extremely difficult to come up with enough topics that were actually fair to both sides and that people enjoyed debating. Coming up with the topics that I posted above took me about an hour to find and word appropriately (mostly just thinking of topics people would like).

It's sort of like a teacher making a test. Sure she could make a test for all 30 of her students to prevent cheating, but that would be silly when she could just make 1 quality test for everyone to take. Not only because it's more fair for the students, but also because it's just easier for everyone.

I agree that it is very unlikely that a person would directly copy and paste your argument.
However, it is likely a person could take the basic arguments. It's very difficult to prove that the arguments is stolen or original, since it is very plausible that a person and the opponent came up with the same argument independently. Why should one award somebody with arguments (and rebuttals) that are completely stolen? It doesn't take much effort to look at a person's debate.

Well one thing that I haven't mentioned yet is that all of these debates will be happening simultaneously. Meaning that you will not be able to just pull up an entire debate on the same topic to get exactly how to run the arguments.

Also, it's hard to steal other people's explanations and persuasion. Sure you could steal the argument "the death penalty does not provide a deterrent effect", but it does you no good if you can't explain why.

Also, looking at other people's debates is something that EVERYONE will be able to do. It therefore doesn't give one person an advantage over another.

Finally, most, if not all, debate winners are decided by the quality of the rebuttal speeches. It is unlikely that people will be in similar scenarios.

A good debater should not have to be at the disadvantage to argue against oneself. A good debater shouldn't even have arguments that can be easily refuted. It's like saying the best fighter in the world should be able to fight a clone of oneself. Obviously one can not since he or she is at equal footing. By allowing a debater to steal from his or her opponent's ideas, it essential an unfair battle.

This would be true if debate arguments were absolute fact. However, it is merely a clash of opinions supported by fact. A significant difference between debaters and judges is that debaters see their arguments as absolute, while judges see them as debatable opinions (which is why the attack/defense of these opinions is so important)

I don't see why one can not just choose only one side of the issue. I understand that you might feel that a debater should be able to argue both sides, but it leads to too many problems.

If we let people decide which side they wanted, it would first of all extend the tournament for the time it took for people to decide. But it would most certainly lead to there being an imbalance in debaters on certain sides of the resolutions.

Look, you do have a point that people may look at others arguments, but I feel that qualitative topics should outweigh quantitative ones. Not to mention, that I personally feel that it is easier to defend arguments that I came up with. Since most debates are decided by the attacks/defenses against other arguments, it seems imprudent to worry about initial arguments being stolen.

Further concerns?
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/8/2010 9:26:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I am still relatively new to DDO, but I'm certainly interested in a tournament.

Although I also was concerned about stealing arguments, doing enough PFD in school has shown me although people certainly steal points, it does no good unless you can truly deliver it. Also, the best debaters are the ones who take the common arguments, but analyze and support them to a point that it becomes entirely their own.
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/13/2010 6:43:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I was going to start sign ups tonight, but perhaps I should delay the tournament until the (apparent) 10 day transition is over.
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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12/13/2010 6:45:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/13/2010 6:43:33 PM, Johnicle wrote:
I was going to start sign ups tonight, but perhaps I should delay the tournament until the (apparent) 10 day transition is over.

I thought the tournament wasn't starting until after the 25th anyway. You could still start sign-ups now.
Should we subsidize education?
http://www.debate.org...

http://mises.org...

http://lewrockwell.com...

http://antiwar.com...

: At 6/22/2011 6:57:23 PM, el-badgero wrote:
: i didn't like [Obama]. he was the only black dude in moneygall yet he claimed to be home. obvious liar is obvious liar. i bet him and bin laden are bumfvcking right now.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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12/13/2010 7:38:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I thought the tournament wasn't starting until after the 25th anyway. You could still start sign-ups now.

Well the sooner the sign ups are, the more time there are for people to forget that they signed up... Trust me on that one.