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RFD WF vs. BSH1

kasmic
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7/15/2016 4:34:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
This is my RFD for this debate: http://www.debate.org...

Great debate from both sides. I knew next to nothing about this topic prior. I will provide my analysis of both cases and then present my vote. I hope this feedback is valuable.

Con"s Case:

Whiteflame argues cost, risk, and side effects of PMF"s.

Cost: Whiteflame (WF) explains that PMF"s are expensive. So much so that each contractor costs around 6 times what soldiers are paid. It is shown that despite the extreme expense they are not effective. BSH1 contends that this argument puts WF in a double blind. It seems to me that con has sufficiently shown that PMF"s are costly and so I will mainly focus on pro"s rebuttals to this outcome. If PMF"s cost so much, then the expense is a disincentive to their use. Especially, pro claims, as the American people are concerned with the budget. WF responds by arguing that the cost has not been a disincentive. This is supported as the majority of Americans are in favor of military spending. Rather, con argues that loss of life is the disincentive to war. As I am shown by the arguments that PMF"s are negatively expensive, this argument goes to Con.

Risk: Next, WF claims PMF"s are known for illegal acts, though punishment is difficult as they are non-state actors. This lack of accountability leads to subverting codes of conduct in war and results in unspeakable actions. This creates war scenarios with a lack of regulation and accountability. BSH counters this in two significant ways. First he claims that con"s examples are cherry picked. Ultimately, I think this criticism is valid, though pro does not provide more data or examples that provide context or indicate otherwise. Thus, I am lead to accept con"s example cherry picked or not. Second, pro argues that abusive behavior is not unique to PMF"s. This is strongly supported through examples and sourcing. Furthermore, I buy pro"s criticism that WF is inconsistent to argue that PMF"s cause damage to the U.S and that the U.S. hides dubious actions with PMF"s. This contention IMO is enough to negate this contention. Pro wins this argument.

Side Effects: Con demonstrates that often funding these companies and facilitating their growth, we facilitate a broad array of groups, many of which are already our enemies. WF concludes that American taxpayers are funding warlords. Furthermore, it is shown that the U.S. sets a standard that other nations may follow in using PMF"s. Again, pro claims cherry picking. It seems to me that if there is cherry picking, counter examples ought to be provided. BSH also contends that the US not using PMF"s allows other countries to gain the benefits of PMF"s. Ultimately I find this unconvincing. WF also argues that the use of PMFs have caused nations to lose the monopoly on force creating a state of disorder. While I find this argument intriguing it is hardly mentioned. I give this argument to con though with little weight as not much impact is warranted.

My Thoughts: These arguments are well sourced and explained. Though, in my opinion WF"s main point seems to be made in his summary. He states that "The U.S. should not have access to a workaround solution that keeps the nation from understanding the true cost of wars as they progress." He even briefly argues that Countries that have to send their own soldiers have to justify it to a greater degree than to just pay PMF"s. I liked where this seems to be headed, but the argument gets lost in this debate and is never fully articulated. While I do see this implied throughout the arguments it is not explicitly linked as perhaps it could have been.

Pro"s Case:

BSH1 argues the PMF"s beneficial as they are often the best option, fill a void, promote responsiveness and bring local benefits.

PMFs Fill a Void: Pro shows that PMF"s make up a substantial part of U.S. military efforts at around 36%. Con"s argues that PMF"s are often under trained and ill equipped. This is later contested by Pro though I find the point moot as while I can use my imagination as to how this argument may mitigate pro"s initial point, con does not seem to do enough to link the two in a significant way. Pro Further argues that the void PMF"s fill is essential as he demonstrates that recruitment efforts to the military are not reaching their targets and often use aggressive techniques to recruit. (There is an argument here that to increase recruitment would require a large amount of money. While this cost is well sourced it seems to me to pale in comparison to WF"s cost argument. ) Ultimately, due to size PMF"s make-up I buy this argument from pro and give this argument BSH1.

PMFs Best Option: As recruitment appears to be costly and ineffective, it is argued that perhaps the only other alternative to PMF"s would be a draft. BSH1 cites drafts as unappealing and coercive. To which WF claims that a draft holds the people and nation to higher accountability. BSH argues that conscripts are less motivated, educated, creative, and reliable. Conversely the case is made that PMF"s have several benefits. They can be quickly mobilized, as well as demobilized. Con says this is not a benefit, though does not really argue why. Pro argues this saves the U.S. military as "It is much harder for national military organizations to find those kinds of specific skills and experience, and deploy them to a particular arena." This is supported with a specific example. As I have already given the void argument to pro that there is a void that needs to be filled I am led to buy this argument as the alternative was a draft which pro does enough to convince me is not a good alternative.

PMFs Promote Responsiveness: BSH1 again emphasizes the benefit of rapid deployment. Public support for long term military has been falling. Despite the lack of support, pro argues that the U.S. has an obligation to stabilize countries we have occupied. PMF"s can fill in as public support causes the U.S. to withdraw their servicemen. I thought this argument was reasonably supported, it does seem to have been partially negated due the harms from WF"s Risk and Side effects. This is a win for pro with little impact to my vote.

PMFs & Local Benefits: Finally BSH1 argues PMF"s often provide a local stake in the mission, can help locals succeed post-conflict, and can boast the economy of local populations. Essentially the arguments against this seemed to me to be, those benefits or experience, training and money should go to US troops. This argument became a wash and does not weigh in my vote.

My Vote/RFD

Despite my vote not actually counting I still have found this debate difficult to decide on.

The burdens in this debate have been made clear by both sides. We are assessing net benefits to either side. I have WF winning the argument that PMF"s cost is a net negative and that side effects can be harmful. I have BSH1 winning the argument that PMF"s fill a void and there is a lack of a good alternative. IMO this debate goes the BSH1. I am convinced that the void needs to be filled and that outweighs the arguments WF wins. That's my $.02 I vote Pro.
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bsh1
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7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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kasmic
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7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
bsh1
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7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
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Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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7/15/2016 11:05:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.

Seriously, It is probably the best debate on this website in the last few months.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
fire_wings
Posts: 5,551
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7/15/2016 11:54:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 11:05:28 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.

Seriously, It is probably the best debate on this website in the last few months.

But it was too short
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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7/15/2016 11:57:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 11:05:28 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.

Seriously, It is probably the best debate on this website in the last few months.

Thanks.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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7/16/2016 12:37:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 11:54:23 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:05:28 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.

Seriously, It is probably the best debate on this website in the last few months.

But it was too short

Seemed long.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
fire_wings
Posts: 5,551
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7/16/2016 12:38:36 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 12:37:09 AM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:54:23 PM, fire_wings wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:05:28 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:01:51 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 11:00:30 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:51:07 PM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/15/2016 10:50:11 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 7/15/2016 7:54:55 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Thanks for the vote Kasmic.

No problem, sorry its after the voting period. It was one heck of a debate.

You may have a chance to cast it--whiteflame and I are trying to get more real votes somehow.

That would be good, it really should have gotten more attention. I am surprised it only had the one vote.

Yeah. Whiteflame and I were a bit downcast at that fact.

Seriously, It is probably the best debate on this website in the last few months.

But it was too short

Seemed long.

Only 3 rounds
#ALLHAILFIRETHEKINGOFTHEMISCFORUM

...it's not a new policy... it's just that DDO was built on an ancient burial ground, and that means the spirits of old rise again to cause us problems sometimes- Airmax1227

Wtf you must have an IQ of 250 if you're 11 and already decent at this- 16k

Go to sleep!!!!- missmozart

So to start off, I never committed suicide- Vaarka
whiteflame
Posts: 1,378
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7/16/2016 4:42:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/15/2016 4:34:05 PM, kasmic wrote:

I appreciate the RFD, dude. You really shouldn't get so down on yourself, I do think you do a good job voting.
kasmic
Posts: 1,302
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7/16/2016 5:20:09 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 4:42:30 AM, whiteflame wrote:
At 7/15/2016 4:34:05 PM, kasmic wrote:

I appreciate the RFD, dude. You really shouldn't get so down on yourself, I do think you do a good job voting.

Thanks. Voting on a solid debate like this is much more intimidating for me than debating itself.
"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...

Check out my website, the Sensible Soapbox http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
My latest article: http://www.sensiblesoapbox.com...
bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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7/16/2016 7:38:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/16/2016 5:20:09 AM, kasmic wrote:

http://www.debate.org...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...