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Wisconsin Protests

OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 3:45:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
*because my state is just that awesome*

I actually returned to see if this had been talked about yet and found that there were no topics about it. I was saddened to see my state's issues not being discussed on the illustrious debate.org :(

Plus I wanted to see how many people would randomly focus on "fat cat teachers".
Noblesse Oblige
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/18/2011 9:19:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
My gf has been blowing it up all over her Facebook (she doesn't like DDO) and is going to a rally today.
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askbob
Posts: 7,254
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2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now
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OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 12:23:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Do you actually know what you're talking about or are you just blowing hot air?
Noblesse Oblige
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/18/2011 12:28:22 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:23:07 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Do you actually know what you're talking about or are you just blowing hot air?

Anyone who's gone to high school knows that.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 12:33:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:28:22 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:23:07 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Do you actually know what you're talking about or are you just blowing hot air?

Anyone who's gone to high school knows that.

Knows that all the teachers in Wisconsin are incompetent?
Noblesse Oblige
darkkermit
Posts: 11,204
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2/18/2011 12:38:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Apparently it's illegal for businesses to create a monopoly (antitrust laws) on goods and services yet its perfectly legitimate for workers to create a monopoly (labor unions) on their services to businesses.
Open borders debate:
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OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 12:41:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:38:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Apparently it's illegal for businesses to create a monopoly (antitrust laws) on goods and services yet its perfectly legitimate for workers to create a monopoly (labor unions) on their services to businesses.

Idk about other states but this isn't the case in Wisconsin. Union Correction Officers and non-Union Contractors work side by side in prisons and jails. Likewise non-union teachers work alongside union teachers in classrooms.
Noblesse Oblige
Steelerman6794
Posts: 158
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2/18/2011 12:59:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:41:57 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:38:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Apparently it's illegal for businesses to create a monopoly (antitrust laws) on goods and services yet its perfectly legitimate for workers to create a monopoly (labor unions) on their services to businesses.

Idk about other states but this isn't the case in Wisconsin. Union Correction Officers and non-Union Contractors work side by side in prisons and jails. Likewise non-union teachers work alongside union teachers in classrooms.

So is Wisconsin a "right to work" state?
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 1:01:01 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Likewise, Wisconsin has run a "merit before tenure" policy for at least a decade in regards to teachers and Wisconsin itself produces some of the best educated individuals on any level in the country.

Though as the above statements tell, people are apparently ignoring the fact that the teachers unions or a minor portion of those being negatively affected by this fake bill.

Generalized band wagoning much?
Noblesse Oblige
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/18/2011 1:04:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:59:36 PM, Steelerman6794 wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:41:57 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:38:13 PM, darkkermit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Apparently it's illegal for businesses to create a monopoly (antitrust laws) on goods and services yet its perfectly legitimate for workers to create a monopoly (labor unions) on their services to businesses.

Idk about other states but this isn't the case in Wisconsin. Union Correction Officers and non-Union Contractors work side by side in prisons and jails. Likewise non-union teachers work alongside union teachers in classrooms.

So is Wisconsin a "right to work" state?

No actually. However I believe the reason is that the unions have never asked for a closed shop.
Noblesse Oblige
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/18/2011 1:26:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 12:33:44 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:28:22 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 2/18/2011 12:23:07 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 9:44:26 AM, askbob wrote:
Lol I'm glad those worthless unions are finally being put into pasture. It's about time we got rid of the incompetant teachers who are preventing decent hardworking college graduates from taking their place.

I don't understand how an organization that promotes seniority over competency hasn't been eliminated by now

Do you actually know what you're talking about or are you just blowing hot air?

Anyone who's gone to high school knows that.

Knows that all the teachers in Wisconsin are incompetent?

Because that's what Askbob was saying, really, brilliant come back.
Anyone who's gone to high school knows it's nearly impossible to fire an incompetent teacher who's been there long enough.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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2/18/2011 2:21:02 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 1:01:01 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
Likewise, Wisconsin has run a "merit before tenure" policy for at least a decade in regards to teachers and Wisconsin itself produces some of the best educated individuals on any level in the country.

Getting rid of tenure is a good idea in the notion of rewarding on merit, rather than on seniority. The problem is in the implementation of the merit system.
Unions have the school board by the cajones, as evident in Union threats. No real change ever occurs, it just looks good for talking points. I agree with kermit that a monopoly on the workforce does not have the interests of the students in mind at all.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 2:21:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/18/2011 1:01:01 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
Likewise, Wisconsin has run a "merit before tenure" policy for at least a decade in regards to teachers and Wisconsin itself produces some of the best educated individuals on any level in the country.

Getting rid of tenure is a good idea in the notion of rewarding on merit, rather than on seniority. The problem is in the implementation of the merit system.
Unions have the school board by the cajones, as evident in Union threats. No real change ever occurs, it just looks good for talking points. I agree with kermit that a monopoly on the workforce does not have the interests of the students in mind at all.

The only thing they have interest in is jobs. The teacher's union is the largest union in the world, and in my opinion responsible for the poor quality of product, bloated contracts, incompetent teacher retaining their jobs, complete lack of creative alternatives. Students are graduating without some of the most basic of skills or knowledge. If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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2/19/2011 1:49:26 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/18/2011 2:21:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/18/2011 1:01:01 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
Likewise, Wisconsin has run a "merit before tenure" policy for at least a decade in regards to teachers and Wisconsin itself produces some of the best educated individuals on any level in the country.

Getting rid of tenure is a good idea in the notion of rewarding on merit, rather than on seniority. The problem is in the implementation of the merit system.
Unions have the school board by the cajones, as evident in Union threats. No real change ever occurs, it just looks good for talking points. I agree with kermit that a monopoly on the workforce does not have the interests of the students in mind at all.

The only thing they have interest in is jobs. The teacher's union is the largest union in the world, and in my opinion responsible for the poor quality of product, bloated contracts, incompetent teacher retaining their jobs, complete lack of creative alternatives. Students are graduating without some of the most basic of skills or knowledge. If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?

So what exactly gives someone else the right to take away the right to collectively bargain away from corrections officers, nurses, teachers, garbage collectors, snow-plow drivers, and other public-sector employees (who when salary and benefits are combined, make slightly less than there private-sector counterparts)? Does that mean that I have the right to deny another persons right to own a fire arm?

Additionally Wisconsin was (anyway) not in any form of financial trouble. On January 20th when the newly elected republicans came into office, Doyle and the Democrats handed them a $147 million budget surplus (Wisconsin has no fiscal debt, law prevents the government from spending into a deficit.). Two weeks later Walker and the republican controlled legislature forced through several bills which turned that completely around. First they reversed the previous law that prevented the government from spending into a deficit. They than passed several tax cuts for large corporations and actually reimbursed these corporations (SC Johnson, Harley-Davidson, Wal-mart, etc.) retroactively resulting in the budget being changed to a $137 million deficit (the tax cuts will likewise produce over $3.3 billion budget shortfall over the next over the next 2-3 years).

Finally the "budget reform bill" as little to do with the actual budget. Walker has it outlined to shift some of the public-sector employee costs (such as the pension numbers) however most of the bill are articles to weaken the public-sector unions and increase Walker's own power over the state.
1.) Removal of the public-sector union's ability to collectively bargain on all except salary however that is to be severally restricted.
2.) Change the numerous elected offices to appointed ones (DNR chief, Attorney General, several judge positions) and would give Walker the power to dismiss those recently elected (in the same election in November that he was elected to) and appoint who he sees fit to the positions.
3.) The bill also separates UW Madison from the rest of the UW college system, allows Walker to dismiss the newly elected school board (also from this past November) and appoint new board members as he sees fit.

It is a blatant power grab straight of of the fascist play books of Mussolini and Hitler.

And how exactly is the above reason for the budget deficit occurring the fault of the unions (including the teachers union which you all seem to continue to bandwagon against)?

Also just to point out all of the municipal governments in Wisconsin (city, village, and county) are all in the green, none of them have budget deficits. The budget issue is solely on the state-level. The unions that Walker is attacking don't even negotiate with the state government, they do so with the municipal governments that aren't even having a budget problem. Walker literally created a problem on the state level to give him the justification to attack groups on the local level.
Noblesse Oblige
Steelerman6794
Posts: 158
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2/19/2011 7:40:47 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 1:49:26 AM, OrionsGambit wrote:
At 2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM, innomen wrote:
At 2/18/2011 2:21:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 2/18/2011 1:01:01 PM, OrionsGambit wrote:
Likewise, Wisconsin has run a "merit before tenure" policy for at least a decade in regards to teachers and Wisconsin itself produces some of the best educated individuals on any level in the country.

Getting rid of tenure is a good idea in the notion of rewarding on merit, rather than on seniority. The problem is in the implementation of the merit system.
Unions have the school board by the cajones, as evident in Union threats. No real change ever occurs, it just looks good for talking points. I agree with kermit that a monopoly on the workforce does not have the interests of the students in mind at all.

The only thing they have interest in is jobs. The teacher's union is the largest union in the world, and in my opinion responsible for the poor quality of product, bloated contracts, incompetent teacher retaining their jobs, complete lack of creative alternatives. Students are graduating without some of the most basic of skills or knowledge. If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?

So what exactly gives someone else the right to take away the right to collectively bargain away from corrections officers, nurses, teachers, garbage collectors, snow-plow drivers, and other public-sector employees (who when salary and benefits are combined, make slightly less than there private-sector counterparts)? Does that mean that I have the right to deny another persons right to own a fire arm?

Additionally Wisconsin was (anyway) not in any form of financial trouble. On January 20th when the newly elected republicans came into office, Doyle and the Democrats handed them a $147 million budget surplus (Wisconsin has no fiscal debt, law prevents the government from spending into a deficit.). Two weeks later Walker and the republican controlled legislature forced through several bills which turned that completely around. First they reversed the previous law that prevented the government from spending into a deficit. They than passed several tax cuts for large corporations and actually reimbursed these corporations (SC Johnson, Harley-Davidson, Wal-mart, etc.) retroactively resulting in the budget being changed to a $137 million deficit (the tax cuts will likewise produce over $3.3 billion budget shortfall over the next over the next 2-3 years).

Finally the "budget reform bill" as little to do with the actual budget. Walker has it outlined to shift some of the public-sector employee costs (such as the pension numbers) however most of the bill are articles to weaken the public-sector unions and increase Walker's own power over the state.
1.) Removal of the public-sector union's ability to collectively bargain on all except salary however that is to be severally restricted.
2.) Change the numerous elected offices to appointed ones (DNR chief, Attorney General, several judge positions) and would give Walker the power to dismiss those recently elected (in the same election in November that he was elected to) and appoint who he sees fit to the positions.
3.) The bill also separates UW Madison from the rest of the UW college system, allows Walker to dismiss the newly elected school board (also from this past November) and appoint new board members as he sees fit.

It is a blatant power grab straight of of the fascist play books of Mussolini and Hitler.

And how exactly is the above reason for the budget deficit occurring the fault of the unions (including the teachers union which you all seem to continue to bandwagon against)?

Also just to point out all of the municipal governments in Wisconsin (city, village, and county) are all in the green, none of them have budget deficits. The budget issue is solely on the state-level. The unions that Walker is attacking don't even negotiate with the state government, they do so with the municipal governments that aren't even having a budget problem. Walker literally created a problem on the state level to give him the justification to attack groups on the local level.

So yes, the Union can't lobby for free health care at taxpayer expense. Notice that these are ALL public employees being affected by this bill, and none private, and all such employees are being paid by the collective citizens of Wisconsin.
TheAtheistAllegiance
Posts: 1,251
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2/19/2011 2:20:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I actually support the governor's proposal to an extent. I think the first step to reforming American education is to bring down the barriers that the Unions hold in place. Plus, the budget plan that requires teachers to pay for half of their benefits only amounts to 5.8% of their overall salary. And unlike the federal government, the states spend an overwhelming percentage of their budgets on education, so there isn't much else that can be done when there's a deficit that need be dealt with. It's not as if Wisconsin could cut defense spending in order to uphold teacher salaries.
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/20/2011 12:02:53 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Walker's administration is bringing a new level of competition to our state's government - it has become intensely cut-throat.
no comment
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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2/20/2011 12:19:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
People have a right to collective bargain just as much as corporations do.

The government has a right to bust up these monopolies when they abuse this right, and aspects of society suffer.
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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2/20/2011 2:26:27 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Did anyone mention how the Dems are fleeing the state and some are hiding out in hotels across the boarder in Illinois? They are dispatching state troopers to go try to round them up.
http://news.yahoo.com...
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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2/20/2011 5:25:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 2:26:27 PM, lewis20 wrote:
Did anyone mention how the Dems are fleeing the state and some are hiding out in hotels across the boarder in Illinois? They are dispatching state troopers to go try to round them up.
http://news.yahoo.com...

Sure is nice to know that the national interest money we pay to China is going to a worthy cause.
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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2/20/2011 5:34:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM, innomen wrote:
The only thing they have interest in is jobs. The teacher's union is the largest union in the world, and in my opinion responsible for the poor quality of product, bloated contracts, incompetent teacher retaining their jobs, complete lack of creative alternatives. Students are graduating without some of the most basic of skills or knowledge. If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?

This
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Caramel
Posts: 855
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2/21/2011 10:53:21 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/20/2011 5:34:07 PM, askbob wrote:
At 2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM, innomen wrote:
The only thing they have interest in is jobs. The teacher's union is the largest union in the world, and in my opinion responsible for the poor quality of product, bloated contracts, incompetent teacher retaining their jobs, complete lack of creative alternatives. Students are graduating without some of the most basic of skills or knowledge. If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?

This

Shouldn't science and history be taught?
no comment
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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2/21/2011 12:06:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/19/2011 2:20:13 PM, TheAtheistAllegiance wrote:
I actually support the governor's proposal to an extent. I think the first step to reforming American education is to bring down the barriers that the Unions hold in place. Plus, the budget plan that requires teachers to pay for half of their benefits only amounts to 5.8% of their overall salary. And unlike the federal government, the states spend an overwhelming percentage of their budgets on education, so there isn't much else that can be done when there's a deficit that need be dealt with. It's not as if Wisconsin could cut defense spending in order to uphold teacher salaries.

You do realize that the governer created this deficit just months ago. Rather then attacking unions, he should undo the spending that he already forced through.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/21/2011 12:56:07 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/18/2011 4:27:58 PM, innomen wrote:
If you ask the average high school student anything about WWII they won't even know who fought. Ahh, but if you ask them about global warming, they seem to know all about environmental issues, strange huh?

This is BS. It's not that the teachers are too liberal; it's that they're overall ineffective. If students are not retaining facts in history then they're not retaining concepts about global warming. Also you can blame things like this on Bush's NCLB policy. "I was gonna write a report on WWII, but I was too busy studying for standardized tests to learn how to write a report. So instead I will just say the following answers from my last test: A, D, A, A, C , B, D..." Incompetent teachers are a huge problem, but not the only problem.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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2/21/2011 12:57:21 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 2/21/2011 10:53:21 AM, Caramel wrote:
Shouldn't science and history be taught?

This (not that I like public schools lol).
President of DDO