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Water boarding under Obama

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/4/2011 4:22:06 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Leon Panetta, Obama's appointed head of the CIA confirmed that waterboarding was used in extracting information that allowed the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

To those who are against torture, does this sway you, or to those who voted for this president under the assumption that such practices would be abolished, and GITMO would be closed are you disappointed?

Honestly, this just seems like George Bush's third term.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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5/4/2011 8:26:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 4:22:06 AM, innomen wrote:
Leon Panetta, Obama's appointed head of the CIA confirmed that waterboarding was used in extracting information that allowed the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden. http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

To those who are against torture, does this sway you, or to those who voted for this president under the assumption that such practices would be abolished, and GITMO would be closed are you disappointed?:

It doesn't sway me at all. What was extracted exactly? That Osama used a courier to pass messages versus doing it electronically. Big deal. It did nothing to find that person. What they are referencing was done back in 2003 and bears no reflection on current events.

See this kind of attitude just leads to a bigger monster. Well, if waterboarding works decently, then as long as we keep upping the ante, then we'll really extract good information!

It's like the CIA's black sites. They would go to another country with no rendition, employ the services of another country's intelligence service to do the dirty work for the CIA. That way the CIA is not "technically" violating the Constitution.

If the United States starts acting like the enemy, then how is it any better?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/4/2011 10:01:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
well, I've supported the use of torture any way, so I guess this does nothing to my opinion.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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5/4/2011 10:47:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
What was obtained was the code name of the courier serving bin Laden. That led to fining his real name and then to finding bin Laden.

It was done under Bush in a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe. Under the Obama Administration the only form of interrogation permitted in that allowed by the Army Field Manual. The Manual is published so that terrorists know ahead of time that they need say absolutely nothing and no harm will come to them. The CIA, which got all the useful info under Bush, is not allowed to interrogate prisoners.

Bush policies also established that they could be kept as enemy combatants, rather than being read their Miranda rights when captured and afforded a civilian trial.

Now, it is not clear that captured terrorists are even imprisoned. No prisoners are being added to GITMO and none are being brought to the US mainland. So if there are any, where are they?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/4/2011 10:50:49 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 10:47:55 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
What was obtained was the code name of the courier serving bin Laden. That led to fining his real name and then to finding bin Laden.

It was done under Bush in a secret CIA prison in Eastern Europe. Under the Obama Administration the only form of interrogation permitted in that allowed by the Army Field Manual. The Manual is published so that terrorists know ahead of time that they need say absolutely nothing and no harm will come to them. The CIA, which got all the useful info under Bush, is not allowed to interrogate prisoners.

Bush policies also established that they could be kept as enemy combatants, rather than being read their Miranda rights when captured and afforded a civilian trial.

Now, it is not clear that captured terrorists are even imprisoned. No prisoners are being added to GITMO and none are being brought to the US mainland. So if there are any, where are they?

re-re-re-rendition!
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
askbob
Posts: 7,254
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5/4/2011 1:53:04 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
i've always been pro torture
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
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askbob
Posts: 7,254
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5/4/2011 2:06:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 1:58:39 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/4/2011 1:53:04 PM, askbob wrote:
i've always been pro torture

I'm sure that's what Jesus would want.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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5/4/2011 2:15:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:06:41 PM, askbob wrote:
At 5/4/2011 1:58:39 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/4/2011 1:53:04 PM, askbob wrote:
i've always been pro torture

I'm sure that's what Jesus would want.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Acts 29:27-30 "And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."

Matthew 5:43-47 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/4/2011 2:22:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 10:01:42 AM, OreEle wrote:
well, I've supported the use of torture any way, so I guess this does nothing to my opinion.

With no limit and for any goal?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/4/2011 2:33:14 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:22:41 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/4/2011 10:01:42 AM, OreEle wrote:
well, I've supported the use of torture any way, so I guess this does nothing to my opinion.

With no limit and for any goal?

Obviously not the absolute extreme, pretty much no one supports the absolute extreme for pro-torture.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/4/2011 2:40:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:33:14 PM, OreEle wrote:

Obviously not the absolute extreme, pretty much no one supports the absolute extreme for pro-torture.

For what minimum goal would you support torture and what would be the maximum allowed? Do you consider it a moral act?
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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5/4/2011 2:52:58 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:40:37 PM, Cliff.Stamp wrote:
At 5/4/2011 2:33:14 PM, OreEle wrote:

Obviously not the absolute extreme, pretty much no one supports the absolute extreme for pro-torture.

For what minimum goal would you support torture and what would be the maximum allowed?

Torture should be used only on someone that is known to be guilty and have reason to suspect (through standard interogation) knows more information about the guilt of others or the location of other guilty people. In other words, don't torture people that are suspected, to get a confession.

The degree of torture depends entirely on how pertinent the info that we believe the person has, and based upon a psycho-analysis of the person to determine what methods would work best. We would also have to consider what the "guilty" person that we currently have is guilty off.

If they are a terrorist who was caught on the battlefield after throwing a bomb in a crowd, then I believe that nothing should be blacklisted. If it is a kid in a gang that we caught robbing a store and we are hoping to get info on the gang hideout and top bosses, somethings will be blacklisted because the kid is only guilty of theft. The level of torture should not outweigh the entire punishment that the crime fits, except under extreme circumstances.

Do you consider it a moral act?

no.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Cliff.Stamp
Posts: 2,169
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5/4/2011 7:35:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/4/2011 2:52:58 PM, OreEle wrote:

Do you consider it a moral act?

no.

Yet you support it, that is interesting. Would you support the torture of an innocent to leverage the guilty? Do you support the use of terrorism?
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/5/2011 1:10:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
this is waterboarding that occurred during the bush administration. and in any case, i think this is an attempt by the CIA to justify its past actions and create a more positive image for itself rather than a vindication of torture. the information couldn't have been that vital if it still took years to find him after possessing it. the link is tenuous at best.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/5/2011 9:29:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 5/5/2011 1:10:41 AM, belle wrote:
this is waterboarding that occurred during the bush administration. and in any case, i think this is an attempt by the CIA to justify its past actions and create a more positive image for itself rather than a vindication of torture. the information couldn't have been that vital if it still took years to find him after possessing it. the link is tenuous at best.

From what I heard they got his cell phone info.. and he accidentally left it on one time when he went to see osama.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."