Total Posts:18|Showing Posts:1-18
Jump to topic:

Justice?

innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this i just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but i don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/2/2011 3:13:44 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM, innomen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this i just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but i don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.

It isn't (IMO). If my life was all but over (my and child were killed), I'd have no issue with killing someone and spending life in prison. I'd actually find it to be superior to being homeless (and likely freezing to death), since I'll be feed and sheltered for the rest of my life without having to work. It'd allow me to simply detatch from the world (which is what I'd do if I lost everything) without actually having to die.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/8/2011 3:30:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Okay so which one of you wants to debate me on the death penalty? I see you're both Pro and I'm Con. I'd also debate Roy on the subject as he's Pro as well and I know he beat mongeese so that'd be a fun challenge for me. I haven't debated anything serious in a lonnng time... might as well :)
President of DDO
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2011 11:38:41 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/8/2011 3:30:38 PM, Danielle wrote:
Okay so which one of you wants to debate me on the death penalty? I see you're both Pro and I'm Con. I'd also debate Roy on the subject as he's Pro as well and I know he beat mongeese so that'd be a fun challenge for me. I haven't debated anything serious in a lonnng time... might as well :)

I call it.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2011 12:43:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM, innomen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this i just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but i don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.

These people are evil scum, no doubt about that, but prison is a worse punishment than death because their fellow inmates will make their lives unbearable.

There was a high profile case over here where a guy called Ian Huntley murdered two 11 year-old girls, possibly having sexually abused them. He was sent to prison for life but tries to commit suicide at every opportunity he gets because his fellow prisons make his life an absolute misery.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2011 8:52:38 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I think they should reintroduce hard labour. Death is too easy for criminals of this nature. Go and move rocks from one side of the yard to the other for the rest of your life.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...
askbob
Posts: 7,254
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/9/2011 8:57:15 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM, innomen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this i just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but i don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.

When I initially opened the link I thought it was about pokemon
Me -Phil left the site in my charge. I have a recorded phone conversation to prove it.
kohai -If you're the owner, then do something useful like ip block him and get us away from juggle and on a dofferent host!
Me -haha you apparently don't know my history
Kohai - Maybe not, but that doesn't matter! You shoukd still listen to your community and quit being a tyrrant!
Me - i was being completely sarcastic
Kohai - then u misrepresented yourself by impersonating the owner—a violation of the tos
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/12/2011 10:49:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/9/2011 10:37:38 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Prison is ridiculous.

Yeah, pretty much.

I'd also like someone to define justice. Anyone? Anyone?

And thanks to OreEle for accepting the debate and issuing me a challenge :) I hope Roy and inno will follow! I know you all have vastly different reasons for supporting the death penalty, as an authoritarian, conservative and libertarian. It would be interesting to get all perspectives.
President of DDO
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 12:56:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
I don't much care to have him killed.. :/

I doubt he's a danger to the other prisoners/guards...

that said, I also don't much care to have him kept alive.. If it were cheaper I'd say killing him would be the way to go..

but it's not.. so :/
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 4:28:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 10:49:38 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/9/2011 10:37:38 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Prison is ridiculous.

Yeah, pretty much.

I'd also like someone to define justice. Anyone? Anyone?

And thanks to OreEle for accepting the debate and issuing me a challenge :) I hope Roy and inno will follow! I know you all have vastly different reasons for supporting the death penalty, as an authoritarian, conservative and libertarian. It would be interesting to get all perspectives.

Penalty fitting the crime - essentially. Revenge should not be a component of justice as far as i am concerned. Getting a $500 moving violation ticket for going through a red light at 2 in the morning on a deserted street is not justice in my opinion, and i will admit that when i read this case and thought of a punishment it was very difficult for me to think of a penalty that was not based in emotion. I know that you cannot completely remove the emotional component from the equation, but in this case my emotion seems to overwhelm my decision making process. TV actually raised an obvious point, but i take no joy in making someone suffer for any reason, but i do think that the removal from society of someone like this is completely reasonable, and i don't consider prison the removal from society - i mean complete removal. In fact the arguments against it are often just as emotionally based as those who want the person dead.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,222
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 7:30:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/12/2011 10:49:38 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 6/9/2011 10:37:38 PM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Prison is ridiculous.

Yeah, pretty much.

I'd also like someone to define justice. Anyone? Anyone?


Arbitrary enforcement of arbitrary rights? The "No Justice, no peace" crowd believes peace must be forced upon us. Maybe they are right.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 7:36:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM, innomen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this i just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but i don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.:

It's a mistake to ever think that anything can compensate for lose time and the mental trauma of being enslaved for years upon years. There is no justice in the world that is actually balanced. Justice is just what we replace vengeance with.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 9:33:09 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/13/2011 7:36:02 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 6/2/2011 3:06:41 PM, innomen wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com...

In cases like this I just don't see how a life sentence is enough. I know there are worse crimes, and maybe worse criminals, but I don't think justice is served by life in prison for these two.:

It's a mistake to ever think that anything can compensate for lose time and the mental trauma of being enslaved for years upon years. There is no justice in the world that is actually balanced. Justice is just what we replace vengeance with.

I admit in cases like this it's hard not to think in terms of despising the couple and wanting them to suffer for what they did. It's difficult for me to think about justice in pure terms without any element of retribution being part of it. Still...I'd like to think that there are people who are capable of looking at it with a sober eye. I might be in a cloud though, thinking like that.
Rob1_Billion
Posts: 1,300
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 10:00:58 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Justice:

I define justice as 'fairness.' Fairness can be either your intention for committing an action, e.g., "I voted for Rob1billion in the election because I thought it was a just decision," or else it can be an analysis of the ends of a certain situation; "Many thought Rob1billion's victory in the election was unjust since he did not even run." I used to base my system of morality off of virtue, including justice, temperance, prudence, hope, charity, faith, and fortitude, but the subjectiveness of these concepts forced me away. One cannot defend an objective sense of fairness, after all.
kfc
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/13/2011 11:51:16 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/13/2011 10:00:58 AM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Justice:

I define justice as 'fairness.' Fairness can be either your intention for committing an action, e.g., "I voted for Rob1billion in the election because I thought it was a just decision," or else it can be an analysis of the ends of a certain situation; "Many thought Rob1billion's victory in the election was unjust since he did not even run." I used to base my system of morality off of virtue, including justice, temperance, prudence, hope, charity, faith, and fortitude, but the subjectiveness of these concepts forced me away. One cannot defend an objective sense of fairness, after all.

been reading rawls? lol. also you defined justice in terms of fairness and fairness in terms of things being "just". might wanna expand a bit.

otherwise, i am appalled at how many people in this thread take such a retributive stance on justice. say someone rapes your daughter, how does torturing them to death (or otherwise violently punishing them) do anyone (you, them, your daughter) any good? iirc, even though people expect that causing pain to the people that tore their lives apart will give them some sense of closure, it pretty much never actually works that way.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2011 2:56:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/13/2011 11:51:16 PM, belle wrote:
At 6/13/2011 10:00:58 AM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Justice:

I define justice as 'fairness.' Fairness can be either your intention for committing an action, e.g., "I voted for Rob1billion in the election because I thought it was a just decision," or else it can be an analysis of the ends of a certain situation; "Many thought Rob1billion's victory in the election was unjust since he did not even run." I used to base my system of morality off of virtue, including justice, temperance, prudence, hope, charity, faith, and fortitude, but the subjectiveness of these concepts forced me away. One cannot defend an objective sense of fairness, after all.

been reading rawls? lol. also you defined justice in terms of fairness and fairness in terms of things being "just". might wanna expand a bit.

otherwise, I am appalled at how many people in this thread take such a retributive stance on justice. say someone rapes your daughter, how does torturing them to death (or otherwise violently punishing them) do anyone (you, them, your daughter) any good? iirc, even though people expect that causing pain to the people that tore their lives apart will give them some sense of closure, it pretty much never actually works that way.

Belle, I completely agree with you. I doubt I would get any particular relief in knowing the perpetrator would suffer, nor is it a course of justice....however we are human, and our immediate response to a story like this will be emotional, and moral outrage, and a desire to punish hard, but you are right - moral outrage is not a component of justice. Don't be so appalled though, I think it a normal human response out of sincere empathy toward the victim.
Rob1_Billion
Posts: 1,300
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/14/2011 8:08:02 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 6/13/2011 11:51:16 PM, belle wrote:
At 6/13/2011 10:00:58 AM, Rob1_Billion wrote:
Justice:

I define justice as 'fairness.' Fairness can be either your intention for committing an action, e.g., "I voted for Rob1billion in the election because I thought it was a just decision," or else it can be an analysis of the ends of a certain situation; "Many thought Rob1billion's victory in the election was unjust since he did not even run." I used to base my system of morality off of virtue, including justice, temperance, prudence, hope, charity, faith, and fortitude, but the subjectiveness of these concepts forced me away. One cannot defend an objective sense of fairness, after all.

been reading rawls? lol. also you defined justice in terms of fairness and fairness in terms of things being "just". might wanna expand a bit.

It was only my intention to define justice as fairness. My further uses of the word "just" are only to use as examples in sentences. I admit it's a subjective definition but I would challenge someone else to come up with a better one.

otherwise, i am appalled at how many people in this thread take such a retributive stance on justice. say someone rapes your daughter, how does torturing them to death (or otherwise violently punishing them) do anyone (you, them, your daughter) any good? iirc, even though people expect that causing pain to the people that tore their lives apart will give them some sense of closure, it pretty much never actually works that way.

This is the standard for our culture. Our entire justice system is based on the notion that people are going to 'get away with it' if we don't intervene and correct people for their behaviors. This notion is underscored with the claim that if we don't punish them, then they will wrong us again. "...and he's still walking the streets" I always here from victims of crimes where the perpetrator is not imprisoned.
kfc